Shields=Griefing? and other combat problems

LOL nevermind. Hah
Someone I know got hit by somethin and ended up in a porn shop somewhere and that was the last straw so they quit. heh

Fair enough then. ^.^

Ahhh, okies, well thats a 'push weapon' and strictly speaking an entirely different monkey than even the kill bullets we're talking about. Frankly with out consent they (push weapons) are just greifer tools and as such show up on a clients PvP as a AR-able offense. Your friend ought to have just AR'd whom ever was doing the 'pushing', bit of a moot point now though I guess, but the Lindens have always been fairly quick in response to that sort of thing in my experience (and I've been orbited a _lot_ ^.^; ).

eh they would have quit anyway, theres porn every 15 feet

Yeah heh I think she just got tired of SL to top it all off. That being one reason I'm sure.

The combat sims are just that, combat sims. Before I started using weapons in the combat sim I contacted one of the Lindens to find out what was acceptable weapons for these sims. I was told that pretty much anything goes as long as it doesn't crash the sim lol.

So my advice to you would be the following:

1. Buy better weapons.
2. Deal with the fact that you are in a battle sim and in a battle sim there is a chance that you will get killed.
3. Or just don't go to them.

ActuallY I do buy better weapons and I do NOT mind dieing. I beleive I made that clear several times already. Unless you mean I should sink to the level of someone even mroe unskilled than myself and purchase something like Meteor or get my hands on a sim crasher. If that's the case I'll stick to adult games then which require some thought.


I do have a question though. If I was to have an open air sex pit on my mature land in full view of everyone else's houses, and made use of it regurlarly would you suggest Everyone else buy bigger walls or quit going to their own plots? After all they don't NEED to go there or even own land so why should I care?

can somebody regulate what kind of scripts are allowed in a certain area. So if you only wanted guns and shields you found fit could you regulate that.

Also, if sims did get feel that someone was violating there rules, and they had people fill out a contract before hand could they have and area impossible to telly out of, like jail

I Play EVE-Online as a pirate called Corvus Dove. I'm decently successful, and considering the nature of the beast is griefing griefers, maybe my input will help.


Combat sims, IMHO, should have a list of people allowed and block people who don't belong there out if they're a good sim. A banlist with an auto-tracking defense mechanism, like a sentry turret that will not target until they're in the killzone but will send their sorry butts home on their way out of it, would work. Put one at each logical vertex of the activity area and at the middle of each side. 150m targetting range with a 90-180 degree targetting radius facing inward to the property, and 500m shot range at 360 degrees should do, but make it a variable you can mod quickly. The way the turret should be coded is to lock anyone not input into its sanction list, and warn them to leave. Failing that, an instant damage type should apply. Bullets that materialize inside the shield with a nice particle explosion, if you want realism. "Matter-Graviton Collision Turrets" or something, you can realistically backstory anything if you think hard enough.

Or use Lee Linden's script suggestions.

I know it saps from realism, but all you're facing is the same problem anyone who's ever run a PvP mmorpg has faced, and when it comes down to it, some sort of border defining security system has always had to be the solution.

Take up knitting. Clearly going into a battle sim - and getting shot - is too excitable a scenario for you.


- Newfie

PS: Macrame might be nice too

Care to eleborate on this paradigm altering stance of yours? I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, nor one that spells well, but even I'm capable of more convincing arguments than that. Surely you, someone who is more than secure in his opinions, can justify your seemingly immature statement.

Macrame. >D

I do agree, auto targetting, can't kill me but everyone else is constituent atoms/bytes (depending on your view of SL or avatar (omg Tron avatars!)) shields and/or weaponry is just dumb. I don't oppose grenades (within reason), I don't oppose grenade launchers (within the same boundaries, or guided missiles (GUIDED missiles, not auto seeking missiles), and hell I'll accept that a chain gun with barrels as thick as my tail (cougar avatar. Cougars have pretty thick tails) would kill any normal person instantly.

I think the issue though is that "damage" doesn't seem to be permanent enough. A reasonable 5-15% damage per hit doesn't last long enough to make a difference. Within seconds you're full health again (unless the regen rate is somehow controllable, I don't know I haven't owned land). So really the only way to bring a conclusion to combat is to make something with high damage and rapid fire capabilities. For many people, especially FPS n00bs who like ruining games with wall hacks and aim bots, it's too slow a process to shoot at someone and miss due to bad aiming skills so much that their quarry recharges to full health.

