Poser clothes being sold in SL?

Heres a question and /or observation

I own PS7 and PS Cs and recently obtained Poser 6

through looking at the many free & purchased download 'textures' for poser I noticed by 'texture' in poser its actualy a template!

with some stretching or shrinking in the transform layer option...you can make these ready made 'textures' fit the SL templates exactly.

Now...call me Mrs Skeptical BUT I see sooo many superb & brilliant clothing & hair & poses even now sold on one package....pose, clothes & hair...hmm?

Now I am NOT getting moralistic here...after all i reckon 90% of SL sellers of merchandise are selling stuff that technically they shouldnt...be it a poster of Homer Simpson to some porn and clothing with the logo of some famous brand or as small as downloading a fabric texture of the net and using it in a clothing design to sell in SL when that texture wasnt meant for 'commercial' use' and yeah textures too period...i doubt theres very many ppl who havent bent the rules to some degree and i include myself

HOWEVER...

what I do find a little upsetting is..prices will fall dramaticlly now as the amount of time & skill once required to produce a QUALITY & detailed outfit which ( i think ) is now so easy and not even the stores 'work' which will drive down the prices of those who DID spend hours designing PS stuff.

I dont object to prices being driven down by competition thats part & parcel of a growing industry & commerce BUT for the long standing fashion designer who are loosing customers to the 'Poser uploaders' it must REALLY stink and be anoying as hell.

I dont sell clothes or anything related to clothes BUT i DID upload a poser 'texture' I had made fit my template and yes sure enough there it is...and what did I do? very little.....


Over to the guys who this effects.............


( sorry i know Ive thrown a cat in the bag by this but think some-one should point out the obvious)

I presume that those templates are copyrighted, so selling them in SL would be a TOS violation as well as illegal.

Besides, folks pay for originality.

these templates are ready made and very nice detailed dresses skirts underwear you name it you can get it and thats why I assume lots are reading this but few are responding?

I have seen poser clothes being sold in SL and yes they are copywritten but hey? seriously..most ppl dont care we can see this all over SL with sports labels being ripped off & copied as well as Art work being sold as pictures for decoration etc

SL is covered with copy written stuff...the only time it gets messy is when its another person/residents copy written work...then its suddenyl not OK

Again im not raising a moral issue but theres so much hypocracy in SL were copywrites are concerned but me like countless others ignore it for the most part as everyone else seems to be selling it and getting away with it ( what ever it is)

But i think it goes a little bit too far when ppl simply use a template not designed by them and just make it fit & sell it as their own work

Personally, I don't find it a problem. In fact I hope more people do this ( apart from the TOS violation ) because it will make MY clothes even more unique.

"Ripped off" stuff has a way of destroying itself. Once people notice that three different vendors are selling the same thing and they get into competition with each other, they either go out of business, or you can buy the outfits for L$1 in the end

Myself, I don't sell clothes to increase my linden wealth ( that is what GOM is for ) ... I get a genuine pleasure when I run into someone who is wearing one of my outfits.

However, I am sure the people who make a living from making clothing legitimately could be affected, and for that reason alone, it is a shame.

AB

I know I've seen at least one outfit gakked straight from a Poser model (the bra/skirt thing that comes with the Sylfie for Aiko pack--can't remember what it's called). Not much to do about it I suppose except to not buy it. Poser clothing and honest-to-goodness 'handmade' clothing is fairly easy to tell apart if you're familiar with Poser at all, at least. The stuff people make specifically for the SL avatars generally just looks better.

Well,

I guess I was naive I think what Ive learnt from this post and the amount of 'views' and lack of 'replies' is thats its common place in SL and that also explains an awful lot to me too...

I couldnt REALLY understand how so many hundereds of stores & designers could create such detailed & quality clothing...creating THAT level of clothing in Photoshop takes years of experience and it just didnt make sense to me how so many people were able to create that level of quality, now it does and thats 'Second Life' I suppose.

Now I know its 'accepted' and kinda general knowledge then obviously i over reacted LOL

I think you were right to bring up this subject. However, I'd be less than honest if I didn't point out what an offensive statement you just made. You''ve basically implied that most of the hard working designers in SL must all be thieves and ripoff artists. Yes, it's true that there are plagiarists in SL, just as there are everywhere else, but I simply can't understand why you think that's the norm. Why do you assume that just because something looks good in SL, it must have been taken from somewhere else? If that's the way you think, then why do you not also assume that the same kind of thing was done to create the Poser clothing you're talking about? Afterall, as you pointed out, creating clothing for Poser is almost the exact same process as creating clothing for SL. Has it occurred to you that the people in the Poser community who create clothing, skins, etc. are some of the very same people who create things in the SL community? I know many people who do both.

