After development bonuses are gone

I've just visited a supposedly very popular place according to the list.

It's full of people.

All neatly arranged in little rows, away, being paid for doing nothing.

It's pathetic. And laggy... running at half the fps of most places I visit.

If this is really the future of SL, and representative of the 'quality' that we can expect.... I guess I might as well cancel now. They have over 93,000 traffic, my place has 188 this morning. Yet I can guarantee you that every visitor to my place comes by because they want to (either out of curiosity, or repeat visit), not because they are being paid to do so.

In my 2½ years of Sims Online, I have never paid out to bribe people to visit my property, and I certainly don't plan on starting in SL now.

Lewis

I like the way you think

An optimist, apparently a good work ethic, a thinker, a doer, identifies problems and offers solutions not excuses, a leader not a follower, positive thinker, etc.

All this I see in you.

Thank you for your input, its refreshing

You make a good argument for change...

and and yet you are unsatisfied when change is proposed?

Changes like the ones being proposed have the potential to change all of the above negative points you speak of.

The current model, atleast from your above assessment, is obviously not working.

Why not give change a chance?

I don't know TSO very well, but isn't part of the point of TSO that you include things in your house which make people's game stats go up when they interact with them?

If you used those in TSO it's just the same as paying them to be on the site. It's just that L$ are the only meaningful stat in SL.

You are right in a way, but let me explain further.

There are house rankings, based on the amount of time that people spend on your property, averaged over a 4 day period. So it is true that the more visitors you have, the more popular you get, and the more you get paid for your ranking.

However... there is this thing called 'payouts' which people have created which, in my opinion, have ruined the game. These basically bribe people to come to your house and stay.

There are single player money objects where, depending on your skill, you could choose to make a gnome, make some jam, bash a pinata or whatever, and the payout the item gives you would be between §40 and §600 ish, also factored in how many people are doing the item with you.

However, that effectively means that there is nothing to differentiate between rival properties offering the same items, as there is no custom content ability in TSO. Houses therefore would have to be either imaginative in their theme, or provide a great lively interactive hosting experience, better than the competition, to attract visitors.

Then someone thought "hey, if I give people §50 as a bonus for each {item} they make, then maybe they'll stay here longer". And people did, and up the list the property rose.

Then a rival house decided to give §100 bonus for the exact same thing, and people flocked there instead.

Another house saw this going on, and offered §250 bonus, and up they went.

By now, the first house is fed up from losing visitors and starts offering §500 an item.

The 3rd house wants their spot so badly they then start paying §1000 an item.

and so on and so on.

People count out each item they complete, and then when they're done, they simply take the money and run, so in a crowded house the only conversation you see is "5", "11", "8", "4", "22", "Can I cash out now".

Other places aren't so subtle as to actually expect you to do something for your money, and offer a certain amount of money for each hour you spend sitting on their property, doing whatever you like or nothing, as long as you are there. As there is no automatic paying mode in TSO, you have to rely on the property owner to actually pay you at the end of your time - which, of course, some unscrupulous players see this as a great scam opportunity and just 'boot and ban' when the time is up, rather than paying out (a bit like the fake camping chairs). These 'per hour' payouts also spiral well beyond the kind of money that one player can legitimately make in the same time.

Where I have a problem with this is that the majority of these payouts are funded by illegal 'money bots', which are a violation of the game's ToS - which sit there and repetitively mouse click and keep your sim alive 23 hours a day, raking in tens of thousands of simoleans per day. When you have 10 people taking a payout of §1000 each in the same time that you can earn §600 if you are working alone... it doesn't take Einstein to figure out that something don't quite work right there.

People who play within the rules basically cannot maintain the kind of expenditure required to keep up, so they either turn to cheating themselves, or burn out and quit playing through frustration - neither of which are good for the game. Those houses who offer a much better experience, but not payouts, are overlooked by most players now because so many players think that houses who don't bribe you to visit aren't worth looking at - so talented and creative players don't get the exposure or popularity they deserve, and give up.

You also would find packed houses full of silent, sitting players for hours on end, not responding to any conversation, because the human has put their pet rock on the keyboard (to override the timeout mechanism) and gone to bed.

So many new players see this all through the game, and think being paid and sitting in silence is the only way to play, so the next generation come in with the same idea, whilst mature players get more despondant and quit. It also means that they don't experience the full benefit of the enjoyment of the game. It's just like a new player coming to SL and seeing the Bush signs everywhere.

I have first hand experience of how TSO's gameplay and economy have been destroyed over the years through this 'buying popularity' principle, and I would hate to see the same happen to SL through greedy people buying their way to the top of the list because they don't have the intelligence, creativity or talent to attract people in any other ways. It also feeds into the thought that the only way to be popular is to give people money for nothing.

A year or so ago, all hell broke loose on the TSO forums about this payout debate, which was finally locked when the thread hit over 500 posts and threatened to crash the forum software (there are limits on post lengths there), which got quite heated and made this whole SL "Bush signs" discussion look like a granny's tea party.

