Texture Resellling ONCE again WHY NO PROTECTION?

Reasonable man expectations. A man might be blind and not see the EULA card in his software box, too, but that doesn't give blind people permission to resell software. As long as steps were taken that would ensure a reasonably average individual would be able to view the EULA, it's kosher.

Good thing I'm not in the texture business then?

Did grab a few for personal use.

I hardly ever see someone on busy, and i know a lot of very busy people. It is not the normal state of a avatar, it is a setting you purposly choose.

This is correct for the US. Nowadays so called 'shrinkwrap contracts' are seen as legally binding contracts in most states in the us.
In most european countries, not being able to see a EULA/binding contract before purchase makes it generally unenforcable though.

How this translates to SL is a bit vague, as a I don't think a european can be tried for these things in a US court. (?) Next to that, the electronic equivalent ('clickwrap') hasn't been in any legal trials in europe, so there is no clear legal precedence.

Best is to be sure, and present the contract (or a clear option to look at it) BEFORE any purchases are done.

I think it would probably be the same as if a european bought software online from an American store.

However that's handled.

I am sorry for getting personal.

Its ugly and childish and in hindsight regret the things I said.

And no you wouldnt get a take down. Has to be from the actual creator.

Thats an open source texture as you pointed out.

Its all over SL actually.

I am removing my earlier post and cancelling the email notfication I have far better things to do that a mud slinging match.

Its alright, we both were. But sometimes we just have to let it out, otherwise we bottle thigns up and explode. At least on the forums, one can do that without truly hurting someone else. (I also rant on my blog)

it sis impossible to protect textures. that is why.

Texture makers have a horrible problem in this game of having to trust us to honor their desires, so that builders can use the textures on the things they make.

Lilybeth had an idea - where you put permissions on textures allowing them to be resold once they are on a prim, but not as is. If that is possible to code, I wish they would do so.

I ALWAYS get a notecard in Lilybeth's shop the minute I come in; I know because on my computer there is terrible lag while I wait for that notecard to come up.

It is terribly frustrating for a texture maker to discover her own textures repackaged and sold elsewhere, time and time again.

Unlike with freebies, the texture maker has no choice but to mark the textures copy and transfer. You have to make them copy or they are useless except for one prim; and you have to make them transfer if builders will be wanting to purchase them. Textures that aren't transferable are totally useless to me and other content creators.

coco

if repackaging is the only issue, sell textures "no transfer". if somebody wants to buy a license whereby they could sell products using your texture, arrange a contract with them to do so and sell them the texture bundle at a premium. textures just aren't that important to be worth protecting.

and if they were protected, any one with a protocol sniffer would get them anyway.

I thought of that, too, as an option. Have the contract, etc. But ideally you would not have to actually be on at the same time to purchase the textures - ideally there would always be two boxes of textures; one for people who don't care to have transfer, and one for builders who do. Builders would then get on a list entitling them to access to those vendors. If that is even possible to code.

(Don't know what you mean by protocol sniffer.)

coco

LillyBeth, I really sympathize with your situation. I must admit, when I first came to your wonderful store early on, I was amazed you had all your textures as full perm. As a RL game content creator, I fully understood your massive efforts as I looked around and realized you had done all these by hand and every time I bought a texture pack I set the no trans perm back on while they rest in inv for my own sake so I wouldn't accidently share them with the public in what I build. And no--I don't sell textures, not even my own. You do that better than I anyway.
I have used your textures almost exclusively now in my builds since december '05.

Having said that, and after reading most the forum here, I went back to read my TRU texture tos and realized I had made an unintended breach by sharing my library with an emplyee through a group-set texture organizer seperate from the perm-lock reset (above). This has been fixed, all my organizers are now accesable to only me. He has since ended his employment with me and we deleted his TRU directory in it's entirety (which, over his shoulder, I purged from his trash myself--so I know it's really gone). I have never used UUIDs for any texture accept the trasparent one on the wiki.
There is no way these were leaked any further than this, thank god.

But still...it's my fault, my carelessness.

Please accept my sincere, public apologies and 15,400L (went through my transaction history to match the contents of the organizer in question) that would have been yours already had I carefully adhered to the TRU tos as so very clearly written and displayed.

I HAVE to say here and now. I havent made all of them lol The stuff I have made states ' Hand Drafted' I mearly modify stuff blend photos and actually a lot are bought from other players who make them, some are from current artists who are artists at TRU others ex texture stores who left the game...mixed bag.

Hence I replied to Jonas about the open source texture he found..I wouldnt have the right to issue take down demands on something unless it was created from scratch by my own hand.

