"Second Life does not allow Nazi iconography as it broadly offensive."

Agreed.

The tricky thing, though, is deciding how much comedy can be involved. Some people would rather it be a completely serious subject and some would rather take a more light-hearted approach. People deal with things in different ways. But who's right?

I, personally, am not offended by much. I am always extremely sad about any loss of liberty, anywhere, for anyone, and have been known to fight passionately for my ideals. But I don't often actually get offended.

One thing that I think we can all agree on, however, is that making fun of the victims of the Holocaust is sickeningly offensive. To everyone. Making fun of people who were physically and emotionally tortured, literally starving to death and, in some cases, lab animals of some of the most horrific medical experiments I have ever heard of, is not funny. We can all agree.

Thus, logic dictates that making fun of the oppressors should be. Right?

Well, who knows. Really, it's tricky. You can't please everyone on this subject, that's for sure.

I agree with Lo and those people, though. It is all about intent. I don't think anything should be hidden or covered up. I think people should be able to talk about and make and do whatever they want. The line really should only be Intent. And if you don't -know- the intent, you should probably assume that it's benign.

Speaking of, who owns the Maxim sim?

Well, since Nazi imagery is banned from SL, I'm going to go a step further and request that IBM, or any of its logos, be banned from SL as well.

Scheduling Nazi trains, rations, supplies, managing prisoners, scheduling execution times, managing funds, cross referencing and tracking down jewish ancestry to the 5th antecedent of entire countries in weeks or days, and fighting the large scale war would have been entirely impossible without the personal supervision of Thomas Watson (head of IBM, awarded a medal by Hitler) and his individually tailored "Business Solutions" (IBM was so successful because it anticipated needs) through his front company, Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen Gesellschaft.

IBM represents capital gain over human life and the willingness to institute and facilitate genocide in order to reach that goal. Without their solutions, the whole thing could not have happened with even a shadow of the efficacy the Nazis achieved.

If Linden Labs doesn't ban IBM along with Nazi imagery, then they are being completely hypocritical.

I wonder how many IBM parts they are running their servers on?

I have absolutely no problem with the idea of banning/making illegal skinhead/nazi/white supremist rallies and organizations. They make me ashamed to have the color of skin I do.

I also have no problem with banning groups or pro nazi/etc from SL.

Hypocritical? Perhaps. In fact, most likely yes considering my other beliefs. However, I have no inner qualms about my hypocracy. I embrass it like a giant confusing teddy bear.

Great finds Juro. I love etymology.

I would point out that the use of "gay" meaning to "suck", was already in use in the late 70s. At least where I grew up in the upper midwest. It was usually boys, therefore I always took it as sort of an indirect slur towards homosexuals. For a lot of the boys I grew up with, homosexual = bad, therefore I think that they were attaching a homophobic label to things they thought were sucky.

I always opted for "that's sad", "bogus, or "bunk". At least those terms didn't marginalize a group of people.

YES, it's a terrible thing, stepping on our "free speech" and all, I seriously agree. Like the giant phalic symbols that have long since materialized in SL, we should be able to use A N Y symbol to communicate visually, verbally, however we damned well please, right??

Look at the context tho; how many "WWII memorial" parcels will there really be compared to god-only-knows-what that LL probably isn't crazy about seeing on CNN. And even tho, as Juro pointed out, the swastika doesn't JUST refer to Hitler's movement, that's what it is most commonly associated with, that's what grandma and grandma see and phone their congressman about. I don't blame LL for wanting to put on a good "public face" in this respect... I mean, as long as this isn't just the beginning of them "censoring things", we have rampant sex and violence in any way you can imagine, BUT no nazi-emblems, I don't think it entirely detracts from and censors the SL I experience at least...

Do I personally consider any and all "Nazi iconography" offensive? No, but I do estimate that at least a good majority of what I could see in Secondlife featuring swastikas would be offensive to me, and many other people. I really don't think I'm going to "miss out" on any of the good, inovative, well thought out uses of the symbol, I think I'd see a bunch of idiots using the symbol to TRY to offend people in some misguided attempt to get attention, and I think that's what LL is trying to curb.

