So yeah....privacy more or less an impossible dream?

I think this quest for "privacy" is stupid. It's a fucking game. If you're doing anything that you're going to be ashamed of a stranger in an anonymous virtual world seeing, then you really have to evaluate one of two variables:

1. Either you're really fucking prudish and you need to just let yourself go
2. or you need to invest in a private sim.

I can't imagine what anyone is doing here that they're afraid of someone else viewing. Pixel sex? Jesus Christ give me a break. This isn't real life. if you don't want your conversations listened to, create a group and then you can send them IMs that nobody else will hear. but if you're afraid of someone SEEING you, go someplace else.

I'm fucking tired of flying below 100 metres and being jerked around because everyone and their mother has laggy security orbs or ban scripts. I neg-rate these people. Because if you're on the mainland and you decide to ban everyone but you and your made up virtual boyfriend and I have to spend MY time trying to get around it, it's a lot more inconsiderate than having someone unwanted hover on your property.

And that's all there is to it. If you want privacy, want to keep everyone out, buy a sim and then you can use all the micromanagement powers you want. I will not be swayed from this viewpoint. I, and any others who are genuinely good people, shouldn't be negatively affected by your paranoia. This is why vehicles and airplanes are a joke. It's mighty fucking hard to fly anywhere when you can't move or your scenic view is of red ban lines.

Joshua, I think you are making two mistakes here.

First, you are insisting that anybody that wants privacy must be doing something wrong or deviant, and that they are ashamed of what they are doing. In your real life, I am sure you wish to have some moments of privacy even when you are not doing something perverted. It isn't fear or paranoia to want privacy. It is human nature.

This isn't real life, but it certainly aspires to it, and in fact borders on it for some people - even if it doesn't for you.

Secondly, you are assigning blame to those who try to carve out some privacy for themselves on the main grid in the only ways currently possible. If Linden Lab would recognize that many residents here desire some degree of privacy, and provide a reasonable means to achieve it, these things which you rail against would not even exist.

There would be no need for so many alts, ban lines, skyboxes and obnoxious security scripts if Linden Lab provided even a modest means to some basic privacy here.

So, you can declare the quest for privacy "stupid," but you will continue to be frustrated by other residents attempts to achieve it until Linden Lab recognizes the basic human desire not to be watched and monitored and provides some way to prevent this.

Somebody recently suggested that Linden Lab create a private zone above 700 meters such that no objects or avatars would be rendered above that height unless you are the parcel owner or a member of the group which owns that parcel. We would need the ability to invite people into this instanced space temporarily, and green dots would still have to show on the map to prevent these private spaces from being used for spying themselves. However, it would seem this solution would be easy to impliment, would clean up the skybox clutter, make unimpeded flight viable again, and would even reduce server bandwidth.

Even though I don't really think we have any real-life privacy, I agree with post #101. It may not be possible, but there is no shame in desiring privacy.

I don't like the banlines either, but LL really needs to have some sort of not_render flag, for true privacy (which was mentioned earlier).

But we do have reasonable real life privacy. It's not perfect, but nothing complicated is ever perfect. And just because we cannot make SL privacy perfect does not mean we should not ask for some improvements in this area.

With the breadth of the domestic spying in this country, I must respectfully disagree, but I feel no need to debate this particular opinion.

Right, and if you read through my previous posts, you'll realize I never said or implied otherwise.

This thread, even though it has had a few flames, is one of the reasons I hate seeing the forums go away. I learned somethings I didnt know. I guess I can find that on another forum in the future but then I'll have to hope I'm on the right site.

I'm not making any mistakes at all. The definition of privacy is a safe space to do things you don't want other people present for. There are a vast number of ways to accomplish this even in SL without becoming obnoxious. World of Warcraft has no "privacy," neither does Eve Online, PlanetSide or any other MMOG for that matter.

Someone wrote in another thread on the subject of security orbs a very brilliant post that I will paraphrase. If you don't want someone to build on your land, set build off or auto-return on. If you don't want someone to sit on your land you can eject and ban them PER INSTANCE without resorting to security scripts or banning everyone arbitrarily. And there's no reason why you need to have ban lines present when you're not signed on.