To this end, I propose that SL's imposed health system in non-safe areas is flawed and needs replacing with a non-regenerative version, or better yet one with a variable control (with a range of 0-10% per second). I also propose an llSetHeal(float health) in contradiction to llSetDamage(float damage), or allow negative values in llSetDamage to once again heal the afflicted target. It is my belief that insta-gib weaponry is the result of people frustrated with having to overcome the high regen in a sim. The inability to heal on one's own in 0% regen sims removes much of the need to "omg pwn!" with super weapons, the thrill of the hunt with a 5% or 10% damage weapon has meaning once again. And with the ability to restore health, scripted health packs are possible and an actual FPS game can start to take shape.


There will always be ass hats, but there are automated defense systems (as previously suggested) to take care of them. Also worth noting, a lot of newbie griefers get outfitted at the freebie areas. Most (all?) of those weapons must fire a projectile from the avatar, and are not outfitted with prim penetration capabilities. A smart cage system (one that tracks the avatar and stops physics, and then elevates them to a safe height from everyone else, say 400m) would effectively nullify newb griefing.


Addendum:
Having completely gotten off topic, I'll just add that I'm not against shields in combat sims so long as there's a restriction. Like it's only active when crouching or it goes inactive after stopping so many objects in a particular time frame (ablative, regenerating shielding?). Shielding outside of combat sims I fully endorse as active and auto-retaliating. If anyone shoots at me with an avatar seeking nuke with super push, I sure as hell want my shield to cage their ass immediately and stop me from getting flung more than a few meters.

Untrue. If you had better weapons you'd be very hard to kill. I know that I can rez and live as long as I want for the most part in combat sims and I dont even have to resort to any illegal tactics.

This is the case for many people who read notecards and are innovative enough not to piss off the masses.

As for your sex pit segue, not really sure the point of that, I guess that was ironical or something, but if you don't like the combat sims dont go...simple.

The end.

Honestly Id suggest not setting home in combat sim as it provides you a re-rez location that never changes...just move around...rez to where the green dots arent and hope for the best

This already exists.

My landmark "Rausch Sandbox - Safe Zone, Combat (sandbox) Rausch (170, 190, 2"
It's no-build and safe. If you sit in there or have an anti-push thing you can't be touched.

I don't have much to add to this topic, except to say that I found this sentence incredibly amusing:



Hooray for sex and violence!

So without resorting to shields, sim crashers, and auto kill systems how do you dispose of those who require such items to be effective? And how do you consider a lack of common courtesy,or even an attempt at some effort from your opponents fun?

Read my first post carefully it is a complaint not against other more skilled opponents but against those who would not be welcome in a good majority of true shooters. Munchkins to use a pen and paper term. Perhaps I have yet to make that point crystal clear yet?

And you also did not answer my question. Would you tell them to buy bigger walls or go elsewhere? A simple yes or no will suffice.

well since blowing virtual people away is considered a more acceptable role within main stream civilised society than the practise and refinement of erotic chat for the entertainment of others I often wish to integrate them both into my regimen and keep my skills at an adequate level to enjoy both when needed.

but there is a certain level of competence in those who engage in sensuous encounters. Part of an understnding that you strive to please your partner as much as yourself. Certainly such a gentleman's agreement should be found in the more acceptable realm of digital bloodshed, yet here in SL I have found it sorely lacking in those who make regular use of combat areas.

Infact I have had other encounters since the ones in my original post. One in a no guns, no bombs, no shields area.

Maybe it's too early in the morning, but I don't understand your font. You need a shield, you need weapons, need a fast moving non-physical sit, and you need to understand ppl will try to spawn kill so in that case move up and up and up and up...wait for the green dots to quiet down...move to other sim (there are 3 Rausch combat sims) and yes to your question...ie, if you can't take the kitchen heat stop role playing as Sylvia Plath.

p.s. I read your first post carefully, but you digressed to other things and so as the thread moves so does my fontification.

I see well then I beleive we have reached an understanidng despite my own limited skill in the field of debate.

It' kind of sad to see such apathy for your fellow player, but Light needs a shadow to be measured against I suppose.

Perhaps if you were to be spawn camped like I was or endured the more recent bout of lameness I've encountered you'd change your tune.