Wow - I learn something everyday in these forums. Interesting, I never knew that the registration/census of people was so organized in Germany at the time, let alone thanks to good old "All American" IBM. Disconcerting, because they asked about race in the last US census, among many other very personal questions and had a pretty heavy hand to enforce responses).

Actually, that's a link to a very good web site.

Thanks Chance.

/*** sorry for the momentary hijack

I was too lazy to find detailed information, but there is a book that explicitly details just how deeply embedded IBM was in the operations of the Nazis. It's called "IBM and the Holocaust," or something very similar. If you get the audio book, be prepared for the most annoying sounding author ever.

That IS a fine line. And it gets down to the point where there really isn't a majority view on whether an approach is acceptable or not. Not everyone thought Hogan's Heroes was funny, but apparently it was okay enough to be broadcast and remain in broadcast. I, personally, made it a point never to watch it beyond one viewing. Nothing, just NOTHING about the Nazi regime strikes my funny bone, ever, ever, ever.

I don't think LL should be expected to take the tack of reviewing every possible instance of Nazi "humor" in the game as if it were a show scheduled for network broadcast. Obviously, Nazi "humor" or Nazi "sexuality" isn't a part of the mainstream yet, and they know that. They could get into the same quagmires over any sort of stereotypical depiction in the game, and it is easier and wiser for them to simply disallow anything which is, generally, broadly offensive.


There's a problem with trying to use intent as the barometer. Someone's intent - with anything, not just this particular situation - may be perfectly innocent, but the effects still offensive, dangerous, or damaging, depending on what issue is at hand. They may have no intention of causing harm, but in fact, do cause harm. That's generally a result of the person not being fully educated or aware of what the results of his or her actions might be.

The solution is not to allow something merely because the person didn't "intend" to be offensive to large groups of people. Nor does it mean that large groups of people then have the obligation to not be offended. The solution is to explain to the person that the material is offensive, and to remove the material.

Heaven knows many a celebrity has taken a step back in his/her career by such gaffes. Ted Danson in blackface comes to mind. Or the brouhaha over Prince Harry - who definitely should have known better - wearing a Nazi uniform to a party. I am pretty sure Prince Harry had no ill intent at all when he did that, (and neither did Ted Danson, who did it for his girlfriend at the time, Whoopi Goldberg). But it was stupid, and Harry's intent is irrelevant. He just should not do that, and will likely never do it again. Fortunately, LL isn't as stupid as Prince Harry.

A person may think a statement or expression is harmless, but if a large proportion of the population is offended by it, hurt by it, damaged by it, pained by it, stigmatized by it, and/or stereotyped adversely by it, then the statement or expression isn't really harmless, regardless of the intent of the person who made the gaffe.

coco

P.S. That's interesting, Nolan, I think it is very thoughtful of you that you did that. I have a long-standing campaign with my teenage girls to keep them from using "gay" in that derogatory sense, along with "retarded." But you know, it's pretty much a losing battle in the current culture (though I may do more good with my girls than I know). Even I make the mistake of sometimes thinking in my brain, "oh, what a retard," when someone acts idiotic. Er . . . I believe I just did the same thing with "idiot," which used to be a reasonable term for people of a certain IQ level. Language is an ever-changing thing, isn't it?

Eggy:

You and me, we are worlds apart. My Father, and all my uncles but one, served proudly in WWII, two of those Uncles served in the European theater and fought against the Nazi Regime. My Father, fought in the Pacific Theater against the Japanese Regime. Do I believe that the Nazi Iconlogy is offensive, or should be banned, etc et al? Well, let me ask you this, if the Spanish invaded your country 60 years ago, and rounded up 2 million porteguese people and slaughtered them just because they were portegeuse, would you feel that the Spanish Flag and any other ICONOLOGY they used 60 years ago, might still be unwelcomed in your culture today?

It's not about whether you think it to be offensive or whether I think it offensive. Let's take a look at it from the perspective of the 24 million jews that were killed and the loved ones they left behind; shall we?

