Is SL a RPG??

The question 'What is Second Life?" seems to provoke a stronger reaction than the question:- "What is Life?".

I can see it now. Future philosophers spending their entire lives pondering over the question "What is Second Life?"

I think its going to be easier for them to find the answer to the question:- "What is life?".. and definitely less annoying!!!


* Kicks this thread in its whining face *

Who says they aren't rpgs? In Doom, you play the part of a marine hacking and slashing hsi way through hordes. In Myst you play an explorer solving puzzles.

In Second Life you play your persona living their life.

ALL rpgs in the context I give. You seem to be under the false impression that my opinion and definitions are 100% changable by some persuasive argument. They aren't.

I could care less if you consider SL an rpg. I consider it an rpg, and your roleplayed/nonroleplayed reactions (or lack thereof) in world to my creations, vocal or 'physical' enhance my roleplay. Your opinion isn't needed to define my second life. You may cease your attempts to debate a point which is undebatable, you have your view of SL, and I have mine. I do not attempt to sway you from yours. Show me that same respect.

Edit: What is life? Its alot of nonsense blending with good times and bad. our expereinces shape us. If you refer to the raw -nature- of life, what makes us living..well every person is entitled to their opinion.

Well, yes. But think about the implications of what you've said above: if you want to play yourself you have to pay L$ (even US$), whereas if you are prepared and able to play a role, you can build one with the free stuff. So if you are prepared to role-play and do it well, you can avoid paying US$. That sounds a lot like an RPG reward mechanism to me..



But all that implies is that SL has an enviroment which "fits" everything. It doesn't equate to total freedom to wear whatever you like, because it still has to be made.



And in the case of SL, you have a loose goal ("manage to actually do the stuff you want to do", a set of rules to follow, and in place of stats you have a friends list and inventory (although, ok, that's a bit shky because it depends to what extent you mean that "stats" have to be tied into skill abstraction).



Talking about what SL might be like if it were started again from scratch is pretty irrelevant, though. The "fundamental nature of SL" is irrelevant compared to what SL has evolved into. And I don't think the grid was empty when SL started anyhow.

But even if you did wipe the grid clean - what's the distinction between deciding to build SL's first club and deciding to role-play SL's first club owner?

Well, let me refer back to the original point I was making with this is that you CAN look like yourself but you don't need to. And then the point I had before that is even if your character doesn't look like you it doesn't mean you're roleplaying (refer back to last post about physical continuity).





What you mean like life? Therein lies the point.





The goal of "Manage to do the stuff you want to do" sound a lot like the main goal of life as well doesn't it? And life has some rules to follow, and a shaky set of statistics (blood pressure, heart rate, etc.), so if you want to classify Second Life as a RPG and a game because of that, then I would say you would also have to classify Life itself as an RPG and a game. Which means EVERYTHING is a RPG, therefore the definition you're applying to this is too broadly strung.





I think you're missing the point of what I was saying. I'm saying that you were defining Second Life as an RPG because of the program Secondlife.exe and the community. The point I was trying to make here is that an RPG is already clearly an RPG before the community gets there (or if they never do if it's not an MMO), EVERY RPG including MMORPGs has NPC (Non-playable characters) who relay the story, villages, enemies, a theme, etc. Before a player gets there. Secondlife however has nothing. It has a Welcome Area the lindens built that tell you game mechanics and that's all. Which is why I brought up the idea that if you empty WoW out of people and set it back to default of what was released with only the company that made it, it's still an RPG because there's still the story relayed by NPCs, there's still NPC enemies running around, etc. If you take all the players out of Second Life (and you have to take pretty much all of Second Life out since it's all player made except for a few Linden made spots), then all you'd have is a Welcome Area and a few telehubs. No monsters, no story, no NPCs with information, there would be nothing that would say this is a RPG.

Yes a person could go in there and build a town and say this is a RPG to ME, but it wouldn't mean that Second Life is a roleplaying game, just as much as a guy racing horses in Everquest doesn't make EQ a horse-racing game, it just means that guy made his particularly experience SIMILAR to a RPG.

