Taking the fun out of shopping

I think that's a very binary view, and you're absolutely pigeonholing people into either 'camp'. We're a "successful" content creating group, but we use our in-game earnings to keep the place (Luskwood) alive.

There's profiteering, and then there's making something self-sustaining. We actually *do* put a LOT of work into the stuff we make, and we want to make damn sure people are happy with it. Eltee probably works an additional 20-30 hours a week in-game just to make sure people are happy with our avatars. She doesn't get paid for that.

We're just trying to keep things going. We all have full-time jobs to pay our RL rent. But the fact of the matter is, Linden Lab charges us to do it.

Would you say that Linden Lab is wrong to do that? If so, why? And if not, how is Linden Lab different than us?

Hey I agree. SL isn't free. But I disagree that all merchants will leave if the economy keeps spiraling out of control and I disagree that merchants make all that much money for LL.


I know a fair amount of merchants that pay no land tier. That rent -- or in the case of some -- just use SL Boutique as their store. Furthermore, LL eliminated dwell and DI -- thus eliminating many event venues. This didn't seem to upset them in the slightest. I know, as an event manager of an events venue that had to close because many in this forum had the opinion that events should be free, that not one tear was shed on the part of LL when the Spa had to close. My sympathy therefore is limited. My opinion on how much the paying of tier means to them is also somewhat limited. But for the sake of addressing your argument, I know a lot of people who don't sell a damn thing but still own land. I know a lot of people who sell stuff who own less land than I do and I don't sell anything -- but I do have a wildlife preservation that is available to any who want to come out and hang -- that I pay the tier for and that is free of charge. I am not alone in my altruism.

I believe, when you are not twisting my words to mean something other than what they do, that your argument is that merchants are vital to LL and that if we don't pay the higher prices merchants willl soon all be charging that all merchants will leave. Kind of hard to tell because you aren't really making a clear argument -- you're more attacking me than anything else. Anyway if that is your argument -- I disagree.

I doubt all merchants or even most merchants will leave SL because of the downward sprial of the value of the linden. I doubt many of you mean all that much to them in the first place. But let the free market reign and we'll all find out.

Joannah, I honestly don't think that getting rid of stipends is a good idea. I never did. The argument is, I believe, who is "wrong" here --- and that -is- a subjective matter that goes beyond business.

But what I -am- seeing in this thread, also beyond business, is a few people gloating about how the "content barons are finally getting theirs".

I coined the term 'content baron' as a joke a few years back, here. Kinda confounding that it's beginning to be used as a serious term.

But at the same time its not a stable amount. Stability is good.

This seems like a overly-broad generalization; folks' relationship with the L$ and US$ seem to exist on a continuum of barely noticing the former exists to using the conversion between the two as their primary source of iRL income. Most people don't fit tidily into one category or another, and the issue is further blurred by the ability to pay some in-world expenses (e.g.: monthly bill from LL) using the Lindex...

What *I* really don't get, however, is the claim that these two supposed groupings of users don't understand one another. There are plenty of counterexamples in the folks I know, most of whom are more than capable of bein' sympathetic with folks low on L$, while at the same time fretting over steps needed to make their own ends meet when the currency value swings wildly. It seems like this is a synthetic conflict you're describing, or one that occurs but is hardly representative of the general userbase.

This is the best post I have seen on the topic - it comes down to a basic disconnect between the two. Unfortunately, you also have a lot of people in group A who also don't seem to get the concept that something that was $100L and is now $150L is still the same price if you got 50% more L$ for the same amount of money you paid in the past.

Yes, because you either utilize L$/$ connection or you don't. It _is_ a binary choice. (and nothing more, read below)


From your comment, i think you're interpreting my comment as if i'm attaching some kind of 'moral value' to either option i listed. Which i don't. I find neither of these views "right" or "wrong" or "good" or "evil" or what have you.

If you use your in-game earnings to cover the real world expenses needed to keep your in-game things going, that's fine. Just please understand that some people don't do that. It doesn't make any of these options "greedy" or whatever, it simply makes them different and as such given to perceive the same facts (change of item price) in different light.

I absolutely understand that Joannah... That's -not- what I'm arguing against... so maybe what I'm saying is directed more at others in this thread, and not you.

I think its not that we don't get it, its just that we don't care.

Either you will raise your prices because of this, or you won't. If I like your work enough, and I have enough cash to buy, then I will continue to do so at the higher price. If your work was just barely worth it to me at the lower price, I might walk away when I see the higher price.

And I think the not caring and the shrugging of the shoulders and some of us saying "ok raise your prices then -- if I don't like it I won't buy" is something YOU don't get.

To me, (and me alone) it looks like I'm being berated for not caring. It looks like you are saying "but you should care!" But thinking or saying that isn't going to make me care. Its just going to make me testy.

