Linden owns us

well this time I decided to actually read the tos ...

How many of us would play this game if we actually read what we are legally bound with.

1.6 Second Life is subject to scheduled and unscheduled service interruptions. All aspects of the Service are subject to change or elimination at Linden Lab's sole discretion.

Linden Lab reserves the right to interrupt the Service with or without prior notice for any reason or no reason. You agree that Linden Lab will not be liable for any interruption of the Service, delay or failure to perform, and you understand that except as otherwise specifically provided in Linden Lab's billing policies posted at http://secondlife.com/corporate/billing.php, you shall not be entitled to any refunds of fees for interruption of service or failure to perform. Linden Lab has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to change and/or eliminate any aspect(s) of the Service as it sees fit in its sole discretion.

Basically, you got no come back.

2.6 Linden Lab may suspend or terminate your account at any time, without refund or obligation to you.

Linden Lab has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to suspend or terminate your Account, terminate this Agreement, and/or refuse any and all current or future use of the Service without notice or liability to you. In the event that Linden Lab suspends or terminates your Account or this Agreement, you understand and agree that you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription, any license or subscription fees, any content or data associated with your Account, or for anything else.

I like the for any reason or no reason


3.3 Linden Lab retains ownership of the account and related data, regardless of intellectual property rights you may have in content you create or otherwise own.

You agree that even though you may retain certain copyright or other intellectual property rights with respect to Content you create while using the Service, you do not own the account you use to access the Service, nor do you own any data Linden Lab stores on Linden Lab servers (including without limitation any data representing or embodying any or all of your Content).

5.2 All data on Linden Lab's servers are subject to deletion, alteration or transfer.

When using the Service, you may accumulate Content, Currency, objects, items, scripts, equipment, or other value or status indicators that reside as data on Linden Lab's servers. THESE DATA, AND ANY OTHER DATA, ACCOUNT HISTORY AND ACCOUNT NAMES RESIDING ON LINDEN LAB'S SERVERS, MAY BE DELETED, ALTERED, MOVED OR TRANSFERRED AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON IN LINDEN LAB'S SOLE DISCRETION.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, NOTWITHSTANDING ANY COPYRIGHT OR OTHER RIGHTS YOU MAY HAVE WITH RESPECT TO ITEMS YOU CREATE USING THE SERVICE, AND NOTWITHSTANDING ANY VALUE ATTRIBUTED TO SUCH CONTENT OR OTHER DATA BY YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY, LINDEN LAB DOES NOT PROVIDE OR GUARANTEE, AND EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (SUBJECT TO ANY UNDERLYING INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS IN THE CONTENT), ANY VALUE, CASH OR OTHERWISE, ATTRIBUTED TO ANY DATA RESIDING ON LINDEN LAB'S SERVERS.

YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT LINDEN LAB HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY CONTENT (INCLUDING YOUR CONTENT) IN WHOLE OR IN PART AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND.

5.3 Linden Lab provides the Service on an "as is" basis, without express or implied warranties.

LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND ALL OTHER SERVICES STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, PROVIDED AT YOUR OWN RISK, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

Without limiting the foregoing, Linden Lab does not ensure continuous, error-free, secure or virus-free operation of the Service, the Linden Software or your Account, and you understand that you shall not be entitled to refunds for fees based on Linden Lab's failure to provide any of the foregoing other than as explicitly provided in this Agreement. Some jurisdictions do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, and to that extent, the foregoing disclaimer may not apply to you.

5.4 Linden Lab's liability to you is expressly limited, to the extent allowable under applicable law.

IN NO EVENT SHALL LINDEN LAB OR ANY OF ITS SHAREHOLDERS, PARTNERS, AFFILIATES, DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, SUBSIDIARIES, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, SUPPLIERS, LICENSEES OR DISTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY DAMAGES FOR LOST PROFITS, ARISING (WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE) OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICE (INCLUDING ITS MODIFICATION OR TERMINATION), THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT (INCLUDING ITS TERMINATION OR SUSPENSION) OR THIS AGREEMENT, WHETHER OR NOT LINDEN LAB MAY HAVE BEEN ADVISED THAT ANY SUCH DAMAGES MIGHT OR COULD OCCUR AND NOTWITHSTANDING THE FAILURE OF ESSENTIAL PURPOSE OF ANY REMEDY. IN ADDITION, IN NO EVENT WILL LINDEN LAB'S CUMULATIVE LIABILITY TO YOU FOR DIRECT DAMAGES OF ANY KIND OR NATURE EXCEED FIFTY DOLLARS (U.S. 0.00). Some jurisdictions do not allow the foregoing limitations of liability, so to the extent that any such limitation is impermissible, such limitation may not apply to you. You agree that Linden Lab cannot be held responsible or liable for anything that occurs or results from accessing or subscribing to the Service.

5.5 You will indemnify Linden lab from claims arising from breach of this Agreement by you, from your use of Second Life, from loss of Content due to your actions, or from alleged infringement by you.

At Linden Lab's request, you agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Linden Lab, its shareholders, partners, affiliates, directors, officers, subsidiaries, employees, agents, suppliers, licensees, distributors, Content Providers, and other users of the Service, from all damages, liabilities, claims and expenses, including without limitation attorneys' fees and costs, arising from any breach of this Agreement by you, or from your use of the Service. You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Linden Lab, its shareholders, partners, affiliates, directors, officers, subsidiaries, employees, agents, suppliers, licensees, and distributors, from all damages, liabilities, claims and expenses, including without limitation attorneys' fees and costs, arising from: (a) any action or inaction by you in connection with the deletion, alteration, transfer or other loss of Content, status or other data held in connection with your Account, and (b) any claims by third parties that your activity or Content in the Service infringes upon, violates or misappropriates any of their intellectual property or proprietary rights.