I have ownership rights on a lot as I paid for them with full commercial resell rights and as such can act on behalf of the artist who sold them me as i bought the licence ( albeit a notecard in most cases )

My anger isnt really about one thing over another....just the shear frustration of being told weekly some one else is selling not just mine but usualy a group of textures from all various stores...I then trudge down there with my Take Down Order that I simply edit to change the name and location..then I IM all the other creators and stores and alert them to finding their stuff send a LM etc....usualy BBT other creators have reached the location the seller has moved and with an apology ( sometimes a very angry Who The F*** do yo u think you are you B*** ! show me your copy right !! ' - again education is poor on this side of things ) and a ban ( but still removes them )

My personal ban list is fast reaching the 50 level.

Ive been approached by serial texture theifs and asked ' If you let us back into the store i'll tell you were a heap of your textures are being sold'

( bribes?)


I cant stop the software theifs they will do what they want but as I say 95% of the time most ppl who do this genuinly dont know they cant hand them out freely or pass them around to friends...or bundle them up and sell them and whilst the selling has always been an issue Yard sales make it 100 times worse.

Drifte Monde who has the oldest store in SL has been fighting this fight longer than me, way back before it became the 'norm' to make textures, texture stores simply found them off the net...the skill back then wasnt about how good you were at creating but rather who good you were at sourcing and your sources were your secret. You told no-one. The argument back then was ' Go and find your own! I found them, took the time out to search the net and paid to upload them...so go find your own and pay for your own uploads!' Fair comment I suppose ( lot of hypocracy in texture selling which I dont want to go into here but trust me Ive seen it and done some myself in the early days )
Then when I noticed all we were doing is selling the same stuff we all found off the net I realised if I was to succeed i HAD to offer something only I could...unique to me so i started messing in PS and manipulating stuff that developed into making from scratch my own...I work with 3000 x 3000 size photos now...and as I look at new texture stores gone are the ' nicked off the net' types but ppl are creating their own now and I like to feel I played a part in that somehow

It apears I have taken over her role now as cheif texture sherif lol and I dont mind but it is stressful and exhausting not to mention demotivating...why bother?

I have poured a lot of money in the store in one shape or another...aprox 50 hours a week and the amount of mis understanding despite my OTT Signs in the store is huge and growing all the time.

Actually on a off topic subject, if the rate of the L$ continues to fall being that its now at 3.07 per at lindex theres another reason to give up. I notice LL dont adjust their land teirs to accomadate the loss on value of the L$ and rather than step in and do something ( as I believe only they can control this situation ) rather than just keep saying " oh theres nothing to worry about " BS

Its at an all time record low and continuing to drop...whats there NOT to worry about?


If ppl can cover their land teirs they sell up or let go of land...ppl dont want to buy land also LL loose money....content creators give up creating...as no matter how much you enjoy a hobby most ppl do it to financialy cover their fees in SL and/or gain some extra income.

ALl it would take is for all content creators to increase their fees to adjust to the lowering value of the L$. The average buyer gets more L$ for his $ so its only fair those selling their work/services should increase to balance it out...then more money is being spent in SL and that sorts out the lack of demand...things are getting cheaper and buyers are getting more L$ for their buck...no wonder its a mess.

But it takes a collective effort and too many ppl dont see beyond their own needs or life.

They think theyre gaining by undercutting their competition...in the long run their driving the value of the L$ down and evetually it will be next to worthless.

LL should cap it when it reaches a certain level...I dont know if thats a simple thing to do as im no economist but it seems the obvious thing to me.

It would stop the panic sellers selling LOW to get a quick sale driving others to undercut them and so on it goes.

It should be caped at 3.00 Period.

Anyway thats just a side note really.

No i dont 'make' them all as Ive always said ' That would be a life times work '
The stuff I personaly made always has Hand Drafted or Hand Made all the stuff on the huge pillars are mine if your curious.



Oh and dont worry about the organisor thing...I accept ppl share what I dont accept is ppl stood in my store saying ' you buy that and ill buy this and we'll swap' that pisses me off and YES i have and do ban if I hear that..dont care if i loose custmers...they arent customers anyway prolly loose me more L$ than gain me.

Lillybeth, any of the textures I upload are yours for the asking. (I give them to other creators and freinds anyway). While with my vcomputer reformat I lsot my previous list, I can assure each one came from a fresource or copyright allowed usage. I am keeping track of any I upload in the future.


Any I myself create may or may not be available..working on a few off and on. Like gestures, I tend to hand out my textures (mine being the ones I upload) with a few exceptions. My rl girlfriend, a partner in the shop, sells texture packs as well.

I often enjoy playing devils advocate and know I can be offensive at times, and i do feel sympathy for your medical condition. I just don't take issues like that into consideration when it comes to business.

This is where I have a problem with your logic.


Okay, this 3rd party person DOES NOT have the responsiblity to ask your permission or nor does she need your authorization for ANYTHING. She WILL NOT get in trouble as she did not violat any ToS. A LINDEN AND A LINDEN ONLY can ask her not to use those textures and/or remove them from her inventory. I know that getting pi**ed over 350 L$ is worth more than a possible customer in the future. I wouldn't EVER shop with you if were rude to me like this (I am assuming you were ruse by the way you implement you said "NO!" with caps and exclamatory.)