The Nazi iconology whether LL is truly worried about being offensive or not to anyone in SL, quite frankly will cause problems for LL to sell their product in certain countries. That's the bottom line in their decision, but the bottom line in yours shouldn't be because none of your family or countrymen were involved in WWII, instead it should be from the perspective of those that had to suffer through 24 million of their countrymen died, merely because they were jewish. Sorry, but that's the perspective we should all look at it from.



Thanks!

This guy I knew once wore a Hitler costume to a Halloween party. Guests were shocked, but his response was, "So it's only okay to dress up as pretend monsters?"

Okay, let's look at it from their perspective. Say I'm Jewish and I want to build a Holocaust museum on SL. I mean, it's a great venue because I can reach a worldwide audience. The only problem is that since Nazi imagery has been banned, the Nazis in my museum have just become a non-goose-stepping, non-heiling, logoless, faceless enemy. Now that's educational.

(Granted this is an extreme example, but do you get my point? Banning symbolism is a vacant use of power; banning action or usage of that symbolism is something entirely different.)

This is an interesting one - there is clearly a difference between people making a white-only island say (which would be legal) and a holocaust museum (which may not be).

Nazi imagery has often been used for humour, for shock and for fetish purposes.

Think of the British "classic" family viewing TV comedy 'Allo 'Allo. The character of Holga is quite fetishy - the gestapo were played for humour with leather coats and boots.

http://www.coldcut.com/video/aa/

Would 'Allo 'Allo be banned?

Reminds me of that Python sketch where the guy goes into a tobacconist's shop and is reading phrases out of a Hungarian-English phrasebook. But the phrases are all dirty. Thing is, he doesn't speak any English, though, so he doesn't know that what he's saying is wrong. So he gets carted off to jail and doesn't even know why.

This is related - its about historical re-enactment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/4424035.stm

Can war games cause serious offence?

A spokesman for the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said: "We do not want all traces of Hitler's Germany to be ignored or removed.

"That clearly goes against the idea of remembering the Holocaust so it could never happen again.

"So where such events educate people, it must be worth doing.

"The difference would be if education somehow slipped into trivialisation or worse, glorification."

Education becoming trivial? Wha----??? Never.

I've been thinking about this and I guess it's a bit like the Confederate Flag issue. Linden Lab allows the display of Confederate flags, which offend just as many people as do any Nazi regalia. Therefore, Linden Lab either ought not ban Nazi symbolism, or it should protect the sensibilities of everyone by banning Confederate and Communist flags as well. That would be the fair solution to this. The only problem with it is that it is illegal to display Nazi symbols in many European nations, and if Linden Lab undertakes certain business steps in Europe, they will - as have Google and several other internet based enterprises - have to take heed of those laws.
If you are doing something like making a replica of the Hindenburg or maybe a WWII German fighter plane, for instance, or if for some bizarre reason you want to hang a picture of Hitler over your SL fireplace, inside your SL house, you should be able to, for reasons of historical accuracy or personal privacy, but making a replica of a concentration camp or flying Nazi flags in your yard in a publicly accessible sim is going to be upsetting to so many people that it is tantamount to griefing, and that is where they ought to draw the line.

While symbols are not universal and connote different things to different people and cultures, the symbols associated with Nazi reign are STILL used to terrorize people in many countries. Because this tactic is used to intimidate others, even in SL and on the SL forums where I recently saw someone use 'Jew' as a verb (absolutely a slur of the worst kind) I would be adamantly opposed to seeing nazi symbols, uniforms, etc. If people want some kind of holocaust memorial, let the survivors and their families build it.

If I am in the population of a group that was marginalized and brutalized, the last thing I would want to see is the symbol of that brutalization in my gameplay. I would find it further offensive if I were told that I were just being overly sensitive for responding negatively.

I have seen hate speech and symbols used in SL. Because this is something that happens, to not take a stand on this is to encourage more of the same. Freedom of speech is wonderful, but freedom from intimidation and aggression is so valuable that there are times we choose societally to limit free speech. One cannot, for example, shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre because to do so would cause bodily harm to people.

