Shields=Griefing? and other combat problems

Allright Quick story I have been to Rauschand a few toher combat sims off and on over the last few months and each and everytime I go there someone eventually shows up with some lame uber shield and starts tossing around nukes on everyone. So I got me some shieldbreaking weapons for those eventualities and watched most of my friends/targets move onto to more carnal activities as I sought out the occasional bit of bloodshed for fun.


Then one day as I was informing a new player on the Bergman cons I was shot by an auto targeting weapon which sent me home. So I zoned back in and started shooting the guy up with my own auto tracking weapons until he started shouting that he'd report me if I didn't call them off. Which I found hard to do as he had several friends constanly blasting me and the teleport function was broken so I couldn't even be sent home.

Finally the Catalyser shut off and they left, only to return with more friends five minutes later who sat around me with some kind of auto kill weapon whihc barraged me with a stream of "you have been killed but cannot be sent home" type messages until I got sent into orbit. Fine shut off my broadband and waited for the game to crash then logged back in using the arrive at home feature in preferences.


Last night we were in the Blue team's HQ testing weapons on each other and some other people showed up and started dropping colored blocks on us. When I asked what they were they dropped more on both of us. So when I shot back guess what happend? Yep death after death as I was repeatedly killed while sitting in the spawn point. So my partner asked if they could kindly stop that and after five more minutes they did....after killng him once or twice as well.

During these incidents none of my guns were effective either because of some wussy auto slaughter feature or cowardly shield system.

I like combat and I like the weapons one can own in SL but I think shield systems are a bane on the implementation of combat SIMs. At least the retaliation functions should be conisdering abuse after a certain point.

Any ideas?

Yes get a life.

/me checks for pulse.

Still got one as far as medical science is conscerned. I was hoping for more detailed responses to my rant though.

Comments like the snappy one above are bound to happen with this sort of subject. That's the nature of the beast here in these forums. Sorry that was your first reply. As an NRA advocate in real life and an avid FPS player, I will offer my thoughts on this situation in SL with gunplay (without snarky, trolling, pointless comments).

First off, glad to hear you're keeping your gunplay to the combat sims. I think this is an important point. Not all shooters take their toys to the mainland to grief. You've obviously been responsible enough to keep it where it belongs.

I can sympathize with the frustration of auto weapons, shields, etc. The LSL scripting language gives a coder a great deal of power when designing weapons/sheilds.

Unfortunately, this leads to a lack of realistic (fair) weapon builds in SL.

I personally don't have a problem with shields. A vest, for example (like a bulletproof one), that could stop bullets of a certain caliber would be cool in SL. Of course, like in real life, it would be nice if it was limited.

Shields that stop bullets permanently are kind of lame in my opinion. I like realism, personally. And I especially like realistic gunplay when it's related to an FPS type situation.

But then there are shield breakers. Phantom bullets. Auto targeting bullets. Etc. Those combat the shields, but again, I think they are lame because they're rather unrealistic.

Most bullets in SL are set to 100% damage. One shot kills.

I think, depending on the weapon, this option should be used sparingly. (I believe, but I'm not positive, OpFor makes weapons with realistic damage paramaters. Or at least they did, I'm not sure if they still exist).

Of course, using realistic weapons against unrealistic defenses just makes your life more miserable.

It would be nice (but totally unrealistic), to get some kind of regulation on battle rules within Second Life (which I think is what OpFor was aiming for with there damage related specifications).

Imagine a bullet that actually damages a target accurately based on where it hits you (head, torso, limbs, etc). And shields (vests, etc), that can stop or reduce the damage that projectiles will do to your avatars. All based on realistic data from various caliber weapons. That would be neat. But with the freedom to code in 100% damage and bullet disabling technology in scripts, it isn't going to happen. At least not universally. You'd have to gather a group of friends that would all play by "the rules" and use only approved weapons/defenses.

I feel your frustrations, but I'm afraid that's the kind of thing you'll run across here with our freedom in coding.

The best advice I could give would be to start up a group or something, for like minded people who enjoy weapon play without the type of weapons/shields you don't want to use in battle. The stuff you find unfair, etc.