Beyond these two options you have no right to complain about what someone else does to you when present on a plot other than yours, just as in real life. If someone's using a camera to peer into your windows from across the street you call the police; if they do it in SL file an AR. Resorting to the ban lines so you can have the comfort of knowing no one can fly over your plot is selfish and ugly when there are a good number of easier solutions that don't ruin the game for everyone else who isn't trying to look up your avatar's skirt.

this is untrue of course -

Anarchy online had private apartments - The Jobe Luxury ones were very spacious actually.

Everquest 2 has private rooms and houses.

Neocron had private apartments.

They all used instancing - in that you Zoned into these private spots. Normal players had no way to snoop on you.

Anarchy further had private guild buildings with the AI expansion.

Well-said.

Hmmmm... but reading over a past post, I think I should point out that "it's just a game" isn't exactly a good reason why something should or should not be done. If it were, griefers could use the "INTERNET: SERIOUS BUSINESS" line to defend themselves.

Right, forgive me for making a generalization; clearly now I see that out of the vast majority of MMOGs that do not, three or four exceptions provide private apartments. Certainly this mistake renders my entire argument invalid and I should be drawn and quartered in Ahern.

The examples do illuminate that privacy is indeed possible. However, the salient question is, is it possible in a game with such control in the hands of the user?

My point is that a semblence of privacy is easy to achieve as long as your idea of privacy isn't being in a six-inch thick steel box with no doors. Furthermore, this "privacy" is easy enough to achieve WITHOUT-- and this is key here-- negatively affecting those who aren't trying to spy on you. If you DO need to live in a bubble where no one can watch you, then you need to invest in a sim. Otherwise if you refuse that, excuses of cost aside, you have to be prepared to accept making privacy with the tools provided. And in my opinion ban lines should only be used in rare circumstances and be turned OFF when you're not in-game (I would go so far as to suggest that LL do this automatically anyway) and security scripts be banned all together.

Demanding that everyone pass around your square piece of land because you're antisocial or paranoid is selfish and rude. If you want to be selfish and rude buy a sim.

It could be argued that these people running these security scripts you so despise are simply making privacy by using the tools provided. I won't make the aesthetic ethics argument, because I'm a voyeur and hate the banlines, too. I find the best items by wandering into peoples' homes and teleporting to the discovered creators!

Anything that results in you getting a notice that an object belonging to so and so has pushed you and asks if you want to report them is not using the tools provided.

And when I get that notice, I choose yes.

How so? It sounds like the security vendors and those who utilize their services are simply supplementing the system until the system addresses their concerns (and judging by these threads, there are plenty).

This amuses me greatly. I shall have to do this myself in the future the next time I accidentally run into a banbot.

They work the same way as griefing weapons do. Real life security systems don't throw you 40 metres into the air, they wait until you break into the house.

Wait until I break into the house for fuck's sake!

Yea. IRL if i needed privacy all i need to do is go inside my house and close the curtains. If anyone attempts to break in, all i gota do is have them arrested. Here in SL i can't do that so i gota take it into my own hands and use scripts to eject them. It isn't perfect... their still able to barge in for a split second, and they can still zoom through the walls using their cameras. >.> These are the real idiots. I meen why do they wan't to know what some guy/girl is doing in their own virtual home? o.o I've never wanted to know and never barged in on anyone, but like i've said before i have something special called common sence.

Yes you are, and you continue to make them.

You have declared that the reason people want privacy here is because they are doing something wrong. You assert that because there is no privacy in WoW, it is unreasonable to ask for it here. You suggest that I have no need for privacy, if I am not present in world. And you suggest that I call the police if I suspect that somebody is looking in my windows - that asking Linden Lab for a way to pull the blinds is going to ruin the game for others.

Weren't you making argument along lines of 'this is a game not real life so get over need for RL-like privacy in not-RL environment' ... just a few posts ago?

If you really believe that, then consequently the same argument applies to your own demands: this isn't RL, so get over your need for security tools to act like in RL.

No, true political protest isn't griefing. True political protest is valuable and critical to open dialogue.

That said, I don't think the "IMPEACH BUSH" signs were true political protest. Political protest doesn't come with a price tag ("Pay me $1000 to shut up", because the value of true protest speech is in being said, not in being bought and sold. Speech with a price tag could more accurately be defined as blackmail, coercion, or commercial advertisement.