Ahh. well, am nowhere near gloating over something like that -- a decision to raise one's prices in response to the in-world income getting relatively lesser because of L$/$ ratio is quite natural, and there isn't really anything to get upset over about it.

It's just at the same time i wish people who raise these prices don't get upset over my exercising of equally natural and valid option to witheld from purchase of what i now perceive to be too expensive. As it's not "greed" or desire to see merchants run their business at loss as it was put in this thread... but honest-to-god case of being able to afford less of game items, if for whatever reasons i don't purchase the game currency with real world money. ^^;;

(that's general "me" rather than specifically me. just to clarify.)

Oh, it obviously is. I just think if i included all possible shades of grey in here, that'd muddle the view rather than help. Plus, a bit of controversy is a must if you want the conversation keep going <g>

But yes, of course there's plenty of people who, while perceiving things mostly in one way, can also see them the way another person does. It's just these people rarely seem to participate in this kind of threads, perhaps precisely _because_ they can see both sides of the coin? ^^;;

I read this a couple of times and frankly you sound jealous and mean-spirited.

What I really hate about the current economic issues is all the viciousness and pettiness that seems to be oozing out of the woodwork. Yes, a lot of people are feeling pinched on all sides of all of these questions. That's no excuse for posts like these.

So then it is in the consumer's best intrest to see the exchange reach a better rate as well, that way the (thieves / content creators / people who expect to get the same value) will not have to raise prices and instead *gasp* lower them!!!

People don't work that way.

To loosely steal a line from Dilbert, consumers want better products faster and for free.

Vendors (albiet not the casual hobbyists) want to sell infinitely more product at infinitely higher prices.

It's a gross generalization, but basically, participants on both sides are motivated by greed and see little beyond their immediate personal concerns. That's the way our civilization works. I'm not saying that's a good thing ... it just is.

It doesn't matter, Surreal. The more emotion that creeps into discussion of matters of business the less credible the speakers. It's one thing to be passionate about your company, your products, your industry. But when your discourse becomes hysterical, you no longer matter to the conversation. The cool logic of the dollar will resolve everything -- the emotion is probably frustration that the dollar demonstrates such clockwork effectiveness.

Wait.


This thread is about people who recieve FREE money complaining that they cant buy as much stuff with their FREE money? Not about buying off the Lindex, but it is about stipends.

So, by free I mean it's money they

A - do not have to work for
and
B - do not have to buy off the Lindex

So now you get one or two things without buying L$ or working instead of 3 things.

again, why are you even complaining let alone calling people thieves for raising prices?

I make nothing, I get a stipend for doing nothing, I buy some stuff... I support the creator's rights to raise prices, if I want something I will buy some L$ dont see what the big deal is for 50 cents

Except one fatal flaw: Alot of us DON'T CARE. Especially when people are trying to remove somethign I pay for to get a better rate for themselves.

Edit: when dwell ends, I will no longer receive any 'free' money. Dwell is debatable as an aspect of owning land though.

No, it's not exactly about 'much stuff for FREE money'. It's about L$ losing some of the buying power which doesn't affect customers purchasing their L$ with RL money... but does affect these earning their L$ through in-game means. The latter not exactly implying 'free' since:

-- last i checked, premium accounts weren't exactly free handouts
-- people earning L$ through sales of their products/services weren't being handed that L$ for free, either.

Since the rest of your post that followed was based on that false presumption, am snipping it ^^;;

Joannah, your argument kind of falls apart right about the time you're forced to use premium accounts to support your position. That would work if premium accounts were required.

They're not.

SL does not REQUIRE a monthly fee, and it further actually GIVES you a small amount of money weekly. This isn't just rare among MMOs at this level; as far as I know, it's unique.

That was the point you missed.

Mhmm, i listed these accounts because they are one of few groups which are affected by the price changes. (while not exactly receiving their L$ for free)

If it's more convenient for you, we can ignore that group. This still leaves another one -- these who earn their L$ through sale of in-game goods and services. Which indeed doesn't require a paid account, but i don't think you could claim their earnings are actually 'free' money.

And yes, finally there's a group of people who might rely strictly on literally 'free' L$ they get weekly on the basic account. Who also get affected by decrease of L$ value ... but who aren't the _only_ group affected by it. Which was the point, as counter to original claim that is all about people crying how their 'free money' is buying them less...

Ah, if all you're saying is that the devaluation of the Linden affects everyone in SL, then I take back what I said. Your point is sound. I just misunderstood it, apparently.

It's not something I find myself especially worried about, but strictly speaking, it's a sound point.

SL is completely unique, and thus, other "MMO arguements" don't really fly here. (This is an "in general" post - not singling anyone out at all - honest.)

