secondlife casino owners: you could get charged for rackeetering

Please fix your url.. It's been truncated

I'm not. I'm encouraging people to seek information, not just listen to nay sayers.

The casinos are already there, and have been there for years. This subject has already been brought up many times, and each time Linden Lab has spoken that they are in compliance with state and federal laws. They also follow laws for allowing underage persons access to the Main Grid. Wether we agree with the current practice there or not (and I don't), it is within the legal statutes. It may not look like such, but not everything is visible from first glance.

And Anne,
No one has asked LL anything of this nature in some time. I browse the Answers forum daily as I like to keep abreast of matters like this. It's been months since anyone asked about the legality of gambling in SL. If you don't recieve an answer to a psot there in 5 days (maybe mroe depending on weekends and holidays) PM or e-mail a Linden. Since you seem to respect Ginsu, PM him. Ask him to make a public statement.

I'm not posting there about this, because I've already seen the posts go through and seen the LL replies, so no, I'm not worried. Then again, I don't run a casino. If I did, you bet I'd be talking to a Linden, probably by phone, to find out. A big enough casino and I'd call a RL lawyer.

But if I jumped at every panic post about RL lawsuits that gets posted here on the boards, I'd never log into SL. And such a public outcry without LL involvement (ie the Answers forum) is simply a bad showing to new residents. I feel it is far better to look things over and find out information before panicing.

So if you, or a friend of yours, owns a casino, and is concerned about this, then I would suggest contacting LL until you get a satisfactory answer.

~Jessy

He'll just obfuscate and say "We comply with all laws blah blah blah".

BUt, I'll ask.

Continuation of this quote (for those that don't like linking)



Some intresting things highlighted.

Yes, this was a very bad boy. Seems he wasn't so much as gambling, as he was violating laws to avoid paying taxes. *snorts* No wonder the feds bounced his rear end when he was dumb enough to buy a plane ticket that landed him in the US.

~Jessy

Let me first state that I have not read every single post in this thread and this is just me putting in my 2 cents.

The L$, no matter how much you'd like to believe holds a real world value, is worthless.

Let me explain, no government on this planet acknowlages the L$ as an actual currency. The reason behind this is it has no hard commodity backing. Real life money is backed traditionally by gold, though silver, platnum, and pallidium are also reconized as legitmate backing for currency. For this reason even Linden Labs acknowlages the L$ has no value. The only ones who hold value to it is us, the "players" of this "game."

Now the reason I said players and game is because while we may consider it more like a metaverse or 3d environment with a real economy, the governments and even the industry consider Second Life no more a game then something like Entropia (used Entropia because it allows the legal selling & buying of currency similarly to SL). I know not one person on this board wants to hear or accept this fact, but fact is fact and it'll take quite a bit to change that.

Now the reason I brought this up is because I did notice some people were using the excuse the L$ holds value thus the government can intervine and shut casinos in SL down.

With that said here's my 2 Cents

Just a thought, but you might want to check join dates next to the names of people you're calling newbies. Not that I am particularly offended that you, or anyone for that matter might assume that I'm a newbie, but it can cause one to look silly when the person they're calling a newbie has in fact been in SL a year longer than them.

Oddly enough, perhaps it is because I have been in SL so much longer than you that I consider this thread to be yet another in a LOOOONG line of tempests in a teapot. If I had a Linden dollar for every thread I've read here in the past 25 months in which armchair lawyers, armed with Google and links to out of context quotes from legal and news organization websites, have touted the end of one thing or another in SL because of some court ruling... lets just say I'd have quite a bit more L$ in the bank.

Enjoy your tea, Anna!

Well said, for a newbie ;0

does linden own the servers that run the gambling programs; they allow the programs to run; and they provide the "chips" for playing, after taking us funds in exchange, just like a casino. how is it different? then they exchange the chips (lindens) back into us dollars...

Ron, you seem like a very nice person. Unfortunately your information is incorrect. Nowadays, *no* world currency is backed by metal reserves. They are *all* fiat currencies that take their value from the fact that they can be used to pay taxes in their relevant jurisdictions, and have been . Full Stop.

The L$ is what is known as a "local currency", much like Ithaca Hours or any of the other many barter-like promissory notes in circulation in restricted locales. You use this local currency to trade goods and services (which do have value) within your local community. The fact that within a community of ostensibly 350,000 people I can trade for goods and services (almost exclusively services, but I know Flip offers to sell RL video cards in exchange for L$) with this local currency *gives it value*.

Linden Lab does not buy Linden Dollars. The faciliate the exchange between other users.

Well, let's hear what Ginsu says. Hopefully he doesn't equivocate.

You must be getting a big warm fuzzy feeling in your heart by saving all these casino owners from potential legal trouble. How noble of you to take the time out of your day and warn everyone of the impending downfall of SL casinos.

A couple more observations if I may....

- The legal and criminal liability of Linden Labs and the legal and criminal liability of the owners of the casinos may or may not be the same. The situations are somewhat different since LL does not actually own and run the casinos, but instead owns the servers that host the casinos and facilitates the exchange of money. So in any of these arguments, we need to be clear about who exactly we are talking about.