This is the particular part that I think you misunderstood. The question here is "Is SL a RPG??" and to answer that question you can't look at the community of SL but the medium of SL itself. Say I had a piece of paper and I say "This is a piece of paper" you'd agree of course. Then I draw a horse on it, and say "This is a horse" you might say, "yes the piece of paper has now transformed into the horse and it is no longer paper" or you might say "No, it's a piece of paper with a drawing of a horse on it, not an actual horse". If the community is markings then you have the horse and the piece of paper with the horse on it, the horse is covered in mud but still looks like a horse and you'd still call it a horse. The paper has the drawing of the horse on it, and you're saying also that the paper is a horse. However, a person goes and washes the mud of the horse and erases the drawing on the paper. The horse is still a horse and the paper is again paper. This is the difference between RPG and virtual world.

If the ENTIRE grid is made into a GIANT one piece MMORPG, let's say theoretically, so that EVERYSINGLE sim is involved in this RPG. And as soon as you leave the Welcome Area you are immediately entered into something that looks exactly like a MMORPG. Even then the game would not be a RPG. Because all it is is an especially elaborate and realistic drawing of a horse. And all it'd take is for the owners of this grid wide game to leave SL and then the MMORPG would be gone and Second Life would just be the vast rolling empty land outside of a few Linden builds that I talked about. If everyone left World of Warcraft then they would still have a RPG, just a RPG with no people. Second Life would have nothing.

The central idea is, no matter how much the community builds up a roleplaying community or a RPG like game or whatever in Second Life, it's still a simulation built onto the virtual world platform of Second Life.

And if you're talking to someone in EQ! and start talking about game mechanics, or something completely out of teh game context, is a Roleplaying Cop gong to come up and say "hey! This is a MMORPG! You're not role playing!" and kick your asses out?
But, in a real RPG, you could. SL is more like a real role playing game than any of the computer-based so-called role playing games.

SL is the very definition of a RPG... so YES, of course it is...

Is so, is not. Is so, is not. Is so, is not.

Bleh, the very bottom line is it is if you chose to perceive it as such, but the fact that you have the choice reveals its true nature. Its a platform, you want to RP and treat it as a game, dandy. You don't? Splendid. The fact that SL allows both and both are at the same time valid therefore means its a platform.

Your milage will vary, and some, some will just disagree for the sake of disagreement or the apparent deep seated _need_ to get the "definitive-last-word" in.


Carry on. ^.^

That's a really good point. And it's also a good point to say that a lot of people are going to disagree just to disagree, or don't know how to classify Second Life so they group it into RPG, or would just really like to believe that Second Life is a RPG.

So anyways, i've made my points and I don't think I could say anything else without repeating myself.

So enjoy your roleplaying game of Second Life, then log off and roleplay your self at work, then go out and roleplay another version of yourself with friends, and then roleplay yourself that's tired that wants to go to bed. Eventually we'd notice that there is no such thing as not-roleplaying then because the concept of roleplaying brought up here encompasses everything to the point of which it's the normal state of affairs.

You know, when you're using Windows, the mouse cursor isnt you. Its a character that portray you and you use it to interact with the various in-game applications and entities. Same goes to the input command cursor when you're in console mode.

Obviously, Windows is an RPG. You do not look like a cursor - you roleplay one.

You are not the cursor. You are not the bitmap. You are the Buddha.

Well, you seem to be implying that if we take something that IS an RPG, and we start to develop it by making it more and more like real life, then at some point it stops being an RPG. I don't quite see that. If we could have a simulation of life which was 100% like life, it would still be an RPG. Life itself is a special case.



An RPG doesn't HAVE to have these things. If you buy the books for Dungeons and Dragons, you get a set of rules, and a library of object and monster prototypes. That's it. Does that mean D&D isn't an RPG because you start with a blank slate?



I don't see that. If a guy builds a town in SL, he's not really building a town, since the town is not real. So if he's getting the satisfaction of building a town, he's accepting something that is not real, and thus in some sense playing a role.



That's true. But the fact remains that if you fly over to someone's town, then as soon as you refer to that town as a town rather than a bunch of prims, you're role-playing in some sense.

So let me get this straight:

If I build a town in Lego's, and then present it to my friend:
"Observe! I have built a town."

And my friend answers: "Indeed, that is a lovely town."

Does this mean that Lego is actually a Roleplaying game rather then a brick construction platform utility?

it's RPG, cuz some time i play as chick and uh do nasty stuff?

I assume you're refering to what you do in a lego town

I hereby declare lego a rpg.

There's different levels of suspension of disbelief.