If you want to "REALLY understand how so many hundereds of stores & designers could create such detailed & quality clothing," I'll tell you. SL, more than any other online community I know of, attracts artists. Creative and talented people tend to gravitate towards SL in droves. Yes, it takes a lot of Photoshop skill to create realistic looking clothing (or anything else), but it doesn't have to take years, and there's absolutely no reason why hundreds or even thousands of peolple in SL can't all do it. Remember, Photoshop is just a tool. A talented artist is a talented artist, no matter what canvas he or she happens to be painting on, and the SL templates are no different.

I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but I created my first photo-realistic piece of clothing in SL within my first week. It was a red satin bra, and it took all of about an hour of experimentation before I made it work. After going through the problem-solving process to make that one artical of clothing, I felt confident I could make anything from that point on, and I was right. Obviously, my SL-specific skills have improved since then due to practice and experience, but that doesn't mean I wasn't making good-looking, photo-realsitc stuff right from the beginning. The same is true for many, many artists I know in SL. It's simply not that hard if you already know Photoshop, and you've got artistic ability.

Even if it did take years though, as you're saying, why do you assume that designers in SL couldn't already have those years behind them when they come in? SL is only 2 years old, whereas the average resident is about 30. I can promise you that most people don't enter SL and THEN decide to just all of a sudden become artistic. 99.9% of the time it goes the other way around. Artistic people become attracted to SL because it is a place where they can put their talents to use. Not to toot my own horn, but just to use myself as an example for a minute, I was first winning art contests back when I was in elementary school, 20+ years ago. No one at the time had ever even imagined yet that computers would one day become a new canvas for serious artists or that there would ever be such a thing as the internet or VR, but 20 some years later, when I stumbled across SL, it wasn't much of a leap to learn quickly how to utilize it as a new canvas to which to apply a lifetime of artistic experience. I'm sure the same is true for the majority of content creators.

To summarize, I'm sure you're right that there are SOME people in SL who steal stuff from Poser and claim it as their own, just as there are those who steal from all kinds of sources, but those people are absolutely not the majority or anything close to it. All those hundreds of shop owners that you simply can't believe are just that good, well the answer is they are. Those are the people that SL attracts. I've been here for 20 months now, and what keeps me here is the same thing that attracted me to it in the beginning, the feeling of being surrounded by talent. SL is full of creative, skillful people who are a pleasure to be around. It's a beautiful world, created by beautiful people.

Plagiarism is a serious issue, and I'm glad you brought it up, but in the future, it would be nice if you could address it without implying that everyone's doing it. Otherwise, all you're doing is insulting us all, because, all modesty aside, whether you choose to believe it or not, we really are that good.

*applauds*

Awesome!

Okay here's the thing - I'm totally offended. Theft does happen on so many levels in all of these online worlds that its almost silly. Whether it be as simple as never coming up with your own ideas but simply reinventing the ideas of others because you lack creativity (this being my personal pet peeve when I can tell someone used the "new items forum" to get ideas rather than coming up w/ thier own), or copyright infringement, or straight up texture theft. It happens and 9 out of 10 times there is absolutely nothing you can do about it because there's a fine gray area. And we can sit and balk about it all the live long day.

But, there are a lot of very talented artists in this world in particular, which is where I take offense. Right off the top of my head I can send a round of applause to Torrid Midnight, Mistress Midnight, Ambyance Anubis, Starley Therian, Tommy Fairplay, Jade Jenson, Cami and Kimberly Cooper - Nevermore, L&F Gecko, Pixel Dolls. And I know for a fact that I'm leaving a TON of people out and if I did leave you out, take no harm in it, there's not near enough room here to list you all.

Either way, these names came to my head first because in my mind, they're the leaders. They set the pace. And as a designer myself, I can usually see the difference between something that was tweaked to fit and something that was specifically made for a SL avatar. I also guarentee as a shopper only, you'll see the difference as well, you just don't know what exactly you're looking at. But there is a reason that some peeps will always have better traffic and make higher sales.