You aren't going to get everyone backing you on this of course. People like their weapons/shields. And as that goes, no combat sim is safe (or fun in some cases).

However......... From what I remember, you can rent rausche(sp) and the red/blue homebase sims for a day(I think) for a certain price. And you can then restrict access to just your party.

So get together some buddies, pool your money (I don't remember how much exactly, but it's in the low to mid thousands of L$ for the rental), and use "approved" weapons and shields and have it all out.

Other than that... Welcome to FPS'ing in SL. The freedom to code and create here is great. But with that freedom comes a price. That's why I keep my shooting to the real life range, and other FPS games where there are rules and restrictions.

Plus, my avatar (and his theme) would just look wrong with a projectile weapon of modern day technology. So I stick to prop swords and gladiator-like things.

Best of luck. Hope you can find some fun gunplay here without all the frustrations.

If an automated system is preventing you from participating in a combat area of SL, that is, in fact, against the rules and you should involve a Linden immediately.

You can save your home point in the combat sim, so if you get blown up you don't gotta worry about going far, and if that still a problem, then try not going to a combat sim...simple as that meatbag

The problem in my second case was that I WAS bound to the spawn point in the Blue team's HQ so when they had their little meteor or powershield or whatever the heck they were using and stood there. I was fragged every few seconds.


Gladius and Enabran thank you for your support, ideas, and advice.

I Prefer a bit more gonzo to my ranged weapons and I am not totally against offhanded targeting to an extent as it does require some effort on the user's part. In fact my favorite weapons are from Space Monkeys now that my redemptions are messed up. I only use them when I have to or am asked though.

Well I did use the poo monkey attack in rausch one day without consent. But it does no damage and I said I was sorry afterwards. Still got shot for it but I deserved it in a way.

That being said I own a wide variety of weapons and the Hellsing recreations I bought are turning out to be nice and don't instakill from what I've seen.. Also my friend Ralhir found some guns with adjustable damage that goes from 25 up to 100 with a simple menu. They don't look all that great though. I've got some others as well which are not overpowered to much.

I'd also like to see more mellee weapons available and used as I find them to be more...I guess honest and responsible than a gun. I was told there's a no gun, no shield sim out there somewhere but I haven't gone looking yet.

Perhaps I should follow up on my idea of a three way war sim and ban anyone with a shield from coming there. I can see it now Goreans, Vampires, and Furries all joined together in a dream of annihilating each other shield free.

Until then I guess I'll juts leave the sim whenever anyone but my friends and I show up. A shame since I enjoy the massive amounts of gear available in this game compared to true
shooters

EDIT:This is what I get for being a bumbling ignorant instead of a prescice debator. My Seburos have some kind of damage system in them called Unreal something or other. Also several aircraft have sensor based fighting abilities with no fear of involving non combatatants with stray weaponsfire. Something like that installed in weapons would be nice but I haven't seen any beyond the Saedaku weapons like the Seburo.

I often viset another web site that is sort of a club for older BMW motorcycles. One of the common sayings there is "If you want a fast motorcycle go buy a fast motorcycle." Meaning, older BMW motorcycles are not designed to go fast like a nippon sport bike. Trying to make one fast like that is a waste of time and money.

OK, saying that, SL really isn't made for combat, anybody can have a Holy Hand Grenade and surround them self with 10m of armor plate and shoot magic bullets out their ass. I don't expect a global change to this. There are online games that cater to combat but SL is a lover not a fighter when is comes to MMORPG.

There are some groups that have combat type sims with sanctioned weapons. If your serious, perhaps you could start a group, rent a sim for a few hours and do combat per your rules and your weapons. You may even be able to find a like minded individual that would let you use their sim for free.

Anyway, I feel your frustration. Good Luck.

I've always considered that the "rules" of Combat Sims were:
- no shooting if you're not here (this bans automatic turrets)
- no crashing/exploiting SL.

And that's it.

Beyond these rules, you're free to abuse the creation tools of SL. It means that "Combat" really is just a technical proficiency show.