If you want to try TSO, go to http://sims.stratics.com and download the free 14 day trial version.

Lewis

Then is SL a game or a platform? If it is aplatform, what is it? What then do you see the purpose of the metaverse then, which we all hear about?

Gameform!

As soon as DI and Dwell both go away:

Free art and culture, education, and non-gambling, non-*ingo, non-sex events will go away. People will start charging.

Most places that offer non-gambling, non-*ingo, non-sex events will have to start offering this sort of thing in order to stay afloat.

If the for-pay model doesn't work, non-gambling, non-*ingo, non-sex events will dry up completely.

Places where large communities thrive will go to a membership model with those that can afford to purchase lindens compensating for those who cannot.

All sex, *.*ing and gambling events will be on a for-pay basis. They will thrive. As a matter of fact this will be the pre-eminent type of event on SL as it will be one of the few to make money.

LL will eventually take the events calendar away as it will be filled with nothing more than sex, gambling, *ingo and ads for shops (moreso than it is now).

A lot of shops, especially those who charge a lot and do not have a following, will go out of business as the money to buy things will rest mainly in the hands of those who have no desire to shop

After all this, the big shops will start offering some events at their shops to start driving business. I predict events in places like Midnight City and the like.

We will all be driven insane by listening to Prokfy and Coco proclaim over and over that they were right.

:hrugs and hands out knives so everyone can continue to cut off their noses to spite their faces::

I was right about it in Sims Online, so I guess you can add me to that list as well because I know that buying success is not the way to go.

Lewis

Thank you for the interesting post about the TSO payments, Lewis.

However, it seems to me that the priority is to try and investigate the reason why people would rather gain money than enjoy the "creative and interesting" features that other people have added to the game. The alternative method, of squeezing the resources on all people who provide content so that they can't afford to pay out to visitors, is dangerous, since at the extreme the only way to prevent them having money to pay to visitors is to prevent them making any net gain at all.

So why is it? In SL it's easy enough to say that it's because it's real money for free, even in tiny amounts - but your TSO example somewhat disproves that because, at the rate of 50000 Simoleons to US$3, and bearing in mind that - based on what you've said - people can't just leave the computer running, it's not likely that many people are doing it to make US$!

There's a similar thing on some online text-based games. People are known to chase game stats even when they could enjoy themselves more in other role-play situations, even in games which don't have coded combat systems, so the stats have no value other than to be shown to other players.

I wish I could come up with some convincing theory of why this is. Possibly, because you can imagine yourself being in an impressive build and it'll be almost as good? That doesn't apply to imagining yourself having more L$ or Simoleons or whatever.

Or perhaps, in SL, and as far as I know in TSO, the main reasons to spend money are to a) customise your avatar and then b) to build your own area. a) hits a limit after a certain point, though, and b) limits the time you'll want to spend in other people's areas no matter how imaginative they are. I had a fair amount of agreement in-world that the feeling of seeing something and saying "But I wanted to make thaaaat!" is almost universal.

Glatporm!

You've made a typo, its PORN (or sometimes pr0n) but NEVER porm.

Admittedly I'm just a drop in the ocean - but the loss of DI and Dwell will not mean the end of everything being free at the Shelter.

I still plan to hold our game shows, free of charge - and even add more in the future if the funding is there - and not charge any of our visitors (who are mostly new residents) a dime. For as long as the community continues to support us through their generous donations, we'll continue to be around.

Maybe I'm just colored by seeing a side of our community others don't see as often.... but from my vantage point, I see our community on a whole as being amazingly generous. And the feeling I get from that is worth hundred-fold more to me than attempting to make any kind of RL income out of SL

That would be covered under the 'people will start charging' and the 'communities will be covered under a membership format where those who can afford it will compensate for those who cannot'

It may be donations you are asking for and it may not be required but you are still going to need to get money to do this from somewhere. Land costs money. The Shelter costs money. Yes, hopefully donations will cover what you do. But that isn't guaranteed. If it does not, are you prepared to cover expenses from your own pocket? How long are you prepared to do this for?

I would like to remind everyone that I have not been a part of this thread.

Aw man I just glatted everywhere. *grabs towel*

Looking at the amount of people selling simoleans on Ebay, I'd say that a lot of people are leaving their computer running 23 hours a day 7 days a week with bots making millions to sell, to feed those who buy the money to do payouts at their property.

You can also look at any city and easily find these 'bot properties' churning out game money.

In TSO, there is a point where you have more money than you actually need, having bought a size 8 property and filled it with all the best stuff, it then becomes a competition to show off by having as many of the 'rare' items (some that cost §10,000,000 or more - yes $60 at your calculations).

But many of the rare prices have only reached that far simply because of all the dirty money going round the game!

Newbies of course don't want to work for their money to get stuff, they just want handouts "because you must be loaded to have all this", and just fall into the welfare culture of places giving away §10,000 just for sitting on their property for an hour.