I'll also tell you that it takes me twice the time to transfer one of my There.com designs into SL than it does to create new. And I'm sure that using a Poser texture would work but the level of creativity and the "perfect fit" would lack to some extent. Thats why it wouldn't affect the "real" designers.

And as far as prices falling due to a lack of needed talent...look at the price scale now. The best of the best don't charge much as it is. They know they'll sell more copies than the average or below average so they don't have a need to bank on a single sale.

Anyways, I've said too much because I'm currently being "single white femaled" by another designer and am a little pissy from the get go. Bottom line is, it will all come full circle, sales will always reflect according to true talent, and I guarentee nobody in Midnight City, Nevermore, either of the Coopers or myself is sweating it right now because some of us do have years of experience, some of us do have loads of creativity that we've needed to unload and some of us even landed in SL with an education in graphic design.

If all this made me sound like a cocky B****, I'm sorry, I am what I am.

Everyone's taking offense aside - are Poser clothes (ie. Curious Labs) being sold in SL?

I believe most people are concerned with designers using textures meant to fit Poser clothing articles and figures then converting them to fit onto the Second Life avatar template. Actual Poser Clothing can not be imported into Second Life, if so, I would be shocked and amazed that no one has not done that yet. Texture conversion can be done using the raw textures, which often look nothing like the Second Life template, or taking "Renders" of the clothing articles on the Poser figures and working with those renders. Many designers "glean" ideas from Poser websites, some even down right copy them. Even some of the most "popular" creators seem to have taken inspiration for many of their garments, skins, and creations. But never assume this if you do not have the proper evidence to make this assumption. Even then, you may make a mistake - since some people who work with Poser creating work also work in Second Life. There is not much of a difference between "photosourcing" and using Poser render images, they do require the same amount of work to convert properly. Both are using other people's original ideas or photos, converting (the main work put into creating) them into Second Life, to profit in Second Life. Photosourcing is widely used and mostly accepted, even with people who do not pay for a license to use the photos. This does not solely apply to clothing, it applies to everything created in secondlife. Textures for anything have been used from Poser sites all over: builds, clothing, eyes, skins, attachments, etc. I am a big fan of three dimensional art and I "window shop" on a frequent basis, for items in Poser and in SecondLife. I have seen hundreds of items sold in Second Life that look similar to Poser work and I will share some of my better finds. These are all from Poser clothing websites, their Second Life twins are easily found.

An example of a rather popular skin that is being sold:
An outfit that was converted into SL too:

Different source:



I do not condone nor condemn this at all. To me it may lack the "Creativity" of coming up with their own work, but it also takes some skill to make seams from photosourcing or using poser based textures match up on the SL template. I would also like to mention, these people are often the more expensive shops to buy from.. Not the cheaper, like some have mentioned. Some of the designers are fairly successful.

Update on my browsing. I have found 4 more obvious examples at one place, single sim! I will continue sharing with the public. (I believe that is okay?) These are the Poser versions of clothing being sold in Second Life.

Mostly skimpy goth wear:

On sale for Poser here: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=23172

Copied Exactly:

On sale for Poser here: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=25497

Comes in purple in Second Life:

On sale for Poser here: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=21772

Comes slightly seethrough in Second Life:

On sale for Poser here: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=25874

Am I the only person who wants to know where those clothes are in SL so I can buy them?

Sorry I know it's wrong but I would look so hot in those, especially that first one.

From: Seth Kanahoe

Thank you for spewing sense into this thread.

I dont recall using any-ones names?

How can anyone take anything personally unless its clearly directed to them?

I didnt post any pictures of any-ones names

I didnt post anyones names?

How can anyone be insulted unless their nerves are plucked?

I refer to many many many stores I see with superb quality and detailed clothing I dont even HAVE a designer in mind.

My comment was simple...and was more a question.

Was I right in assuming that templates that I found since purchasing Poser 6 that look exactly like any template I have seen after being worked on in photoshop IE: flat cut out tops, bras. skirts etc...all on alpha backgrounds...maybe they need some stretching shrinking...seams lining up but many will and do fit the SL templates...and yes I will and can send you an examlple....if required...

Was I right in my assumption people who dont have the skill required to make good clothes from scratch... are actually using these ready made templates with a little alteration in sizing and uploading them into SL to sell?

Thats all I wanted to know.

Why people would get offended by this unless it was aimed at them directly I have no idea.

I was actually supporting those designers who DO have the skill and creative flare and create honest to goodness clothes from scratch.

