Secret, unwritten rules to abuse report you with, news at 11

In answer to a post I made in the hot line a couple days ago, I got this answer about Mature content being visible from a PG sim.

"Mature content and behavior is allowed on regions rated "M". Typically we have asked that mature content be discrete, and kept indoors, out of public view.

If you were to put up a sign such as you describe within view of a "PG" rated sim you could expect that an abuse report would be filed, and you would be asked to remove the sign, or to put it indoors, out of obvious public view."

The problem with this is there is no written rule anywhere in the rules of conduct or the TOS that says you can't. The only thing it says is mature content on mature land. It used to say it but it does not currently state anything to the contrary at present. My question is what is the basis for an abuse report if it breaks no rule? This rule was obviously broken during the Burning Man event last summer when a very large phallus shaped fountain was in full view of PG areas. Discussed in this thread:

/120/59/59664/1.html

It was allowed to stay and was even endorsed by Cyn Linden:

"I am afraid that we had a miscommunication in support about the content for Burning Life. Grimalkin's art is not only appropriate, I thought it was quite aesthetic as well. We have sent email and in world IM asking her to please reconstruct her sculpture.
We apologize for the error, it is not our intent to censor artist's expressions in the Burning Life islands."

Sooo, please tell me what am I supposed to think? What do you base your policies on because here it was perfectly ok for a 40 ft tall phallus shaped fountain with water dribbling from the tip in a public showcase of builds in SL yet its not ok elsewhere? Is it just up to individual Lindens to decide because the guy who wanted to display his mature artwork in the open, fully visible by anyone flying around it said he was friends with a Linden and said that there was no policy against it as long as it was in a mature area. He also stated that it was the player's responsibility not to look at offensive material according to the un-named Linden.

Bottom line, the Lindens need to get together and set a policy and write it down. How can people be punished for breaking a secret, unwritten rule haphazardly enforced? Had I not posted my question I would have had to agree there was no rule against placing mature content in the open written anywhere and would have merrily let it occur. I am trying to be a good citizen here and even though there is no written rule I still asked the artwork be placed inside, under a roof simply to get along with the neighbors.

I actaully have a small copy of that from the maker. It is something I plan to.... um.... erect next time I own land. I was using it as a centerpeice to small pond that lead to my skybox beck in Behrii.

On who's PC with what settings?

Not always does a phallus a mature-subject make. There are many instances where the view of one's wepwoductive weasel (even a 40-foot one) is considered quite PG. Notably in displays of art, the baring of the bald bishop is very common. Examples: Michaelangelo's David, Nekkid Adam reaching out to touch God painted on the roof od the Sistene (sic?) chapel, countless roman statues of nekkid Athena, Minerva, etc. Lots of Kibbles and Bits and Bits and Bits.

Considering that Burning Life is considered somewhat of an art-oriented festival, a giant phallic fountain seems oddly appropriate - and therefore quite PG.

Then again...maybe that Sausage of the Stars wasn't a penis (which you're hinting at), but maybe instead a fruit basket - a banana and two mangoes!




- Newfie

Granted, I'm getting hung up on semantics here - but I just can't see how a Phallis (spewing liquid no less) could be PG.

Is it X rated? Well no, I don't think so either - at least not in an artistic context.

To me, a Phallis is mature content.... its just not obscene when its in an artistic context. That's the important difference to me, at least.

However - I recognize that the very definition of 'obscene' is a cultural one, and the RL folks behind the avatars in SL come from all over the globe. It may be difficult to come up with a universal definition everyone would agree upon.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with it on general principles, my beef is how I was told by a Linden that I would be abuse reported for violating no written rule. The fountain is just a really good example as one Linden made them take it down and another had them put it back up. The maker of the fountain was disiplined for building it on their land yet it was allowed and endorsed in a public venue.

I am just asking for a little consistancey from the powers that be, if there is a rule that peple can be punished for, heaven sakes write it down.