Quite so Jesrad. And I'm a little surprised at our hero, in the middle of his rant, admiting to using a Catalyser - that weapon is virtually uncontrolable and can eaaily crash a sim. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt...
Not something I intend doing again either, killing AVs is one thing, killing Rausch AND Blue Team Island within 5 mins is possibly overkill.

Weapons in SL are a bit like Core Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_Wars)

SL isn't really that bad a platform for FPS, unfortunately, it's hard to get organized to the point where it is impossible (or at least hard) to cheat.

No matter where you go there will always be somene that feels they must have the most powerfull kickass weapon or shield out there and enjoy showing them off by turning on the auto slaughter, seeking trackers, massive push modes and the list goes on and on.

Unfortunaly there will allways be instance like this for the simple fact people just dont take the time to read the rules, they see oh a combat, go there and as soon as the rez start fireing on everyone in the sim with their god weapons, not taking the time to talk to people to see whats going on. Some people like to live in damage enabled areas, doesnt mean they like to get hit with massive push scripts or kill scripts all the time.
There might be people in the sim playing small weapons no shields rules or maybe bring whatcha got last one standing is the offical BADASS.

The bad thing is this just doesnt pertain to combat sims, in the last 2 months I have personaly seen 12 attacks in safe sims just like this mostly done by new people to SL which supports my thoughts that people dont take time to read the rules.

Heroine not hero.

As for the Catalyser that was the first, and only, time I've used it without insuring the zone was clear or that I had everyone's permission. The "villains" of our tale though have no problems turning on their l337 shields and sitting in spawn points chortling about how skilled they are as they force one through death after death.

So no Ghandi points for me but lots of grief points for the opposing team.

I don't mind the free fire aspect but when you dont even have to click a button to fight back and you break some rules even someone that normally dislikes shooters follows, well I cannot help but feel aggrieved.

i have sent to the lindens a project of having two "respawn" zones in the combat sims that are nobuild noscript nodammages, this way you could at least benefit of a little safe point when you respawn, no news about this idea however

Basically the rules for combat regions in Second Life are simple.
1) Don't bring down the region/server or lag it to a point of impeding movement.
2) Don't impede movement or travel by using autoguns, mines, nukes, whochi-ma-whats, whatcha-ma-callits or any other weapon that could prevent another residents ability to take part.

Other than that, expect to get shot, attacked, have your attacks blocked, have your blocks attacked and have a good time.

Adam

That's a great idea! Glad you sent that in.

Often times FPS's will have something similar to this suggestion, to prevent such things as spawn camping.

WARNING: Disconnected thoughts may irritate those preferring conscice organised debate. read at your own risk. EDIT: a bit of a tangent at the end as well

If one had to build their own mega toys then I'd agreed with your final statement. However when all it takes is 25 dollars on your credit card and ten minutes on SLexchange to outfit yourself in someone else's creations, then pop over to rausch, wait for the first name to appear on your hud, hit the "murder repatedly and salt fields" button while happily protected inside your shield and orbiting any person or vehicle coming near you it then becomes less of a test of prowess. What it transforms into is a test of who gets bored and leaves, has their computer crashed, or bombs the sim offline.

This is a similiar situation to what happened in the sport of paintball when rapid firing and fully automatic arms were introduced. Fun to own, espeically if you're a lousy shot like me, but not so fun to have whipped out on you unexpectedly. I beleive the full auto ones are no longer allowed in organised play or on most public fields leaving it to the realm of private parties with advanced warning for its use. Anyone still in the sport that would like to inform me as to the current state of affairs?

Private combat sims or areas would be fine. but the upkeep for what is currently a small niche market would require more capital than most folks are willing to spend. Enforcement of local rules would also be a hassle. These are the main reasons why my vampire, gorean, furry war idea will never be implemented.

Also pick up and frag can be fun from time to time. I love to swap notes and discuss toys with folks even as I'm being blasted. In fact I would've happily asked what type of weapons or shields were being used against me in my above tales if I had had a chance to type.