If your one of those skilled designers who dont use poser templates then you 'should' be behind me not against me.

Again...for the record...I had no designers name in my mind...I am no designer...i only know what templates look like in Photoshop and in my travels online I found some Poser templates that looked remarkably like those worked in photoshop.

I have no personal incentive in my question or remark only that long term if clothing is too easy to find/make then overall value goes down as the work required to create quality is less and less and ppl dont mind charging peanuts...this will effects those designers ( AGAIN NO NAMES IN MIND OR MENTIONED) who DO spend hours creating and have spent yrs learning

Of course i knew SL attracted creative artists!

But just like RL people w/o skill and money look for shortcuts...copied designer labels...'fallen off back of the lorry' type merchendise...

This effects the REAL designers profits...

SO if your a 'real' designer...Your anger is misplaced.

But for the record I am sorry for offending any-one here was not my intention only to ask whether my observations were real or not.

Wow yeah can you actually buy these in SL? if so very cool

First of all,my question is,are you soo bored you need to tear down what people do in SL? Are you sooo jealous that you cannot do it yourself?? Many people put MANY hours into this game. And you sit there and pout cause you did not think of it first as far as I am concerned, so you are trying to take down the people who did. And no, you did not use names, but "V" sure did he/she {sorry not sure} used SL names in his/her http's. Now, you talk about TOS...he/she broke that right there. And for the biggest record, HER CLOTHS/SKINS ARE THE BEST IN SL! So get off the keyboard if all you have to do is try to take everyone out. It is sickning already. And that goes for those doing the very same thing at this moment.

Whoa, back up a little on jumping to the conclusions. I am not "trying to take out" anyone here. I never stated that I agree with the person making this thread, I did point out that there are several popular/successful creators that use or do the very thing the thread creator is/was condemning. (it is also strange that one of the people who posted before me can outright name names and not be picked on as a TOS violation, quote to me where I insulted anyone or used a negative tone. I will change the links since you pointed out that they are infact a TOS violation) That it was not something fabricated or impossible to do, as some seemed to have thought. I also pointed out that it does not cheapen the industry at all, since they put in as much time and effort as someone that photosources as well as charge just as much. I forgot to mention that these people actually pay for their sources, since you have to purchase Poser and the clothing items to be able to create them. That tacks on several 100 USD that these designers put into their work. I also mentioned that some of these people may be the very people who create Poser work. I would also like to mention that I do this very thing, use Poser to create my own items or content for myself.

My first question is: Are you missing the point of this post? People are buying items from sites like Renderosity for personal use. They are then uploading them, unaltered, to SL for COMMERCIAL use. This is not only a break of LL's TOS, but is also against US laws.

So, it doesn't seem at all that V is "jealous" that they didn't think of being a fraudulent "designer," or upset that they can't do it themself (anyone can cut/paste, and with the horrible quality of the uploaded rips in SL, it seems that's all some "designers" are capable of).

Do not, in any way, give credit where credit is NOT due. When you claim that a designer's work is "the best in sl," make sure you credit the professional artist who created the work. I'm sure you can find their name on the site it was ripped from.

Having a degree in graphic arts, I am fully aware of copyright laws. Renderosity's own Licensing information can be read here: LINK
To put it bluntly, you cannot distribute your purchase unaltered. And fitting to the SL template does not count.

Furthermore, being an artist and designer myself, it is quite frustrating to see "designers" uploading work that is not theirs, only to bask in the fandom of so many unknowing customers.

I am sorry, but you have been fooled.

Ye sI know the point to this post, it is here to point out the some people are so lonley in this game they need to hurt anyone they can. By pointing out their clothing, etc. My main point is, leave em be, if they are doing wrong, it is THEIR problem, not the ones looking for wrong doing in game. If you want to slam the ones already put in this post, why not bring in EVERY single designer that copied a texture, cause unless any given designer is handpainting their stuff, they are copying someone's work somewhere. There already has been a few threads like this, and I still think it is pety people looking for attention. Just like you all, I have an opinion too.

No, you didn't mention anyone by name, but you did imply (maybe unintentionally, maybe not) that everyone must be doing it. I don't know if that's the message you intended to send, but it's certainly the one that was received. By saying things like you don't believe that hundreds of store owners would be capable of creating clothing of the caliber that they do, unless their stuff is stolen, you have insulted all of us. As I said in my previous post, yes, we really are that good, and it's a bit disgusting that you would assume otherwise of anyone.