It would help to have some idea of the content that you were putting up that to compare it to the incident with the Phallus in Burning Life. Personally, I am against even having PG areas, but given they exist and the community seems to want these restrictions, I agree that consistency is required.

The central point for whether a phallus should be displayed in PG area would be whether or not it's considered to be "ART," which is how the Burning Man Phallus suposedly got a pass. Many people (like myself) did not agree that a giant penis sculptured in faux marble could really be considered "ART" and thought it to be a crass kind of thing that only a 12 year old could love, but determinations of what is "ART" are notoriously difficult to make as a community. That's why most communities leave it to the experts. (*BIG HINT*)

In this context, whether or not it's in your backyard or in Burning Life, if it's "ART," they should by all rights allow it to stay right where it is. Otherwise they are being HYPOCRITICAL.

This doesn't mean that they have suddenly lost all control and that anyone can put up anythign and call it art. It means that they made a MISTAKE when they allowed the Phallus to stay up in Burning Life. Burning Life (that year) was a non juried show with no "experts" no critique, and was therefore NOT an "Art Show" or a venue where someone could get away with that sort of thing. It was basically just a bunch of stuff in various lots.

The key here is to make shows of "Art" like Burning Life, proper JURIED shows with proper CURATORS. This would mean that stuff like the Phallus would technically be possible and also that such content could be dissallowed on other PG public lands without Linden Labs being essentially hypocritical. Unfortunately for the makers of Giant spewing Peni, it would also mean that the curator would lkely not have accepted this thing as "Art."

Another key point however is that the Penis was mostly allowed to stay because half the FIC screamed so loud about it (and went there and *sat* on it and took a group photo), that the Lindens basically had no choice. Those of us that found it to be tasteless junk were jut not listened to in this case. (another reason to leave such determinations of "ART" to the experts).

Is this really an unwritten rule? I've never looked. I've known about it since beta and thought it was common knowledge.

*wonders what one could do with the shape of an entire island, for art's sake*

Make a penisula?

*thwap*

That's just it, it was written down but it isn't now. The changes to the TOS and rules of conduct do not state anything other than mature items on mature land.

5. Indecency
Second Life is an adult community, but Mature material is not necessarily appropriate in all areas (see Global Standards below). Content, communication, or behavior which involves intense language or expletives, nudity or sexual content, the depiction of sex or violence, or anything else broadly offensive must be contained within private land in areas rated Mature (M). Names of Residents, objects, places and groups are broadly viewable in Second Life directories and on the Second Life website, and must adhere to PG guidelines.

Global Standards, Local Ratings
All areas of Second Life, including the www.secondlife.com website and the Second Life Forums, adhere to the same Community Standards. Locations within Second Life are noted as Safe or Unsafe and rated Mature (M) or non-Mature (PG), and behavior must conform to the local ratings. Any unrated area of Second Life or the Second Life website should be considered non-Mature (PG).

That's it. That's all I can find on the matter. According to what is written here I can have a 20m2 billboard with a hand drawn depiction of dragons having very graphic gay sex fully visible into a PG sim as long as it is on my private property on a mature sim. This also means I can have a 40m phallus fountain with water effect or a vagina for that matter. According to the written rules that all of us are required to read and accept that is; but upon asking I find I can be punished but no rule was cited. "Common knowledge" is not enforceable and how can someone who started SL yesterday supposed to know?

Well, no offense, but isn't this just common sense?

Do you mean to imply that the CS embody common sense? Or are they just poorly re-written versions of 1950s era American self-contradictory judicial morality?

Common sense according to who's culture? The Japanese are quite fond of putting phallus shaped fertility idols all over the place. On Castro street in San Fransisco you can see all manor of mature and graphic artwork in full public view. In many places in the world what we Americans consider graphic mature content is everyday or even religious. Common sense indicated that I have the artist put his display under a roof and I did that, but he still had a valid argument that there was no rule against it and I have to agree.

Your argument is sunk by the fact that you already knew this to be a rule...