Very few MMO's (if any) have a "free" monthly account policy. (I can't think of one offhand that I know of/have played except for Guildwars - though you have to purchase the initial software - so even THAT is technically 'out' because it is not completely 'free' to play.)

Very few MMO's (if any) allow, or in LL's case FACILITATE, the exchange of game currency for real world currency. (Most MMO developers shun this practice and outlaw/ban it.)

Very few MMO's (if any) have ZERO ways to turn unskilled repetitive 'labor' tasks into game currency directly from the developer/software. (All MMO's I've played have been "kill X, get Y coins" games. You smote an orc, and got 8 gold coins. Smite enough and you can be rich. Boring? Sure. Repetitive? Yes. Guaranteed money for little effort? Absolutely.) SL at most has those "camping chairs" or "raffles" or whatever else .. but that money comes from other players/business owners, not magically from a limitless supply of currency from the game itself. There is no way to recieve more money from LL within the game mechanics above and beyond your stipend that I have seen.


Obviously SL is an entity in and among itself. Basically it could be likened to a small country, running its own budget and printing its own money and ALL of us are on a "Wellfare" system. Every single one of us gets "money for free" ... if you have a free account, or a pay account. We did nothing to earn our stipends really ... all we have to do is "exist" and it is handed to us.

Pointing fingers at free account members as "getting a free ride" or "consumers" or "business owners" or "content barons" accomplishes nothing, really. We all get free money ... we all spent it on luxury items (as said before, nothing is "required" in SL) and no one is more to blame than anyone else.


I do not use the US$ to $L exchange. I personally have more important things to spend my money on in my opinion, than on pixels. I understand everyone's rights to do so, and would not hold it against them, I just do not wish to do so.

For me, that basically removes one of the above points on how "SL isn't a typical MMO" for me. I have to live off of what little money I have in SL because I refuse to pump my US$ in to compensate. SL becomes "just another MMO" ... except if I am short $8L for a dress I can't go kill an Orc or three and earn enough to do so.

If prices go up at merchants my spending power goes down. I am left with less "bang for my limited buck" stipend. So where I may have been able to purchase 2 entire outfits a week before, I am left with the ability to purchase only 1.

My options?

1.) Purchase less. (This means I gain less enjoyment from the game - and less merchants will pull profit from my purchases.)

2.) Become a content designer. (This means I have to suddenly find talent to design SL content, the software required, time, and patience ... none of which I have in abundance right now in my life.)

Any others? Not really for a normal steady income. I mean, I've played Poker ... I've won raffles ... I've won dance contests or costume contests ... but all of that is complete and total chance/highschoolish-popularity contest.




SL is caught in a grey area between two worlds. "Free money for everyone" weekly, but inflation and devalued currency. An open system where IRL money can flow directly into SL money and back again. (Imagine what would happen if someone IRL dumped LOADS of cash into SL ... the economy would be disrupted because of the massive influx of "printed" $L. What about if everyone cashed out their $L in the same day, leaving the game devout of money?)

The system is in place ... a flawed (like any economic) system. Any changes will alienate someone. People will cry if they can't make IRL money from a video game. People will cry (myself included) if they can't purchase anything in the game they want to play because money has no value there.


I dunno' .. I got totally off track ... completely babbling, and I'm sorry.


So back to the task at hand .. yes, I agree, shopping is less fun if the prices go up but my allowance is always the same. Tough nibblets, sadly .. nothing I can do about it if I refuse to use the exchange system, and I can't design content.

See, the trouble is, you pay a big monthly fee for the right to be able to bash orcs for stuff, and then you still have to level regardless.

Pay the same amount monthly in SL, and you can have more, faster, than you could ever get in any other type of MMO.

Aside from that, I basically agree, but it's like ... why are people willing to pay enormous amounts to play a pay MMO but completely unwilling to pay a tiny amount to have buying power in an otherwise free MMO?

Curious.

To me, though, as I've said before, part of the point of SL is finding a way to get what you want in-game.

But oh well. Whatever.

My prices are lower than when i opened my shop, but I'm feeling the pinch as i has hoped to use my sales to pay for my premium account. Luckily my SL hisband and I just opened a store on his land so I can get rid of my premium account. The lower exchange rate also squashed my dreams of owning more land to expand.

My competitors increased their prices a while back and I kept them low. But despite the price differential I saw my sales numbers fall. I even had several shoppers ask me why I was selling for so little, was it because there was something wrong with my merchandise. So by selling for less I was somehow implying that my goods were well no good! Crazy huh?

So I matched the market price on most of my goods as of last week. I give up trying to offer products as reasonable prices. I might not be selling as many items but when I do I make more than what I used to make in one day.

So don't complain about the prices. It's just all the rage right now. But this too shall pass....so don't panic.

Troy