If you know that a certain individual is a plagiarist, that's one thing, and that person should obviously be shut down. However, when you talk about "so many hundreds," it's pretty obvious you mean everyone. That's just wrong.

I just don't understand why you have to assume the worst. Why can't you accept first that the people in the SL community could be just as talented as people in the Poser community, and then aim your comments at the very few who might be pretending to be better than they are? You do realize those Poser clothes you revere so highly were created by human beings, some professional digital artists, some just talented amateurs, right? In other words, they're just like all of us in SL; you do understand that? And as I said, many people do both, so some of those clothing items you've found in both communities could well have been made by the same people. Had you considered that?

Saying people couldn't be offended unless their own nerves were plucked, thereby implying that those offended must be guilty, is just plain lunacy. Remember that book we all had to read in middle school, The Chocolate War? Well, the author made a great point through the words of the chief villain, Archie. He said, "If you want to get under a guy's skin, accuse him of being something he's not. Otherwise, you're just telling him something he already knows." If you want further proof of that concept, I'll share a personal story. When I was growing up, a good friend of my mother's was a high ranking detective on the local police force. I remember he once said it's usually pretty easy to tell if you've got the wrong man in your jail. If you accuse an innocent man, he stays up all night worrying about it, and in the morning he's a wreck. However, if you've got a guilty man, he goes to sleep that night. (This was also mentioned in the movie, The Usual Suspects, if you recall) You see, the guilty man has only been told what he already knows, so his behavior is unaffected, but the innocent man really has a problem on his hands. Having been accused of being something he's not, he's been hurt, he's offended, he's scared, and he’s worried. His behavior will reflect as much, just as does the behavior of those of us who were offended by your post. You've baselessly accused us all en mass, which has a great many of us hurt and offended. It's extremely naive and more than a bit insensitive of you not to see that.


I take issue with the notion that it was simple, since you were so accusatory for no good reason, but I'll address the questions.


Of course. That's how it works for texturing ANY 3D character. The mesh that constitutes the surface of the model is made up of lines called UV's. Translated to a 2D canvas, the UV's form a template. Paint on that template and apply it to the model, and you've got clothing, decals, tattoos, or whatever it is you wanted to paint. Apply an alpha channel and you've got transparency. Use a layered shader and you can allow for multiple levels constituting skin, underwear, clothing, etc. 3D modeling is 3D modeling. These are universal concepts that have been in place for decades, and they will be the same in anything from SL to Poser to 3DSMax to Maya to any other 3D modeling package on the market today.

That in no way means that to make something that looks good in one application you have to steal it from another though. That's just ludicrous.


Possibly, but chances are if someone has the skills to convincingly adjust a Poser-templated piece of clothing to seamlessly match the SL templates, then he or she also possesses the skills to do it from scratch. It is the same exact skill set after all. I'm sure there are those out there who do this, just as there are people who do all kinds of bizarre things, but it's hardly the norm.


If it's really all you wanted to know, you could simply have asked. There was no need to spout about how "it just didnt make sense to me how so many people were able to create that level of quality..." and how "now it does" after you've developed you thievery theory. You weren't asking a question there, and you know it. You were blatantly making accusations.


Already answered, but I'll have one more go at it. You accused all of us. Naturally we're all offended by that. Those of us who are not guilty, which I estimate to be about 99.99% of us, are the ones who are most offended.



Then you should have said that. Nowhere in your original post did you say anything of the kind.


I would have been, had you not sounded so blanketly accusatory. Of course I'm behind anyone who wants to combat plagiarism, but I cannot and will not support anyone who believes the way to do it is to shake the accusation tree just to see who falls off.


I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Since you're not a designer, you really don't understand what it takes to do it. You don't really know whether changing a Poser template to match an SL template is any easier or harder than doing it from scratch. You just saw two things that looked vaguely similar, you put two and two together, and you assumed you'd stumbled across some sort of cheat sheet. Then instead of just asking, "Hey, is it possible that this is going on?" you assumed that it must be, and that there must be a lot of people doing it.