Now granted, that will make it hard for new people to know it's against the rules, but you knew.

Are you serious? The term common sense, along with common courtesy and common knowledge, has fallen out of usage because the behavior they make reference to has become uncommon.

There has been a definite evolution in what is generally agreed to be acceptable. The display of mature "things" have gone from relatively discrete to blatant. Relying on a general consensus is a mistake in that many conflicts and misunderstandings could be avoided if a defintion of terms were spelled out.

This is the "but mom, everyone else is doing it" argument. I agree that it should be spelled out and I'm not sure why it's not, but that doesn't change the fact that the OP knew this was against the rules at one time and was never told that had changed.

But, to use a somewhat hyperbolic example, if you knew that there was an anti-sodomy law on the books and then went looking for the same law and found it no longer there, mightn't you reasonably infer that something had changed?

I would argue that the fact that the ToS had a specific amount of text removed about this specific situation means that it was indeed changed. Why else would it be omitted?

If this was simply a matter of rules being lifted for a certain amount of time for a certain event, then the ToS should reference this (i.e. "During certain events, LL reserves the right to allow certain objects that are deemed mature-rated by Linden Labs to be within view of PG rated sims".

I think the current ToS, in terms of defining what constitutes mature, PG, indecent content, etc, is kind of ludicrous. For there to be any consistency at all, this needs to not only be spelled out to the letter, but updated regularly. Either this is a rule, or isn't.

I agree with a previous poster though. We need to know what the context was that LL asked you to remove your object. What object was it exactly?

Not if I'd gotten in trouble for sodomy and then went to look at the rules. The OP has a good point, but I still think that having a giant penis visible from a PG sim doesn't require the use of rocket science to know it's probably not going to be kosher.

The rules in SL have never been strictly defined. More so they have always been open to interpretation by individual Lindens. This has been a long term problem that doesn't seem to be on the road to resolution as yet. I find it very uncomfortable when I read that the Linden right hand doesn't a)know, b)care, c)does the opposite of what the Linden left hand is doing.

Yes we do need consistency. However that is a hard thing to ask when LL has traditionally been an untraditional company. LL policy is kind of like Russian Roulette.

Mar

hahahahahahaha!

coco

Sorry, but one of my big pet peeves is people who throw that word around improperly, particularly in big, bold letters like it's some shocking, world-shaking thing that they are revealing. "A witch! A witch! Burn her!", it isn't.

A hypocrite, one who is hypocritcal, is someone who says one thing, but does (or believes, depending on how unforgiving you are) another. It is not a person who does one thing, and does another thing different from the first thing.

If LL said "You can't put mature art in PG sims", and then went and did it themselves, that would make them hypocritical.

If LL said, "You can't put mature art in PG sims", but then said, "Ok, for this event, those rules are suspended", that does not make them hypocrtical. At worst, it makes them inconsistant.

There is the crux of the problem, how can you be in trouble for sodomy if there is no law or rule against it? That is the point, it was against the law but it isn't in the lawbooks now. IE therefore, any officer of the law enforcing a law that is no longer valid is himself committing a crime, a crime of false arrest. One cannot be held accountable for laws that do not exist or no longer exist except in places where the rule of law is arbitrary like a corrupt dictatorship or an organisation run by the insane.

#1. There was no rule actually broken by anyone, this is a hypothetical question.
#2. I am not a fool most of the time, I know displaying mature content like a giant penis is going to cause problems. The thing is, if it is against the rules, write it down so I can whip up a reference to back it up when someone decides to put one up. As it stands now, all I can say is, "because I said so" which is rather weak.
#3. Because I remember the good ol' days when there indeed was a passage declaring mature content must not be in full view means absolutely nothing. I remember when it was illegal to sell a can opener on Sunday in Texas, doesn't mean I can call the cops now because Wally World sells can openers 24/7. That would be insane.
#4. How can a newbie know if it isn't written down. Telepathy? Disciplining someone for an unwritten rule is nuts, unfair, and does not attract or retain players.