Basically they can change anything, delete anything take anything do anything and you and I have no come back, no wonder SL is in the state it is I mean for gods sake if they were actually in any way responsible for this disaster it wouldn't be one.

Almost all MMO ToS have the exact same thing, nearly to the word. It is to cover all grounds, such as someone doing something unthinkable that effects SL or it's community negatively. It doesn't mean that they are going to ban you for shits and giggles.

Errr... having read it when I signed up, I can honestly say I would.

Do you ever read any TOS? They are almost ALL like that.

What? You don't?

Quelle Surprise!

Congratulations, that's every MMO and Beta Service TOS in existance.
Not if they'd admit it's still a BETA.

Yeah, sounds pretty cookie cutter standard to me...some people need to realize that everyone is not out to get them. If anything, LL is trying to save their own hides.

Some things are out of LL's control, so they have to protect themselves. Most games/platforms have a similar thing.

Disclaimer: I'm not calling SL a game.

I think we should shorten it too 2 parts

1)U playz ma game, ya gona hurt an get strezzed, you may get virus, you could crash, you could get aids but I am not responsible

2)the only definete thing about ma game is.... you will be build monthly (our billing system is guarrenteed never to undercharge you, and be totally lag free on the day we rifle through your bank account.

Have you met Lewis?

Studying law, are we?

Yes, all TOS's are generally the same... but the difference is that SL is a place where you create and retain ownership of intellectual creations. In SL, and everywhere else, other than the TOS, there's the idea that a user retains their intellectual property rights.... but LL can decide at any moment to swipe your creation from you and call it their own....

There is no website provider or server elsewhere that declares they have rights at any time to steal your inventions.

PayPal reserves the right to take funds from your account at any given time for any reason. Sounds pretty much the same, right?

Well couldn't any MMORPG take the character that you worked on for weeks {your investment} using the same ToS?

Paypal's TOS relating to that is a bit more in depth than that. Their TOS and taking money relates to user disputes and that everyone agrees that if there is a dispute that paypal has the right to make the decision and transfer the monies where they are supposed to go. But paypal is not allowed to, at a whim, take money from people's accounts and keep it.

...and everybody thinks PayPal are a bunch of shitheads.

Better go back and reread the TOS since around 1.5.... you'll discover that in essense, the stuff you posted has not changed since then.

Better go back and reread the TOS since around 1.5.... you'll discover that in essense, the stuff you posted has not changed since then.

Heck, I remember when 1.6 and 5.3 were added after the 2-3 days of downtime due to... if I recall correctly... one of the very first "jumbo sized" grid attacks!

LL cannot take our creations and call it their own. If you read carefully the term "non-exclusive" was used. This means as far as IPR they effectively become co-owner of the creations.

Plus LL states that the main avenue of complaint of IP violation supplied is the DMCA. If you do not own rights to it you can't file a DMCA complaint. The fact that you can file it and that LL will recognize the DMCA means you are a valid claimant, hence an owner. So by claiming ownership PLUS telling us that the complaint method is that *we* file a DMCA, LL establishes that we are co-owners.

How is being co-owner different from being able to call it their own? Sure, you ostensibly retain rights to your creations, but you can't back up your builds. You actually have *fewer* rights than LL does over what you create and purportedly own.

Never mind the fact that the TOS gives them the right to take anything you create and distribute it to each and every resident should they so choose. Bottom line is, smart SL users shouldn'tt upload any textures or work they don't mind being freely distributed.

They won't call it their own to the exclusion of you, meaning they are not outright taking our stuff. My point is they don't take away all our rights to it. But they claim rights to use it.

Now you CAN backup your builds. Screenshots. Our builds can't exist as is outside LL. So screenshots are as good as backups. There are also ways of gathering the object prim data (easy to do).

As for uploading work? The issues are no different from the internet. Yahoo and Blogspot for example retain the same rights on their free services like Geocities and Yahoogroups. The only place they don't claim those rights is email.

True, but most MMOs don't advocate setting up your whole living within them.

Would you start a business in a country who's laws gave the government these powers? Indeed, the power to turn the whole bloody country off, at will, with impunity?

Until LL provides an automated way of extracting and re-uploading prim parameters into SL, I maintain they *do not* provide a means of backing up your builds. Screenshots? Please be serious.

Are you saying that if I were to upload my PhD thesis onto a page hosted on Yahoo, then they could claim co-ownership of my IP in the same way as LL claims co-ownership of their users' IP?

Read the Yahoo TOS. That's why my website is not on a freespace. They don't claim to own it, but they reserve rights to use the material to promote their services. In a way it's good for you because it can give your material exposure. But there are stuff I want to keep for myself, so... there we go.

It's easy to backup your builds. It's just a bit of scripting to capture and trensmit the prim parameters.

It may be easy to write a script to llEmail() prim parameters to yourself. Now, imagine your build is destroyed and your inventory is wiped. How are you going to recreate that build you just spent six weeks creating? There is no native way in SL to back up your builds.

"Advocate setting up your whole living within them"? I don't really know where this applies, unless I'm misunderstanding it.

Also, I think you confusing SL {a game} with RL {not a game}.