Let me put it this way. If you want to put Ford wheel onto a Chevy, it might look at first glance like a simple task. A wheel is a wheel, right? I mean it's round, it's got a tire, it's got a few holes for lug nuts; it must be the same. Oh, what's that you say? They're not quite the same, are they? Upon closer inspection, it's evident the holes are not in the same place for both makes, and one's a little bigger than the other. Okay, no big deal, any machinist with a shop full of metal-working tools and machines could make it work, right? Sure, he could, but he could also just make his own wheel from scratch out of a block of metal and that would work too, just as well. He wouldn't have to start with the Ford wheel to make the Chevy wheel, right? No need to assume then that if he's got a home-made Chevy wheel, he must have modified a Ford wheel to do it. He could have done either just as easily. If you want to know which it was, all you'd need to do is politely ask, "Did you do it this way or that way?" What you wouldn't do is demandingly state, "I know how you did that. All these shops full of wheels, I couldn't understand how they all get them to fit on Chevy cars, but now I do. You see Fords have wheels too, and I just discovered that all you have to do is spend a few hours retooling one and you've got a Chevy wheel. That's what you did, right? You stole all those wheels from Ford; I know it. Wait a minute, you're offended? How can you be offended? I was just asking a question." Then you get hit over the head with a large, heavy lug wrench.


As I said, you really don't know what you're talking about here. Since you're admittedly not a designer, why don't you try the following experiment? Take one of those Poser shirts and see how long it takes you to make it seamlessly fit the SL template (seamlessly is the active word here, since we are talking about high quality, right? Now, just grab a blank SL template, and paint a shirt on it. Which was quicker? They probably both took you a long time. Well, if you were experienced, they'd take less time, obviously, but they'd both still take considerable effort to make look right.

So, COULD someone do what you're saying? Absolutely. WOULD they? Maybe, maybe not. It's a lot of work either way. In many cases, modifying an existing image is much harder than making a new one. In other cases it's easier. As I said before, if someone has the skills to do one, they've most certainly got the skills to do the other. Most of the time, it's safe to assume that people are doing their own work.


Well, thanks for the apology. Just please keep in mind that, as I said, modification isn't necessarily easier than new creation, so you'd do well not to assume that it is. Also, I'd appreciate it (as I'm sure would others) if you'd find a way to ask questions without making assumptions about what other people might or might not be doing. The purpose of a question is to find answers, not to assume them, so if your aim is to ask, then you must make it clear that you have no preconceptions. Saying something to the effect of "I'm not an expert on this, but I've made a few observations, and I'm wondering, am I right to think that this might be happening?" would have been much more poignant and much less offensive than the way you put it, which was more or less "I couldn't believe that so many people could do this so well, and now I understand that they all must be cheating, so now it makes sense."

Anyway, apology accepted. I hope my answers to your actual questions were helpful.

I have a few things to say as a shopper in Second Life......I think most people are like me and whatever their fashion tastes are, they want to look good, and wear quality clothing, and so if i see 2 items of clothing in a store and the better article is made fom a poser template then so be it, imao. I have questions regarding whther this is fair use of a product the designer must have bought online from a poser website or downloaded from a Poser related website. I think it is a bit of a stretch to call this stealing. Besides the fact that the designers, could theoretically make real dollars by selling their lindens they earned from these profits Do You really think that this is affecting any of the creators of these Poser templates? Do You think that if Second life designers were not doing this that the poser artists would be earning more money in some way? Dont You think that if there was truly any kind of opportunity to make any ammount of real money that the Poser Artists would be flocking here in droves to sell their own stuff here? Did You think that maybe these Poser Artists that You are trying to defend such as on the Renderosity website might be actually helping their sales by Second life designers? Did You ever think that the Poser software was created so that people could create web design graphics, graphics for 3d games, and that when someone sells content for poser and it is used repeatedly it might not be all that Black and white an issue as You are portraying? Especially since just like the music industry, You can take any song You want or any music, and if its changed enough, its not plagarizing, it is completely legal. Please feel free to enlighten me if You know otherwise

Well it really seems that the majority of players just "don’t care." "As long as my av looks cool, I don't care who they ripped off."

Copyright laws state that an item such as a logo, design, song, melody, etc, must be changed by at least 10% before it can be labeled as "different." If the original piece is at all used in it's original form, it is labeled as a "derivative work," and the original creator is entitled to rights.

