To all the people who want the complainers to shut up.

It's really simple- if there was no negative publicity fueled from a company failing to deliver what it priomised, there would be no incentive for that company to try and pevent the shortcoming from happening to begin with.

You and a bunch of other people are all pissed at the people complaining ... why are you ignoring the problem? Why are you ignoring that people are spending money for a product that isn't being delivered? Of course they're dissapointed. Ok so maybe you're not. They are, they come here, they've complained about it. SL is being put under pressure. This is the driving force of the market. The bottom line is the intentive. Cash.

If you went to a gas station and gassed your car up with water and made it 6 blocks down the road before it died, amongst a sea of other consumers who had the same problem... wouldn't you be trying to deterr future consumers in line at the pump?

Wouldn't you be on a forum like this at the company website saying WTF?

And if the company just responded with "Well try a different fuel grade." wouldn't you be pissed off?

Well maybe not. But hey ... maybe you're just not pissed off because you have a couple of cars. Maybe I shouldn't be pissed off because I have no life? ... that logic is revolting. The games name is SECOND LIFE. Duh?

Keman Dingo

One question.......... do you honestly believe all the negative posting helps the situation?

I agree. There haven't been nearly enough threads. Let's put some pressure on LL!

Too much Glass Dick, not enough problem solving!

Destroy the Glass Dick mentality of the evol corporation!

I agree also. The new Second Life Users Union will be holding its organizational meeting Wednesday at 6 PM PDT. The group has been formed and has an open enrollment. The meeting will be held via IM over the group channel.

Please join and plan to attend. There is strength in numbers.

You'll get 2 dozen people. Half of them won't follow through on their threats, and the others will "cancel" their 9.95 lifetime accounts.

This is, of course, assuming you can log in... hehe

LF

The lindens know they have a problem. They are fixing it. They are aware that it is a bummer that you can't log in. Unless they're dumb as a box of rocks, I think they grasped that.. mm... 2 days ago. Continuing to verbally harrass them doesn't get their job done any faster.



Why are you? The problem is that SL is growing faster than they expected. The solution is to spend a LOT OF TIME rewriting the ENTIRE BACKEND of the system so that you and your friends can continue being blingy and dancy and bandwidthy.

It takes TIME. and EFFORT. And usually people work better when there aren't 400 angry, ignorant people threatening all sorts of verbal and physical attacks on you and your family.



People can do it in a more polite manner than they are doing now. A simple, concise, polite, non-condescending letter would get better mileage than "OMFGWTFBBQ FIX IT OR I QUITZOR!!!!!!!11111111111111111234978" on a public forum.



No, because if you're stupid enough to put water in your tank to begin with, maybe the gas station isn't the problem... you can't smell the gas fumes when you take the nozzle off the hook?

Putting water in your tank is a much more serious situation than not being able to log into an entertainment medium.



Perhaps, but I wouldn't be yelling at them, demanding some sort of compensation, blaming them for all available problems, and so on.



No, I'd probably laugh, because "try a different fuel grade" is a REALLY great response to "I filled my gas tank with water."


Patience in all things.

LF

Market pressure like this helps when the problem is that a company is not listening or not making an effort. That is not the problem here.

Every person in the dev team is now at LL working on a WEEKEND to essentially redesign the back end of the system in a real hurry so that it's up as soon as possible. They all love SL just as much as us, maybe more. They all hurt whenever they can't get the game up for us folks. They've done everything they can to make SL the coolest thing ever (and in general, they've done a damn good job), and now it's blown up in their faces despite their best efforts.

That's a lot of pressure on them right now, all just from their own minds. Now you want to add your own pressure? People snap under this kind of stress. This is real people we're talking about here, not just some random corporate entity with a single name that we can put on it, "LL". It's not just one big person that's an idiot, it's actually a bunch of real live people just trying to make a living, and they're doing their best to fix this problem that no one could have forseen.

If I were one of them and I read some of the stuff here, I'd probably feel really hurt. Come on... they work to the bone just on a regular basis trying to get SL to be really great, and now in a crisis, rather than supporting them, all their users turn against them and tell them that they're completely incompetent. That's the kind of thing that can make people snap, and I'm amazed at the restraint they're showing in not responding to all this abuse.

Here's a quote from my longer post in the Login Problems thread.

"Computers are not god, and their programmers certainly aren't. If you want a miraculous standard of service I suggest you tithe to TBN and watch the Benny Hinn show."

Linden Labs provide a far more reliable service than much other internet related services. So I unapologetically say to the whiners... "shut yer yaps."

nothing wrong with venting, it's a healthy release, and it is fustrating and no one faults us for speaking our minds, but we don't need half the threads on this board about it do we?

This is a forum about SL, not all of us can play SL right now, I'm at my job and this is as much fun as I can have right now. I can't log in either.

I'd prefer to discuss things related to the good part of SL and see what the players have to say on other topics.

We got the point already, you can't log in and are pissed (yank version of word), perhaps we can have a little fun while we wait???

3 days now and no SL despite numerous attempts on serveral computers.
A 10min window before I was booted out during a TP doesn't count.