A common sense approach balances the good to be gained with the harm that might be done. In every instance, the measure of that harm must be articulated by those who encounter it, not by those who intend to cause it. Were I interested in creating wwII reenactments, or a holocaust museum, or artwork that used swastikas, I would be sure I had the opinions of the community that might be brutalized in mind so as not to be re-victimizing those families who suffered during and after the holocaust. A rl friend of mine who plays this game lost many relatives in the holocaust. I don't think he'd be happy to be running into swastikas on his way to the mall.

But many concentration camps still exist, and are museums.

You can go to Auschwitz (I've been).

The debate is on the *purpose* of the build.

Education, not glorification.

I think any real Nazi-like activity would be a white-only private island - this is easily doable.

If it wasn't on the grid, and was invitation-only they could even run educational classes for their members.

Real neo-nazis aren't going to be stupid enough to dress up as Hitler or bomb South I - they'll stick to the TOS.

The idea of segregated communities is a common one in some sections of the far right. We have the tools to make fantasy communities.

that leads to an interesting point as well, David. And that's that the Communist flags which have been seen jokingly around SL recently (W-hat has a communist regime, as well as WWIIOL, and even Midnight City did it for a little while), why aren't those banned?

It's said that Stalin was actually worse than Hitler if you count how bad they were in how many people they killed (granted Hitler's treatment of the ones he killed was much worse), but all kinds of communist flags can and have been seen around Second Life in their original context of a Russian communism.

Again, I think what happened here is regional, generally, most people who play second life are from the old Allies. And since Russia was a part of the allies, Stalin's horrible acts were downgraded and covered up a lot so a lot of people either don't know about this or know about this but aren't so emotionally effected by it (after all they haven't made any tear jerker blockbuster movies about it). So it could be said that it's not actually the item itself or the acts that are being banned, it's what the people's reactions to it that's bad for LL.

After all, one thing I notice people continually forget is that Second Life is a business, and like all businesses money is most important. People get offended by nazi imagery and they get turned off to the world so it's banned. People don't get offended by communist imagery so they don't care, and neither does LL, no one says a thing.

So really the best reason for them to ban this stuff is just as Jeska said: "[it's] broadly offensive". And LL has every right TOO do that, after all since we're under their terms of service and all that.

I'm sure if most of the user base found the colour blue to be offensive that'd be banned as well.

What if you're doing it in some absurd way that couldn't possibly be in support of Nazis?

Like this (warning: will probably turn you into a villain or something)

Or this:

The Producers

Do we need to get our own forum to talk about The Producers?

or this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4170083.stm

Uh huh. And how's your friend feel about your forum signature?

"Work Will Set You Free (or get you starved to death faster). ~ Perse ':-} "

You do know where that's from, right? Here it is, over the gates of Auschwitz:
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/tours/auschwitz/arbeit.html

Personally, I don't care about it, but your use of it kinda contradicts what you said about swastikas, y'know?

Anyway, I think the only worthwhile reason for banning the swastika here is, as others said, because LL wants to do business in countries where it's illegal to display a swastika. I guess the gang down at LL must have discussed it in that light and decided it had to go. Too bad . . . puts a damper on historical recreation and free speech. Also -- worse, really -- taboos impart banned symbols or words with even more power to cause upset.

I would start with the millions of americans who dont know where Iraq is.
But to make it really easy, you could also start in the vast majority of countries that did not take part in any of the "world" wars.
I would hazard a guess that in my own country a lot of people know zilch about it, if only because they live out in the boonies, happily farming their land like they have been doing since the middle ages, blissfully unaware of the world around them. Some places here dont even have electricity or running water, you know... and a lot of farmers think a mere tractor is a fancy luxury

Yes, I do consider all nazi iconography offensive. The symbols are still actively used by hate groups. The difference between an encyclopedia and SL is that SL is entertainment, not education.

I see no need to display these symbols unless they are used to promote ideologies of hate and therefore they should be illegal. This is nothing new. They have been outlawed in Germany since 1945 for example.

I feel that SL is doing the right thing by banning this iconography. Being displayed in this enviornment can do no good at all. And yeah my country was involved. One grandfather had a numbers tattooed on his arm and the other was KIA. Letting things like this slide opens up the whole pandora's box all over again.