Unfortunately there is no simple solution that I can see beyond trieinng to form a larger set of community standards beyond the TOS. Certain other activities are simply not done with unwilling participants even if they're in the same area so why should combat be different?

Example:I visit transylvania and witness some bloodsucking and other things going on.
Do they have a right to inisist I join in those actions even if I'm juts enjoying the scenery?

I could think of some other examples but I do beleive this is a PG to low R rated forum.

As a newbie I read the manual and saw the section about combat. Ok, there's even a link to a combat zone. I go there and see that I now have a health bar, but there is nobody around. Well, having nobody around is a pretty common occurance in SL, so I wasn't too worried. I proceeded to fly around and examine the scenery. Eventually one other guy came in the zone and proceeded to put me in some cage thing the instant we got in visual range. Well, I guess this is a combat zone. He left afterward though, which was a bit annoying, I had to sit my way out of the cage. So I start expoloring again, this time keeping an eye out for other people. I saw another green dot on my radar, so I dove down into some cover and moments later got sent back home. Apparently some sort of homing insta-kill thing that ignores terrain. Uh, yeah, no wonder the combat zone was deserted. There's really no point if there are no rules and "combat" consists of pressing an "I Win" button. The only skill is in pressing the button before your opponent does, basically a game of reflexes (or who has the better connection).

In most games when this situation occurs you will see players forming gentlemen agreements to keep things more or less sane, but if they exist in SL I've seen no evidence of it. In fact one of the vendors I saw in the zone was touting their Meteor weapon that was a guarenteed one shot kill no matter what the other guy uses (only L$1000 IIRC). Where's the sport in that?

The end result is that if I see that heart appear in my bar, I know not to spend much time in the sim because it's basically a "gank me" zone. It makes me wonder why people bothered to set up shops in there. If I were shopping and then ganked without warning, I don't think I'd bother going back.

as long as super weapons are possible sl can't be used as an fps. super weapons will always be possible.

Again, not a correct statement. A good number of shooters contain mega weapons of one sort or another. Their use is restricted in some form or another even if it is as simple as a gentleperson's agreement.

This does not exist in any of the damage enabled zones I've visited in SL. I'm sure there's one or two out there somewhere, and as stated before there is sensor based combat for some aircraft,but finding them and populating them with willing playmates is difficult.

And While I'd hate to see development stymied by draconian control laws. It may take something like the pre 1.7 Griefer sphere attack to get some standards for combat areas.


Imagine if someone recreated a catalyser with no replication or time limit and the push of a Hand of God or whatever the EC retaliation device is called. I hope that's not a possibility anymore, if it ever was, yet that may be what it takes.

Its funny but I know of so many weapons out there in fact my AR3s are going to have a round like this very soon / But only thing that will save you is to "NOT" be in a damage enabled sim or land. Shields are junk and only good for the normal "PHYSICAL" bullets emited from many guns even my AR3s still have the good old standard push rounds in them.
You can count on it that there is "NO" shields not even your underground system that can protect you from being sent home in a damage enabled sim/ So with that said be aware there is almost always in a time frame of 15 mins some person that will telleport to those sims and just unload anything they have on anyone they want even if your clearly creating or testing a new product that they may even want to purchase in the future thats the funny part lol/ But they just dont care .
I have learned to go there do my thing as fast as I can and leave / I see no use in combat sims as they are nothing more then bombs and everyone just out to get everyone in a mindless way lol..

Cheers and happy killing lol

Shields and these other weapons have ruined the FPS aspect of Second Life, I had a gun fight with no flying and semi autos only, and I've got to say, that was funner then all of this insta kill BS...

All these kid's think they are OMGZ 1337 for pressing a button. If anyone sees me in game IM me, i'd like to have a simple gun fight back in the days of rausch and jessie

Except no flying

Like FPS/Combat systems? Two good ones out there, and the best part they're sensor based, therefore not relying on SL's broken combat/health system.