This is unacceptable and with this kind of loss in service, people should be screaming. Since SL charges are based on time (monthly land tier fees), then in all fairness, they should offer some compensation for this loss. People run real money making businesses in SL. Therefore, they lose real money due to not being able to access their SL accounts.

I believe the Lindens should have stabilized the core problems that existed prior to adding such window dressing as video streaming. Which does not work very well at all. (frame rate is not sustained and drops to levels unwatchable for the most part). QuickTime is the absolute worse of all the streaming technologies for reasons too numerous to mention here.

It's almost become a gym like mentality. They sign up more clients than the infrastructure can support. At present there are constant lineups (login queue) to use the equipment, if you can even get to use them at all.

EB

yeah but the cable company and satellite tv company dontt give compensation when they are down, neither does the phone company and they charge for constant service.

Classic pessimistic thinking. Has it ever occurred to you that LL might actually want SL to work for reasons other than fear of loss? Every Linden I've ever spoken with is incredibly passionate about SL, and exceedingly proud when they witness others getting joy out of it. I'd call that incentive enough.

Do you always have such little faith in your fellow human beings?


Who says anyone is ignoring the problem? I'm sorry if you're not capable of understanding that it's possible to be upset about the problems while simultaneously having the maturity to recognize people who complain just for the sake of complaining as what they are. I'm just as disappointed when SL has problems as anyone else, but I'm more disappointed by all the chronic complainers who find feed on such problems as their excuse to come out of the woodwork.

Trust me, the fastest way to get someone to fix a problem for you is not to bitch at them until they do. The best thing to do is to be polite and firm at the same time. People work better and faster when they're in good moods. They work sloppily when they're being yelled at.

Sometimes I wonder if what's really going on is that some people have become so comfortable in their self-defined roles as chronic complainers that they have actually fooled themselves into believing that their complaining is for a good cause while their subconscious minds are fully aware that complaining is actually detrimental. This way from their point of view they get the best of both worlds. On the surface they get to talk all about how they are benefitting the rest of us by applying pressure to enact change, while in secretly in places they don't talk about they know that the complaining actually serves to slow down the repair process which is what enables them to continue having things to complain about. Psych majors, want to back me up here? I only taught consumer psychology for 6 years.

Keman, you keep spouting incentive, incentive, incentive. I must wonder, have you ever owned a business? I myself am a business owner and I know hundreds of other business owners. I have yet to meet a single one who views money as his or her most important incentive for going to work every day. Putting a smile on a customer's face is all the incentive any business owner ever needs.

Sure I've made money in my business, but if that were all I cared about I'd be out of business pretty quick. No one goes into a particular business just because they want to make money. You can make money at anything. Starting a business, especially one as difficult and risky as LL, takes passion for things far less tangible than dollars and cents. People start businesses for one of two reasons. Either they they have a passion for the product they are selling or they simply have passion for the act of running a business. In either case they surround themselves with people who are passionate about the product.

Success in business is all about passion. Making money is a side effect. Those who view it the other way around never last.


No. The first thing I'd do is politely but firmly make the owner aware of the problem. I would present myself in such a manner that he or she would have no choice but to realize I am an intelligent, articulate, and mature person who should be listened to. I would define the problem, respectfully express my dissatisfaction, and firmly ask what he or she planned to do to resolve the situation. If his or her response were not satisfactory, then I would take my complaint to the next aprorpiate level.

If my car had been damaged due to the gas station's neglegence, I might sue for repair costs. If there appeared to be a danger to the public, I would make the apropriate authorities aware.

What I absolutely would not do would be to expect that birtching and moaning would solve anything. In all conflicts, you are unbeatable if you rise above. If you lower yourself to the level of a child throwing a temper tantrum, you'll rarely get very far. Do you think Gahndi would have changed the world as he did had he been out in the street throwing rocks at the Brittish? He only won his cause through maturity and patience, and that is why he is revered.


Doubtful. I have yet to see a gas station with a web forum, but assuming one in fact did exist, I don't think it would be the most effective platform to get me the results I might be looking for. That is of course unless the effect I were looking for were not any real solution to the problem at hand, but simply to rally other complainers around me so I could feel more a part of something. Forums are quite effective at fostering co-misery. They're not so effective at actually solving problems.


Well, of course I would be pissed off. I'd like to think though that I'd be mature enough not to flip out so that I might handle the situation in a manner that would actually get me some results.

I'm reminded here of a Western I saw years ago in which Sam Elliott elloqunetly proclaimed, "Injuns don't see no point in killin' crazy folks, not even white ones". In other words, no one takes you seriously when you lose your cool. Irate customers are easy to dismiss as nutjobs. However, people have no choice but to respect you when you maintain your diginity in the face of frustration and anger. People who act maturely get results. People who rant and rave rarely do.


Ooh, you were almost doing well up until the little jab with the no life comment. I almost thought you had a legitimate point you were trying to make. The insult more or less proves that your goal here is not to understand why certain people are wise enough not to complain endlessly, but instead to try to get a rise out of them so you can bring them down to your level. Sorry you didn't succeed. Better luck next time.