Most of the problem in SL is because you can convert L$ to real life cash. That's the simple root of so many of the game's problems. Do you really think people like Anshe Chung would have invested so much effort in her 'empire' if she couldn't make a real living out of it?

The one thing I don't understand about SL is that you don't actually *need* money to get by - you can just make things yourself if you have the time and patience to learn.

Lewis

I was looking at my accounts for the first time in ages, and I was amazed to find that I've made L$9 in DI over the last week or two, from, uh, I dunno, some people hanging around my home area for some reason.

My attitude has entirely changed now. Keep DI! Say no to Linden fascism! I'm sticking some camping sofas in right this instant.

But those are people who are running bots. I wasn't talking about them - I was talking about the people who go to the locations that offer the "payouts" you described in your previous post, where they make things and count them down, then ask to cash out. Based on what you said, this wouldn't be a clear way of making enough Simoleons to be worth selling for US$.



Well, no - but it's a good thing that people are investing effort into adding stuff to the game. Ok, you can quibble about Anshe and other land resellers, but if it wasn't for the ability to convert L$ into real cash then anyone who dared to contribute anything to the game would be paying US$ through the nose for the privilege. Plus, of course, if you couldn't sell L$ then you couldn't buy it either, so any newbies who didn't want to build stuff would be dropping SL entirely after getting sick of waiting two weeks on Premium for a cheap skin. (And no, it wouldn't drive prices down, since the rich people would be as rich as they are now.)



Not everyone can make everything they want. If you want to have a cool-looking outfit and a gun then that's two completely different skill sets you've got to learn to make that yourself.

I think this is very unfair and shortsighted. If everyone coming into SL wanted to and did learn to use GIMP/PSP/PSCS/POSER/learn scripting/etc then who would patronize all those wonderful shops? People would just make their own stuff and then trade it and then we'd be done with it.

I work hard all day long. I don't come to SL to work some more. I want to have fun. Maybe scripting isn't fun for me. Maybe graphics are not my forte. That doesn't mean I'm lazy. It doesn't mean I want something for nothing.

And lets not forget those creators that have received a decent chunk of change from being able to convert lindens to dollars. There's a reason none of the top producers in SL will tell you how much they make every month. I think there's this feeling that Anshe and the land and money barons are evil because they trade and sell land. The truth of the matter is that they aren't the only people making cash. IAimee, and Munch, and Neph, and.. well all the other people who sell lots of stuff and I don't really know who they all are (nor am I singling these people out for any reason other than I buy lots of stuff from them so they come immediately to mind) sell tons of stuff worth many lindens every month. You think they aren't turning that into cash? You think they haven't invested a lot of effort?

Its easy to just say newbies are lazy and people who don't create stuff are worthless. A little harder, however, to look at the bigger picture.

When I say that you don't "need" money, I guess what I really mean is that a player on their first day does not need to buy a new skin, clothing, bling jewelery and prim hair.

Just like they don't *need* to own half a sim on day 1 either.

Lewis

It's a difficult balance. The argument that there would be no market for the items people create can actually be turned around. If people can get money for doing nothing, why would they bother going through the effort of creating content? If you can just get paid for free and get all kinds of handouts, what is the incentive? There has to be a balance somehow. Finding that balance is difficult, because when you have viable ways that people can make some income without a lot of effort, then people game them and ruin it. This isn't TSO, where you could get endlessly paid for making pizzas or painting paintings to earn some extra money. I don't know the simple solution, but it ultimately comes down to finding the balance between making people feel like they can earn some sort of income without it being "work", while at the same time not making it possible to earn so much that it becomes a disincentive for those who are working to make money.

I agree. I know it sounds like I'm whining about DI and Dwell going away but really I support these things. I'm a little worried about the fallout and I honestly don't think the for-pay model will work for non-gambling, non-sex, non-*.*ingo events. BUT if thats what happens, then that's what happens -- if those types of events dry up because the community won't support them then so be it. I believe it to be a loss but, obviously, I would be in the minority.

The main problem with the DI I think is that the only tangible metric they could use was traffic. There were so many compelling things that never got any type of acknowledgement or reward, while it seemed the same group of uncreative moneyball crapholes topped the list time and again. There was very little variety, and the competition for those awards became pretty ugly. The culmination being the camping chairs - controversial I know, but they are the dearth of any kind of creativity or fairness. They artificially boost a place's popularity. I think their overuse just accelerated the death of the DI program, which has had problems from the start.

The question becomes how to you reward creative, compelling content that makes SL more fun for all of us? Well, for one thing, it is so subjective and hard to define. I think ultimately it is up to the community to speak with their virtual wallets, the same way we do in RL. It is sad, but unless Linden Lab is going to get into the position of giving out subjective merit awards, I am not sure what alternative exists since the dwell system is fundamentally broken now.

Oooo, I love glat videos...



P2