One more question. If there was a sim wherein you were not permitted your shield and devices whihc don't even require aiming to obliterate your adversaries, and had a moderator to insure BS like spawn camping would get you booted Would you go?

LMAO...I get spawn killed as much as anyone on SL...ask the makers of the weapons you complain about.

Stop whining...they have abuse reports, use them.

- fin -

~ Calix

Rhubardin's right. Combat in SL is pretty pathetic. In my opinion, the existence of unstoppable shields and the weapons to break them in questionable, but I guess, acceptable, as a means of defense against those that would harrass you. I don't agree that they are acceptable as the tools of comptetition in a combat sim, I don't see where the fun is in that, and in a combat sim, the objective is to have fun, as far as I can tell. But unfortunately, the average person's need to 'be the most powerful' and have the 'best of the best' is impossible to break. I've plated online FPS's often enough to witness the players calling another player a "hacker" because they are genuinely skilled.

Skill plays little part in SL's combat zones, its all up the the people with the most L$ and the biggest guns. I do have to mention a weapon I've recently made that I've begun selling in my shops to avoid sounding hypocritical. It's primary fire mode, a submachine gun, does 45 damage per round, meaning it'll take three to take down an unshielded, full-health opponent. Its secondary fire mode, a railgun, will crack mostly any shield in damage areas, including every "sit shield" we've tested it against, and do 100 damage, as a weapon that is nowadays only capable of being mounted on a battlecruiser would, and as anyone using an overpowered shield in a combat zone deserves. It would be my hope that more weapons would function like this, a primary mode to combat other reasonable players, and a secondary to bring down others that feel the need to obliterate everything by abusing rediculously overpowered script methods.

But that's not going to happen. Right now, if you want to have fair combat in SL, you're going to have to look for zones set up for just that, or, like Memir mentioned, use the special systems designed to make combat fun and skill-based again. Setting up a combat sim has been a sort of dream of mine, where infinitely powerful shields would be outlawed (though certain specially made ones would be allowed, say, for space fighters that employ energy shields and can take damage just as the fighter can, or be disabled with EMP, for example) and only approved weapons would be allowed. I don't currently know of such a place, but am glad to report that alot of the military groups of SL, such as the Alliance Navy do not allow their recruits to use shields, or they will be ousted from the group. You might wanna hook up with one of those groups if you're looking for like-minded individuals, interested in fair combat rather than a tech display.

Good luck, in any case.
-Ani

A tech-enforced combat sim would be a very good idea \o/. Combat in SL has unfortunately devolved into the realm of he who can script the best uber-ultimate invulnerable shield system with automatic hyper-beam super ultra death spewer modes. Unfortunately, the SL arms race isn't limited by technological capability (past the point of what is/what simply isn't possible with the limits of the engine), weapons became ridculously overpowered, and thus also were the shields designed to stop them.

I come from a breed that prefers FPS-style combat over who can type in a string of commands followed by a target's name, where the weapon you wield is a means, not and end, and the most important tools at your disposal are twitch reflexes, keen awareness and a tactical edge. Several very capable combat groups in SL have formed out of this core philosophy- the Merczateers (Second-Life Marine Corps), the Alliance Navy, and the Grand Army of the Republic being the three largest groups out there in terms of size and activity. While I won't be discussing the Republic much, I do know the Mercz and the AN both have strict guidelines on griefing, rules of engagement, what is/isn't considered a griefer weapon, fair combat tactics and of the utmost, zero-tolerance for shields. In my mind, (and sorry to those who make 'em, I have shields myself and never use them in a fight for this reason) a shield is merely a crutch - a big crutch for when your own skills aren't enough to outmatch your opponent and you're merely there to win, any notion of honorable or realistic combat be damned.

Before I get too far into this, I will note that there are groups like Starfleet who, in various RP'ed scenarios, will use deployed shields, or marginally-effective personal shields as mere additions to their gear. Deployed shields that can temporarily blanket a squad from a flanking manuever, for example, would serve nicely (and no, these don't need to be super forcefields; a hastily deployed barricade wall or bunker could do this just as well). The problem arises when people start wearing shields, shells, movelocks, sitshields, retaliators, what have you, making them completely invulnerable to what one would consider a conventional "aim and fire" attack.

