secondlife casino owners: you could get charged for rackeetering

I'm not about to comment on whether the government will attack LL or any particular casino owner without a little research into the law, but I would like to point out to those who state that they have no worries because they are not in the US that the online casino owner who was arrested was not a US citizen nor was he based in the US. He was merely changing flights in the US when arrested. If not being on US soil is your only defense to the possibility of arrest, you may want to give a wide berth. I would also like to point out that the US has extradition agreements with many of your countries. However, I believe that LL will be contacted prior to any prosecutions. The simple fact is that they know that there are casinos operating in SL and they provide the means over which they are operated. I'm not so sure that any TOS can necessarily clear them of racketeering. From what little I have read of RICO, it is an extraordinarly broad law. This is how they took down the mob, after all.

-You come from Mexico (random country, not simgling out)
-You exchange Pesos for USD
-You engage in illegal gambling here in the US.
-You return to Mexcio to exchange USD for Pesos.

Does the US sue you, themselves, or the Mexican currency exchange.

All LL does is set up a system to allow us to exchange RW legal tender for L$. If a person who made L$ in-world by gambling sells that L$ to another resident, yes, LL supplies the means to do so (Lindex). They do not track where the money came from. Nor could they really. There are many ways to make L$ within SL. Which L$ is that person selling? The L$ made on gambling, or the L$ made by sitting on a camping chair while gambling? Maybe from thier buisness on the side that suports thier gambling habit.

And not all servers are (or will not be) based in the US, San Francisco location. Talks are already out about German locations, and I imagine more will follow. The actual physical location really means nothing to that point.

Linden Lab company is based in the US. To date, they follow every US law mandated for a virtual world. IF the US Government changes a law that affects Second Life, then Linden Lab will change to meet the new demands. Laws can not be changed to convict someone of a crime that was not against the law before the law was passed.

So until, and unless, US law is changed to require virtual world creators to track and police gambling within thier world, nothing from the real world can carry over here. There is no law in the US prohibiting the gambling that does occure within SL currently. And any person wanting to cover all the loopholes that will come of such a mandate has a long, hard road of headaches ahead of them.

~Jessy

I'd also like to point out that this person arrested was not charged with running a gambling facility, nor with gambling in and of itself.



He is being held on the charge of illegal gambling across boarders with disregaurd to federal and state laws.

I'm not exactly sure which laws pertain to Linden Labs and SL, but since they haven't came out screaming to stop all gambling, I'd say it's a safe bet (pun intended) that they have all thier ducks in a row and are following all those laws.

Any casino owner actually worried about it is free to contact Linden Lab and ask them if the legal grounds are covered. OTher than that, no I don't think it's a worry. It's just another "OMG!! The sky is falling!" panic attack from lack of information and no effort to find out the truth.

~Jessy

I'm sorry, but I think the content of this post is incredibly naive. So much so, that I'm really not sure where to start...

LL is a corporation registered and doing business in California. They are running servers somewhere that are being used for illegal gambling. Do you really think because the phrase "virtual world" is being bandied about it makes them at all resistant to being investigated, implicated, or shut down? Nobody needs to legislate laws specific to a "virtual world" when the laws for the real world will do just fine.

And, seriously, when the government siezes property from a drug dealer they're really not concerned with whether that Ferrari was purchased with drug money or his savings from working at McDonalds -- it all gets taken. Why would you expect proceeds from illegal gambling vs. other work to be treated differently?

Here's a good quote for you:

"A company spokesman says, "There was no hint of this, and certainly, had they told us, we would have been more than willing to negotiate with them..."

http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_198230624.html

Another quote:

"US authorities were seeking extradition of the others charged in the scheme"

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/131385.asp

"Up until last Sunday the industry was under the belief that being a foreign national and being publicly traded were layers of protection sufficient enough to avoid the rigor of US laws.

The US Department of Justice proved otherwise. The DoJ message to online gambling operators is loud and clear: we can hit anyone, anytime, anywhere."

http://www.theonlinewire.com/articleView.aspx?ID=1102

I'm sorry, but the content of this post shows and incredible lack of the ability to read. So much so, that I'm really not sure where to start...