The use for these poser items is clearly defined by their license:
"The Buyer is not purchasing the contents, only the right to use the contents. The Buyer may not redistribute this archive file, in whole or in part. The Buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the Internet where it may be referenced by a third party. Buyer acquires the copyright to any derivative works created using this work, provided none of the original materials can be extracted from the derivative work by any means."
What this means is that you're allowed to use the item in a render, then sell that rendered artwork if you please. But you cannot sell the item itself and make a profit with it. And yes the profit is considerable. There are several designers on SL whose entire income in Real Life comes from SL sales. These people are not just using an idea such as a lightsaber or certain car model, and then modeling and texturing their own version from scratch. They are taking another person's graphical work, altering the placement in a template, and then selling it as their own. It's not even like they're selling it for 1 Linden and saying "Here's an item translated from Poser template into SL, hope you enjoy." They are claiming 100% credit for the item, not referencing the original artist, and plagiarizing the work.

What this is, is a question of ethics. And it seems that very few on SL care about the ethics of the "designers" they "love" and "support." Whether or not these SL sales are infringing on Poser designers' income is not the issue. Many Poser designers could care less about SL. Their lives are too busy to endeavor into SL sales of their work. In fact they may even be happy that their work has been translated into another world to be used and enjoyed there. But I can assure you, that they would not be pleased to find that someone is redistributing their work for a real world profit. Now maybe if you were sharing your profit with them as a distributer would......but I don't see that happening.

This behavior is unethical, illegal, and immoral. It is a shame that Linden Labs doesn't have a department solely based on regulating this kind of thing. And before you make the comment that this is "just a game," or "it really doesn't matter," realize that people are making QUITE a living doing this so it DOES seem to matter.

It is frustrating to see that people really don't care if they are being fooled and lied to. I just can't identify with it. Have we really gotten to the point that we only care how we feel, or how we look? At the cost of being honest?

I guess ignorance is bliss, and people just want the bliss. :/

So can someone explain what these poser files are intended to be used for?

These clothing items are to be used as props in renderings or videos.
If a photographer takes a photo of a model wearing a dress, the maker of the dress is not entitled to anything. Lots of photographers will of course reference the dress maker out of courtesy, but no rights are reserved for the dress-maker. However if the photographer tried to sell the dress as their own, you see the problem.

Well said, Mox. I hope I wasn't appearing to be on the wrong side of the serious issue here in my argument with the original poster. People who are stealing works from the Poser community or from any other source (and yes it IS stealing, despite what some on this thread have chosen to call it) are dispicable and should be stopped. I just took issue with the wording of the original post, which implied that such theft was the norm, and that everyone was doing it. I think it's important to emphasize that thievery is not the norm. Most SL designers are legit, and that fact must be noted whenever the subject of plagiarism is raised.

It gives me a sick feeling in my stomach every time someone displays a stolen image in SL. Just 2 days ago in fact, somone came by the Sci Fi Museum and showed me some crates he had "made". They looked great, but they also looked eerily familiar. I said "Those looked like they stepped right out of a Jedi Knight game." His response was "Yeah, I pulled them out of the PK3 asset file in Jedi Academy." It never even seemed to occur to this person that what he had done might be wrong, or even worse, that he had not actually made the crates himself. He really seemed to believe that the work was his. I was stunned.

So, I couldn't agree with you more, Mox. The lack of scruples of many people in SL is really atrocious. I wish these people would either grow a conscience or that LL had a way to shut them down. The problem is that LL's stance is and must be that they are simply a service provider, and that they are not responsible for resident content in any way. It's unfortunate, but it is the right stance for them to take. Were they to change that position, they'd then be open to law suits every time someone uploads a texture, a sound, etc. That's just not a door they can or should open, not to mention the manpower it would take to police the community in such a manner.

Anyway, for acuracy's sake, I do need to point out a factual error in your post. The "10% different" thing is a long standing copyright myth. Even if such a rule did exist, there is no way to quantify or measure the percentage of difference between two images. For things that are easier to measure, like say a book, that doesn't hold up either. If you took a Harry Potter book and changed every 10th page, it would still be a Harry Potter book and it would still belong to JK Rowling, regardless of your tampering. What the law does require is that a work be original in order to be copyrighted. Exactly what constitutes originality is obviously difficult to define, which is why law suits are necessary when infringement is alleged.

Also, you mentioned things like logos, another subject of popular misconception. Logos, names, characers, etc. are not subject to copyright law at all, but to trademark law, which is entirely different.

I'd highly recommend everyone involved with this thread read 10 Big Myths About Copyright Explained by Brad Templeton, as well as the General Information and FAQ at www.copyright.gov. I especially hope that those who have on this thread defended plagiarism as "not stealing" or as "free advertising" would read at least the 10 Myths if nothing else, since it does address that question pretty thorughly.