Without reading this whole thread (short on time), this is one of the things I'd like to address AS SOON AS we get more than 15 groups so I can start the Builder's Union. (Feel free to start it if you want.)

The things I'd like the union to do would be to act as a block to get what we builders need. This includes:

1. Fixing long standing building bugs

2. Fixing the texture problem so that texture sellers can sell to builders without fear that their goods will end up packaged and sold for cheap by others.

coco

When you develop a sure fire method of reliably proving which member made the texture first, and that the member really does in fact own the copyright to that texture, then publish the names. Until then, read up on the libel laws.

BOOYAH!!!!!!!

here is the way i would write my EULA

make a box, put the items in box
add a notecard called End User License Agreement


wich state:
"by pulling out the objects from the box you accept all the terms of the license without conditionsor reserves
, if you happend to refuse the said license, you are free to return the said box UNALTERED to the creator for a refund."

<EULA goes here>

technically pulling out any item from the box would be like clicking accept in a form


at least legally you would be covered

Ohh Lilly please dont leave SL!! you have the best textures in SL! i think where the shame here is one, ignorence of newer players, in not knowing just because your textures are copyable, should not be resold. Two, its a question of ethics in older players that know better. I do share a texture or two from time to time, but to sell someone elses work is just WRONG!
Texture creators here have a rough go, the textures have to be copyable and transferable to insure the consumer can use them and will buy them. It is a shame that some are so money hungry, that they cheat and use someone elses hard work to make a few bucks. I recommend that anyone seeing this happening report abuse for all our texture creators, to help fight this horrid situation.
Have wondered often if LL could not add another choice to the edit for sales purposes, as ok to transfer, but not resale ?? Could be the answer..good luck Lilly, were all behind you and other creators on this one...

What is wrong with having one of the procedures I've heard suggestions of whereby a texture would have permissions to go on a prim, but not to be resold by itself?

Is there something impossible about that?

That would go a long way toward solving this problem, without having to cut off your hands or rip out your tongue.

coco

one word: llGetTextureKey()

This is an excellent idea!

Is this up yet so I can vote for it? This is even more important than separating the resell/give away permissions, which is very important also.

As far as people just taking advantage of the perms situation due to current limitations. Well there is a larger issue there rather than just the concern
of whether you can be held liable.
And that is whether you want to consider yourself an ethical person.

I have learned a great deal about copyrights and EAULA' since I have joined
SL. After reading about the issues here on the forums I personally investigated it.

I consider myself to have an aptitude for texture art from my study of 3D
modeling.

I had not sold any textures from that time however I had used some from the net that I had altered and "improved" from my view. After reading the agreements more carefully I realized that in some cases I was breaking the agreement just by altering it and using it in my own work.
Clearly all agreements are not that binding. However even many of the resources I once considered free are only free if you do not use them in any form
of commercial endeavor. Others are ok if you do not resell as textures.

Thus I decided since I had the ability to do so I would create my own original
textures. I found some free PS brushes on the net and experimented a bit.
Then I read the agreement on the brushes, which ended up being just like most of the other texture agreements in that they were free as long as they were not used in a commercial endeavor.
So I got rid of those and found out how to make my own brushes, which in and of itself is not too difficult. However it takes as much artistic skill to
make a high quality brush as it does to make HQ art. Which is fine.
It is just good to know what the rules are. The best idea is to follow the agreements of the original creator.

Just because you do not know someone does not make it ok to take advantage of them. Imagine that they are already your friend, for they could
be, plus they were nice enough to share their talents with you even in its
limited form.

In an earlier post someone mentioned that part of a cure although unlikely
would be if SL were stripped of anonymity. Which is an interesting idea.
This is something that has occurred to me.
If everyone were suddenly required to use their real names in SL, how many of us would still be here? I know I would be.

And I think it is not too hard to guess which ones would and which ones would
not.
Clearly some people have legitimate concerns about indentification in relation
to them being more vulnerable to the bad elements of society. And those are valid.

However others find value in connecting their reputations to their real names.
Usually these are very ethical people, or at least people willing to stand up and say "so sue me" and defend themselves. lol.

Sorry if this next idea is a little off topic.

What if certain zones of SL
remained anon while others were only open to those who used thier verifiably
real names. This would not only achieve the ability to build their actual
reputations throught quality content and service, but it would naturally weed
out those who wish to take advantage of the current limitations of the
platform.
Because the liklihood of people being held responsible for their actions would
be increased.

What is this?
Does this already exist as an option?
Or is this a suggestion?

There's a lot of wisdom in that. In the end, I stopped fretting over the woman that stole my textures because the copies of my stuff she made are so bad (and more expensive) that I realised they weren't really a threat.

And a the end of the day, I can make new ones, whereas all she'll ever do with her attitude is trail behind picking up my leftovers.