I stated that LL was base in the US and under those laws. I also stated that they follow all these laws. Though the real world laws do not do "just fine". If they did, they wouldn't be making new laws to include virtual worlds.

Siezing property of a criminal is vastly different from saying who is the criminal. LL simply is another state (CA in this case). Since they follow all regulations, I'd say they have nothing to fear as they are not breaking any laws. The fine point comes in wether the person running the casino, or the one gambling, is in a state that disallows gambling, and then wether that person is guilty of gambling in the state, or is concidred to be "in" CA at the time.

Gambling is a known function in SL. Don't you think if it was illegal that LL would have stopped it by now? If you think LL is that stupid, then you should jsut run screaming away from the falling sky now. I'll be here, and I won't be worried about feds knocking down my door either.

Happy gambling!
~Jessy

Finish the quotes. [relevant highlighted]



Not for gambling. Not for running a casino on the interenet. For rackateering, conspiracy and fraud.

The sky is not falling, chicken little.

~Jessy

If you had read the two posts preceeding that one you would have noticed where I covered the use of casino chips as representatives of value issued by the casino. Linden Dollars do not represent value to Linden Lab who issues them, and are not issued by casino owners in exchange for something of value.

Nevada State Laws use this term to define Gross Revinues of a casino.

NRS 463.0161 “Gross revenue” defined.
1. “Gross revenue” means the total of all:

(a) Cash received as winnings;

(b) Cash received in payment for credit extended by a licensee to a patron for purposes of gaming; and

(c) Compensation received for conducting any game in which the licensee is not party to a wager, less the total of all cash paid out as losses to patrons, those amounts paid to fund periodic payments and any other items made deductible as losses by NRS 463.3715. For the purposes of this section, cash or the value of noncash prizes awarded to patrons in a contest or tournament are not losses, except that losses in a contest or tournament conducted in conjunction with an inter-casino linked system may be deducted to the extent of the compensation received for the right to participate in that contest or tournament.

2. The term does not include:

(a) Counterfeit facsimiles of money, chips, tokens, wagering instruments or wagering credits;

(b) Coins of other countries which are received in gaming devices;

(c) Any portion of the face value of any chip, token or other representative of value won by a licensee from a patron for which the licensee can demonstrate that it or its affiliate has not received cash;

(d) Cash taken in fraudulent acts perpetrated against a licensee for which the licensee is not reimbursed;

Cash received as entry fees for contests or tournaments in which patrons compete for prizes, except for a contest or tournament conducted in conjunction with an inter-casino linked system;

(f ) Uncollected baccarat commissions; or

(g) Cash provided by the licensee to a patron and subsequently won by the licensee, for which the licensee can demonstrate that it or its affiliate has not been reimbursed.

3. As used in this section, “baccarat commission” means:

(a) A fee assessed by a licensee on cash paid out as a loss to a patron at baccarat to modify the odds of the game; or

(b) A rate or fee charged by a licensee for the right to participate in a baccarat game.

(Added to NRS by 1967, 1039; A 1981, 1543; 1985, 803, 2146; 1987, 90, 1274; 1993, 288; 1995, 465, 757, 1496; 1997, 3499)


Ephasis added to section 2 c

You post is encouraging people around here: "oh, it's ok... operate that casino, you won't go to jail".

Jessica, some more quotes:

"The view of the DOJ is and has been that Internet gambling is illegal," said Brian Sierra, a spokesperson for the DOJ."

"We've been saying it for years: Internet gambling is illegal."

Sierra says the department's position is and has always been that anyone either in or outside of the U.S. who operates illegal online gambling operations to take bets from U.S. residents is committing a crime. Period."

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2207220&page=2


Jessica, your posts are legitimizing a stupidly OBVIOUS illegal activity.

I mean, do we have to draw you a picture? Operating a casino that makes real money is ILLEGAL in the us. You are committing a wire fraud act.

There really is NO two ways about this. And the DOJ just showed that they will back this up with action.

It's posts like yours that keep creating doubt in the minds of others that have lead people to be suprised by what's happening here. There should be no suprise under the current administration.