Moreover, I think anyone interested in democratic dialogue and the right to protest should also be interested in the right of other citizens to not hear that speech if they wish. Coherent political protest doesn't seek to violate the equal rights of others, e.g., "I will kill you if you kill that fetus." This particular kind of hypocrisy isn't limited to SL though, so we don't need to address that here.

While griefers can often be bought with money, true protest can not be bought. All the Impeach Bush land was usually on sale for over L$60/sq m. You decide.

Sel

So what you are saying is that privacy is only for people of means, but the common folk should just accept that they have none?

Why? Why can't we ask Linden Lab for more? We are asking for more tools, better tools, that make the need for ban lines and security scripts obsolete. I still do not understand why you find this unreasonable.

You continue to make this mistake. People want privacy for all sorts of reasons - not just because they are antisocial, paranoid, selfish and rude.

Too many posts to reply to. Ahem.



When you pull your blinds at home it doesn't create an impenetrable barrier 100 metres high the length and width of your apartment that violently throws any individuals outside who happen to cross the sidewalk. This is the SL equivalent of what happens in the game. I have "declared" nothing. I'm saying that reasonable people should be fine with the "privacy" they have in the game, and anyone who needs more than that CAN only need it if they're doing something that THEY don't want other people to see. Otherwise the tools you have, individual bans, eject, auto-return, etc, should be more than sufficient. What need for privacy do you have if you're not on your land? Absolutely none. Set it to auto-return and no one can leave crap there. If you don't want people looking at your shit then lock it up or find a more creative way to hide it. Trap doors go a long way. But you continue to act as if you're special and your need for a bubble overrules the desire other people have to fly around un-impeded. I find that selfish.



I don't have any need for security tools whatsoever, ergo nothing to get over. The ones we have in the game amount to griefing, and when they're used on me solely because I made the unforgiveable sin of FLYING OVER SOMEONE'S PLOT, I AR the owner.




I don't find your suggestions unreasonable if they were implemented in a way that doesn't harm other people. Knowing SL and LL I find that unlikely to be the case, they always seem to manage breaking something in the only way it can be broken, but that's neither here nor there. If you wanted instanced skyboxes etc that's fine as long as it doesn't further tax the sim to instance it. But in this case I was merely pointing out that I think this need for "privacy" is silly. You have enough privacy in the game as long as you're reasonable, and I don't think demanding that no one can see you or touch you or talk to you is reasonable. If that's what you want then yes, buy a sim.

Joshua, you are mixing your arguments up here so it is very hard to follow you. Everybody agrees that ban lines and security scripts suck. You don't need to make that point any more. What we want is something better and you seem to be against that, which makes no sense to me.

You are taking your rather limited views on the need for privacy here and trying to impose them on the entire population. Just becase you cannot think of a reason I would like to keep you out of my home when I am not there, does not mean that I don't have a perfectly legitimate one.

You know something, I don't want you to slam into my ban lines, or get teleported by my security scripts either. But I may also want to prevent you from looking at the real life pictures of my children above my fire place, or keep you from checking out the new product I am developing in my garage.

You have to stop this silly idea that people want privacy because they are perverts. This simply isn't so.

And by the way, I am making my entire argument here on principal alone. I do not use ban lines and I have no real need for more privacy in Second Life. However, I strongly disagree with those who feel the need to denigrate residents who do wish for better tools.

I meant the tools installed and used by *other people*, obviously.


It's then quite amusing you object so strongly to letting people have their privacy without having to rely on security orbs and such. Just think about it. If people could do whatever they want in their own instanced area and have all the privacy they want, as opposed to trying to get it by locking people out of their parcel ... it'd also mean no unnecessary ban lines, orbs and all these things that annoy you to the point of CAPS LOCK EMPHASIS.


That's nice, i duly note your personal opinion on what's silly, and disagree with it. Judging by the number of security scripts and ban lines all over the mainland, it seems to me there's quite large amount of people who also don't share your view on it. And since you have no real arguments to change their mind on the issue, am afraid you'll have to get used to the idea of bans and security orbs acting as poor privacy substitutes until better tools for it are granted.