Lemme touch on rules of engagement next. They're very simple; Never engage a civilian (i.e. unarmed noncombatant, someone not affiliated with any recognized combat group you are an ally or enemy of), never engage an ally unless absolutely unavoidable or ordered to, never fire on anybody on unsafe land, and never fire on anybody in unsafe land from a safe zone. Other groups have variations or additions to this, but the basic concept is the same.

Before getting into weapons; one might consider these groups to be roleplay-centric. The Merczateers are based on a modern Soviet army. The Alliance Navy is based on a futuristic spacefaring military force. The Grand Army of the Republic is based on Star Wars of course. Each has their own weaponry appropriate for the theme, and while they skirt around occasionally (Merczateers with railguns, AN personnel with revolvers, etc.), they generally stick to their respective tech brackets. It's important to note however that regardless what weapons they use, there's one they don't use, and that's shields. Homing weapons are also generally a nono, with the exception being where realism makes them appropriate (guided missile launchers, av-tracking SAMs, that sorta thing).

The weapons themselves are generally produced by the group they're for. The Merczateers have their standard-issue MP5. The Alliance Navy has their bread and butter weapon, the AN-TAR III and it's support variations, and other weapons such as the Marine-issue pistol AN-TP and fully-automatic AN-SAW which see the most common use, though more weapons are under development. Differences in performance and capability are marginal.

Fair combat generally no longer exists as far as I can tell, with the exception of the occasional Frag-foo game or CCC dogfight, in the realm of SL outside of the combat groups I've mentioned, and while most of the major notable weapons in SL, such as the Lawgivers (which can be *incredibly* realistic on the right settings), or the Meteor and Harbinger (which are packed with so many capabilities they've unfortunately become griefer-magnets) get tougher and nastier, there are other weapons systems, like Outland Tech's OT-CFS01 "Jahi" which attempt to bring a return to smart, combat-oriented weapons design. We'll see if Anisa's efforts are appreciated or whether they're swept under the rug by the next ridiculously powerful Homing-Beam Megacannon.

Only time will tell.

Mew
-Nan

To everyone who so far has agreed with me on my righteous issue I thank you for restoring some faith in the combat side of SL.

For those that disagree with my true and virtuous quest for fair, fun combat...stop your whining.

Right now I have discovered Darklife with its standard fantasy MMORPG setup and I've been trying it out. no PVP that I cn see though but I do get to be a level 5 tentacle hunter with a massive sword.

Also the Speculass pirate ships and the personal combat systems for them are proving to be fun even if I have no idea how to sail and the melee system is a bit awkward.

I've also installed CCC and Terr combat on my airship the Mega Craptastical(which I've test flown around Furnation several times). Haven't taken it into a dogfight yet but it'll happen someday


Yet these still pale in comparison to the possibilit of the more visceral and exciting FPS potential of SL's own combat system.

But I guess as long as people need god mode and nothing but the most powerful weapons with infinite ammo to have their fun in a frag fest we won't see much in the way of change for the best. Most likely a dip into further barbarism until LL steps in and fixes everything themselves.

BUT take heart my noble comrades in arms. If any of you carry out an idea for a more structured combat area in which to enforce your own visions of fair play. I cheerfully volunteer my meager services to aid you in the endeavour. providing your dream sort of coincides with my own in some way.

In fact I have some ideas for the nature of such an area if anyone is interesting in chatting in game since sadly my group list is full and I cannot spread my wonderous message to fellow blood spillers in that manner.

Skill actually does play into it. If you want to beta test something, really get a good litmus test for how well it works, you need skill, knowledge and to be able compile the data to make the object better.

Contrary to popular belief MANY prominent weapons makers are not big into push objects and that can be easily stopped by simply sitting. As for the rest, you are correct a lot of ppl buy stuff b/c they have the $, but that doesn't mean they can use it as well as someone else and that makes a big difference (look for the ppl putting their new boxed weapon on their head for more info on this one...)

No matter. My biggest gripe recently about the pvp sims is the lag. The people who intentionally put linden made fire x1000 and basically make the sims unusable. Not sure what the official definition of 'griefing' is, but making 3 sims have a basic fps of 0-3 might fit the bill.

Anyhoo, Im hungry...it's lunch time. Ciao.

-Calix

Isn't that a bit oxymoronic to say? lol


'If you don't agree with me you are a whiner!'...err isn't that how this thread got started in the first place?

Hmm...curiouser and curiouser.