Maybe you can call it a town without it being called "role-playing". But, when you live in it...

I can also live in my little lego town in my little lego house by putting alittle lego person in it and calling it "me".

Point is: You may use SecondLife as a roleplay enviroment, but that does not turn SecondLife into an RPG - it turns it into a Virtual World platform that you just happened to use as a roleplay enviroment.

SecondLife is a container. It can run sub-applications with their own individial meanings. You can put a game in SecondLife, or a word processor, or whatever you choose - but these do not cause SecondLife to BECOME the item that is inside of it.

Creating a word processor in SecondLife does not turn SecondLife into an office utility - the object that you have created inside SecondLife is the office utility. SecondLife is the platform that executes it and provides you with the interface. Playing RP in SecondLife does not turn SecondLife into an RPG - it provides you with the space and interface to communicate with people and decide to play along with the terms of roleplay.

That is like saying that SecondLife is Tringo - because many, many people use SecondLife to play Tringo, and that turns it into Tringo. But its not: SecondLife is the platform that -executes- Tringo and provides you with the means to interface with it.

This is why SecondLife is not a RolePlaying Game - Containers do not change forms because of what you put in them. They can only contain.

The entire thing is an RPG to me.. completely disregarding what goes inside 'the container.' It could be slingo or darklife..or antyhing else..strip that all away and..-it is still a roleplaying game.- To me at least. You will never swerve me on this point but you have the right to your opinion (and futile efforts to change mine, not that I will bother listening).

In a debate I would remain openminded. This is no debate, simply a fact as perceived through my eyes.

I prefer roleplaying in excel. Roleplaying with the microsoft paper clip get can a bit boring at times though, I wish they'd make an online version.

...an unless shared by everyone else (all clients of and the more importantly LL itself, neither of which do to exclusion, rather the reverse in fact) it isn't fact at all, merely your singular perception. Great, glad we've finally managed to clear that up and we can all carry on playing in, or expanding the platform as our want.

You got it Memir!


You are free to continue to play our your role in anyway you wont, so long as it does not interfere with mine, or anyone elses, roleplaying (or or lack thereof). I enjoy seeing your roles in this grand rpg.


Edit: Your statement also makes it not a 'fact' that SL is a platform, since thats only your singular view, not shared by everybody.

It's both. It's the map and the territory. It's a floor wax and a dessert topping.

Saying you "happened to use" an environment in which you are encouraged to treat your avatar as yourself (eg, you see "You say: xxx" not "CrystalShard Foo says: xxx" for role play is like saying you "happened to use" a bed for sleeping when it's really just a padded support platform.

Eh, I think I'll take my tip from those whom design, run, and own SL to make the determination as to what it is. LL calls its a platform, s'good enough for me. Flipper, Kim, and others use it as classrooms for online education tied to various universities, HAZMAT response training, or 3D immersive conference centres, and virtual marketing systems linked to 'real world' institutions, that too is good enough for me. Still others use it as a means of income and business (some more successful that than no *cough*150k USD$ in a year*cough*) that as well is good enough for me. ^.^

However if some still want to perceive it as game and play gansta, or they're RPing a giving birth to a baby, or are the great ghod 'Gromolack master of the sim narfnarf and ruler of all it surveys...' then eh, thats valid to, but not carrying quite so much weight as LL et al.

To me anyway, or most I'd imagine.


Its your cardboard box, play in it however you like. Build a fort, wear it as a suit of armour, sit in it and pretend its a boat, or a space ship taking you to the furthest reaches of the know universe in search of blue aliens.

End of the day though, its still a box, as CS said.

Well, me the consumer and creator, totaly disagree about what you are saying Yumi. He has described how an avatar works perfectly. Most ppl thing SL is NO WAY AN RPG but i can see where some ppl think it could be, the ppl who play role playing games with in SL maybe. Otherwise SL is no RPG. Don't believe me, look at the votes . SL can be almost anything you want it to be but if you arn't playing dungeons and dragons or being a gorguen, then SL is anything but a RPG.

ps. noone is trying to change your opinion, if you would just read the VERY first post. It has nothing to do with you, ppl are telling the Person Who Asked The Question their opinions (me). IF you arn't gunna get swayed, don't post here no more and goto some other post because, just as SL is IN NO WAY AN RPG- it is just a container, a platform so to speak.