- For anyone who says the Linden $ is worthless, do I have a deal for you. I'll pay $100 US in currency or even gold in exchange for L$100,000. Since the L$ is worthless this should be an offer you cannot refuse. $100US for worthless fiat is a fantastic opportunity to make money!

What, no takers?

-----------------------

Scenario: Fred joins second life and immediately buys $100 US of Lindens. He walks into a casino and puts it all on the roulette wheel on black to win. He wins. He then immediately converts his Lindens back into $198 US for which he then pays the IRS it's share (no one messes with the IRS) and spends the rest on a mechanical sex machine that works over the Internet. Is any court in the land really going to say that was not gambling because the funds were temporarily converted to Lindens?????

There's an old saying, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a small web-footed broad-billed swimming bird usually having a depressed body and short legs.

I don't have 100,000 L$

My join date is only six months after yours, and I've read and dismissed plenty of "the end is near" threads myself, but that doesn't make Anna wrong. In fact, I think she has a point.

Forget her angry "newbies" comment. Set aside your ego about how long you've been in SL, too; this isn't a contest to see who's been here the longest. Instead, read what she's saying.

She has a point.

Whether the FBI will actually go after LL or SL residents who own casinos, nobody can really say ... yet. But the signs are strongly there that they might. And do you really think that if they wanted to, they couldn't? If you do, all I can advise you to do is wake up.

But why stop there then? Your ISP allows you access to said servers... does that make them an unintentional party to the crime by allowing the unrestricted flow of the bits that make up your eventual transaction?

Even stickier is the fact that Linden Labs billing and finances are taken care of overseas (UK I believe). Even if the 'gambling' takes place here, the exchange into money from the lindex takes place in a different country altogether, which makes the whole legal situation even murkier.

It should be noted, that the major charges in the recent arrests of 11 employees of BetOnSports PLC (Experts: Arrests Won't Hurt Online Casinos), is tax evasion and fraud. As there is currently no US law that bars gambling over the internet, the US government had to rely on the tax code and consumer protection law.





As long as Linden Labs is paying its proper taxes and not taking short cuts as are everyone who is earning a living playing SL, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Wire fraud - is the wire act of 1969 which prohibits doing bets over the wire! The DOJ believes this is the case with the internet as well, which is why they charged these guys.

Holy ****! Stop spreading disinformation about such a critical topic! (like, the fact that people can go to jail!)

The only thing that SL has going for it for *SOME* people is the potatoes are so small.
Everything else - it's CLEARLY ILLEGAL.

However, there are a couple of potatoes in SL which aren't small and they need to realise this. Also, if the DOJ wants to form a dragnet they could cause a lot of collateral damage and some small potatoes could get picked up as well.

Also, the FBI has been in SecondLife before, just let me tell you that for a fact. Actually, a few times that I know of.

I'm not sure other MMORGs have the same distinction.

Oh right, there is also the perma banned factor. Unfortunately, SL attracts freaks who happen to be VERY SMART, VERY CREATIVE, and VERY PETTY when they are wronged.

Put these factors together, and you have a perfect storm for a DOJ SNITCH that will practically force their hand.

Just out of curiosity, If I "sit" at a virtual slot machine in SL and play, where does the code that allows the slot machine to function run? Does it run on the Linden server? Does it run on my computer? A combination of the two?

Tess

""But the wire law doesn't cover other types of casino betting, a federal appeals court in New Orleans ruled. That has left some doubt about whether prosecutors can shut down poker and other casino games that target American players, Cabot said.""

Hmmm! Well, this is really interesting. I guess the DOJ is blowing some hot air.

I have no clue as to the laws on weather gambling in SL is legal or not, but if the 2 questions in second life answers are not answered with a yes it is illegal or no its not illegal then I would assume that there may be some legal ground somewhere that may make it illegal.

with out a simple yes or no answer to the questions posed will only muddy the waters more on this issue.

Philip If you are reading this I implore you please give every one In second life a positive yes or no answer that we all may put this to rest. Please do not side step the issue. please give us an honest answer as to the legality of gambling in second life.

How would you know whether the FBI has been in Second Life. You aren't FBI are you, because I hate the FBI. CIA people are good in my book, but I despise the FBI.

Crucial:

"However, a DOJ spokesman in Washington, Brian Sierra, warned: "We don't comment on potential targets. We view internet gambling to be in violation of federal laws. Those that conduct this business do so at their own risk.""

but then:

"But the wire law doesn't cover other types of casino betting, a federal appeals court in New Orleans ruled. That has left some doubt about whether prosecutors can shut down poker and other casino games that target American players, Cabot said."

So the waters are muddy. My guess: the DOJ/Bush administration is doing a pre-election crackdown and the DOJ is tackling soft targets to make a big show (Ie: bet on sports)

SO the answer is, it's not clear whether or not non sports betting is legal in SL, though it is very clear that the right wing DOJ believes that "We view internet gambling to be in violation of federal laws. "

Pretty freaky stuff.

Good article:

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/analysis_and_features/article1185330.ece