For what it's worth though, it's not that people who don't like complainers aren't pissed off about the same problems as the complainers. It's just that they're mature enough to understand that complaining won't solve anything, and wise enough to realize that the only thing it might do is slow things down even further. The real question is do you actually want the problems solved? If the answer is yes, then complaining will not help you achieve this goal. If the answer is no, and your only purpose is to complain for its own sake, then I guess you're acheiving your goal perfectly.

This is incorrect, at least in my area. Time Warner Cable as well as Sprint both offer refunds/credits of lost service time if you bring it to their attention. I expect no less here.

I think it's apparent that the Lindens are at least as passionate about this system and its potential as are their customers.

I've worked around some ferociously bright, organized, and committed system administrators who managed server plants that were in no way as complicated as what LL is obviously running. Sometimes, despite their best efforts, stuff just happened.

Unforeseen logjams as surging demand for a particular resource stressed the system in unexpected ways. Minor dot-version upgrades to arcane utilities suddenly and mysteriously choking the mailservers. Periodic overnighters, frantic troubleshooting, major pizza consumption at 3am, and much bleary-eyed ranting at workstations.

In my experience, anywhere there's a system which combines both complexity and flexibility, these days and weeks just happen. And I think it's safe to say that SL is about as complex, and about as flexible, as the online gaming industry gets.

OTOH, I think it's a sign of SL's growth that folks with less of an early-adopter perspective and more of a consumer orientation are beginning to come on board. They don't know (or, aren't particularly sympathetic to) LL's record for innovation, and/or they don't care about system design and administration issues....they simply want to know why their purchase doesn't work as advertised.

It's a rough period, but I'm confident that things will get better, and that the wait is worthwhile.

Just my $0.02

-- yoshi

yeah all kinda purple n wavy Torley

Complaining about something were paying for, but isnt available to us, isnt just important, its should be obviously our duty to demand decent service for our dollar. Some of us pay alot more then others, maybe that will turn up the volume nob on the anger I dunno. But I know one thing, that unless people are actually willing to follow through, and actually quit SL, or tier down, actually strike at the Linden bank account, you can forget getting any real action. Seems working on weekends to help the users get into game was about the farthest thing from any Lindens mind. From what I'm reading, Phillip has been circling overhead playing god, in some floating sim at 36,000,000m. So I think we might be able to say he's just a bit out of touch now for righteous prioritization. Who will care about us? Anyone? And if we dont speak are we going to be heard anyway? Is anyone paying attention? These are the questions I want answered. Before I go on payin this kind of cake......

Heh. All this crap about being patient and understanding etc. Clearly this is all from people who have no understanding of how customer service works.

But. Fine. It goes both ways. Want me to be understanding? Be understanding back. Every day this is a problem, refund my account. I pay $100 a month, and right now that's for a service I can't use. I keep asking the Lindens for this and thus far they're ignoring me or only responding to portions of my email that don't involve the request for refund.

I want a refund on my dwell too .. this isn't a "too many people online" problem as they make it out to be. Noones online. And if there's a HUGE change in dwell as I suspect there will be, then there's all the proof I need.

Hey I know! Lets start up the "If you don't like it, leave!" mentality. Which I'm fine with .. I just call up the credit card company and make a stop payment. I'm not leaving just yet though. I /LIKED/ the way the system has been up till now. Thus why I was willing to shell out the cash. But .. something happened. And that had better change, else there won't be threats of leaving.

Why? Cuz you can't leave if you're not there.

Keman Dingo

Caveat emptor.
You signed up for this shit when you read the fucking EULA. I guess life lessons come hard today, but at least now you know not to glaze over the important document that binds your soul to satan.

Heh. In this day and age, fewer and fewer even know what Caveat Emptor means.

Why should they?

VISA is in my favor. They don't give a crap about an EULA and neither do I when it comes to payment for services not rendered.

MMORPG's are interesting. They're a lot like an online auction house. The same chain reaction that makes them popular and MORE popular can also swing into the opposite direction. Would you put an item up for auction on ebay if you suspected there would be no or little target audience browisng the site? Would you browse a site that had no items for sale? Chain reaction, chain reaction, POOF.

If you log in and find noone on, would you log in again? Would someone else log in later if there was noone to log in to? As quick as this place became popular, it can become unpopular. Whe it becomes unpopular, there's no money to pay for the infrstructure. The MMORPG world is a very perilous world IMO.

Without the MM or O there is no MMORPG.

Keman Dingo

You're right! I hadn't even begun to notice that!
Okay, I detract all previous statements, societal collapse is inevitable because I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt that they weren't uptight illiterates who had nothing better to throw their hard-earned cash at. I guess complaining that the entertainment we took the risk to pay for isn't as empowering as we thought it initially was is now the vogue. Cool, I love the new culture of irresponsibility.
Good day, sir.

/new/ culture of irresponsibility?

Keman Dingo

Yes a refund would be good, or credit of some sort.

ooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh STFU. If I am paying for something. I want it. slip a few hundred extra linden in the pay this week and I'm all good.