For personal combat; Frag-Foo Battle Game, since its sensor based you can play anywhere and either rely solely on its internal bullets or set it up for use with standard SL bullets. In fact it's hitpoint based so even better if you're not fighting over 'damage enabled' areas because rather than being TP'd home when 'killed' one is simply frozen for about 15 seconds while an animation is run of one's AV falling over and bleeding out (yes blood included, or white chalk-outline for those squeamish). No god bullets, no shield trite, a decent FPS (with the ability to completely circumvent the current, and in my opinion broken, SL combat system) and at less than the cost of one of those not so magical non-physical 'can kill you despite shield or being underground' AutoKillers.

For vehicle combat; CCC (Callahan Combat Control), another sensor based combat system, only this one is for vehicles (currently ^.^). Hit point based and a freebie for a builder to add to their own creation or purchase from one of the many vehicle crafters whom use said system (from Jon Marlin to Arrekusu Muromachi to Reyo Neutra an Geordie Boffin and many others). Dogfight through the skies (in either mouselook or keyboard controled vehicles), take hitpoints away from your opponent and with each successful hit the damage is progressive, take enough hitpoints away and watch them as their craft augers into the ground in a pillar of trailing smoke (and yes I'm involved with Jillian and CCC and happily admit to a bit of self-promotion ^.^).


Both are tremendously neat systems and I've seen quite a few have quite allot of fun using them. Certainly more so than the standard "whom can hit the 'I win' button the quickest", course now they aren't even bothering with that anymore, they've got bleeding autokill lists. Anyway the above two are my personal favoured systems in SL that allows for some form of combat _and_ enjoyment/real competition. You've got options, just have t'poke about some more. ^.^

So basically every weapon that exists, except maybe the pop gun, or makeshift HP system, prevents someone from being involved in a combat area. heh
Most weapons just about send you to another sim which is a place that person may, or may not, want to go.
From a PG area and being shot into a Mature area. Forcing you to see porn? When you may not want to? Hell I dunno and I'm not going into that. All I know is some people have left the game for that reason. So they find that as an entirly different type of abuse from SL itself.
I personaly don't care. But it's similar to forcing you to a web page that has porn I would think. Seeing how this is, at its core, 3D web browsing.

Anyway, the only problem I have with any of it is that SL isn't a platform to support combat in the first place, but then teases you into thinking it does. Along with a lot of other things.
Because it gives us the ablitily but no simulation of real life rules. Other than a ban.
And to limit all weapons means limiting the scripting language to all people. Limiting LSL even more than it already is? No thanks.

But in real life, rules are everything. We don't find a guy with a real 9mm in the middle of a paint ball war. At least lets hope not?
The reason being that there is a serious penalty that happens directly if they did so. Unlike an abuse penalty. Of course there is jail time to compare banning to but that isn't the point.

The point is even if it were possible to provide something like that, most new people would not understand it when they first get to SL.
Quite often a new person comes to play SL and thinks "Oh nice game. Where's the guns I wanna kill things"
They already don't realise they can eventually be banned for what they thought was ok to do. Which is bad enough for both that player and the others who had to deal with it.
Rarly does anyone read rules to what they see as a game.

What I would like to see is an ability to overide constants in scripts certain designated land you can own. Such as letting the owner set a "max damage allowed" so that even if a script says 100%, it only does 5% or whatever they set it to.
Or a max velocity allowed on objects. Or max anything allowed for that matter.

And then only have that option allowed for owners in a particular area. So we all know THIS area is where the constants in scripts can be limited by land owners.
That way for the majority of us we won't suddenly have our ship or speed boost "nerfed" when trying have a little fun flying.

We can set rules as it is now. But without the power to really enforce them directly, then its pointless.

Just my two lindens. But seems like common sense to me. Thats the core of what makes a game. Limits.
Allow those who want a game enviorment to have one in a designated area with their own set of limits that effect all scripts within their land.
Why not?

Actually the two afore mentioned systems (Frag Foo and CCC both using Hitpoint systems for Av's and vehicles respectively) could and have been utilized in damaged enabled areas and could and have been used in mature areas, or PG areas, from the city sims to the vehicle sims, they can be used in any area. And are hardly makeshift.

Not sure where you were going with that disjointed tangent as to mature areas an porn though, so I guess whatever you're on about your milage may vary. O.o