Bush and co have appointed right wing judges which means that you can get indicted for activities like this. That's just the way it is, I'm sorry if that doesn't work with your world view, but the facts are bold face and obvious. Let me repeat, though, in case you missed it the first time:


"The view of the DOJ is and has been that Internet gambling is illegal," said Brian Sierra, a spokesperson for the DOJ."

"We've been saying it for years: Internet gambling is illegal."

Sierra says the department's position is and has always been that anyone either in or outside of the U.S. who operates illegal online gambling operations to take bets from U.S. residents is committing a crime. Period."

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2207220&page=2

Pushing this issue aside or MODERATING it aside, is just covering up something that needs to be made ABUNDANTLY clear. Anything else, is just putting people at risk for criminal prosecution. That's really really BAD KARMA, so I suggest don't do it.

PLEASE STOP IT.

"Linden Dollars do not represent value to Linden Lab who issues them"

You say this the day after a town hall about LL selling L$ on the lindex for USD?

HELLLOO?

I would suggest that your view of "evil" might not mesh with most peoples.

I've already adressed this issue as well.. sorry


Edit: I'll make it easier for you if You don't want to take the time to read the thread.

What's come over SecondLife is this really evil group think. People see other people opening casinos so they think it must be legal.

Well, guess WHAT, the group can be pretty damn stupid.

Then ask Linden Lab if it's illegal and stop scaring the public.

If you are truely concerned talk with the company that is running it all.

Inciting fear as you are doing is also againt the law. To the point that if people pull out of SL over your posts Linden Lab would be within reasonable grounds to sue you for defrimation of character and slander.

Personally, I stated that casino operators should speak to Linden Lab if they are concerned as well. All in all, I advocated seeking information by those concerned.

btw, your post is being reported for saying that I was encouraging an illegal activity. I don't take well to defrimation of character and slander myself.

Have a ncie day.

~Jessy

How the hell do you address that way? Hell, according to lawrence they are doing LIMIT SELLS, they aren't even selling into the market, they are QUOTING AN EXACT PRICE for the L$ they are selling.

If that isn't valuing the L$, I don't know what is.

Good lord..

They are sold but not purcahsed by Linden Lab.. they represent no value.


In fact, they have an unlimited suply.. It's your problem if you buy them

If you are encouraging people to open online casinos on U.S. servers, then that is EXACTLY what you are doing.

-Pall

Jessica, the problem is many many people have asked LL about this, but they keep brushing it aside. It's stuff like that which makes people think that maybe everything is OK.

And this REALLY REALLY sucks. Cause they have Ginsu who should really really KNOW better, but because it's in SL's best interests NOT TO SAY ANYTHING he doesn't, and now people who don't have his legal background are at risk.

I believe the message being sent was

Then I suppose you wouldn't mind if LL adopted a policy just like Blizzard, seeking out and permanently banning all users who tried to sell their Linden $ to brokers or other players for RL money?

-Pall

Here's a quote for you baba:

"A company spokesman says, "There was no hint of this, and certainly, had they told us, we would have been more than willing to negotiate with them..."

http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local..._198230624.html

What about going into a casino and getting casino chips in exchange for currency. The arguement that casino chips are not recognized as legal tender by government can be made here. Yet these chips can be converted to real-world currency just like the Linden.


Sam

I don't like bannings for any reason.. I have always been rather fond of griefers and the like.


As to banning people specificly for selling Linden Dollars... I don't see why that would be a reasonable reaction. Second Life is not a game that can have it's game economy disturbed by outside influences.

If someone wants to ban a user for any reason at all on their own land that would be perfectly fine by me.

I've covered this twice now.. Please read the thread if you wish to find my argument for this.

"“Illegal commercial gambling across state and international borders is a crime,” said U.S Attorney Catherine L. Hanaway of the Eastern District of Missouri. “Misuse of the Internet to violate the law can ultimately only serve to harm legitimate businesses. This indictment is but one step in a series of actions designed to punish and seize the profits of individuals who disregard federal and state laws.”"

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2006/July/06_crm_443.html