Third Class Citizens

i didnt know we could use one card but now im going to try thank you

I can understand why the Lindens need to know about our computers....but that doesn't mean all of SL needs to know!

And believe it or not...this IS going to create more friction in game, as if we don't have enough already.

It's no different than a kid in school having to pay for his lunch with a free lunch card...everyone sees it and mocks the kid for it. Eventually this kid grows up and commits suicide....the 'unverified' just leave the game!

I can't believe the childishness of some of you here in the forums and being almost 50 years old I have no need for it. The things that were so rudely posted here on this thread are horrible....(here are just a few of many):

~*hands out yellow armbands and starts tattooing the unverified*
~Do I get to make 3rd class avatars walk 10 paces behind me too??
~No hon... you collar them and drag them around instead...

Ah and then there is my favorite, to think my business parter and myself, both 3rd class SL residents, rent almost 3/4 of a sim from this one....

~I don't think that third class citizens should even be allowed to post in the forums. Also, I think they should not be allowed to suck the resources that their 2nd and 1st class betters allow them to share. So, they should have a max draw distance of 5m, unable to rez prims. Ooo..and they should be made to wear a flag sticking out of their head with a big '3', or 'U' displayed. I think that these are reasonable guidelines and constraints for the underclass.

Now, you do the math....

SeXXXY, it's satire, it's being sarcastic

*passes you a stiff drink*

"Service Guarantee's Citizenship!"

One of my favorite lines from the move "Starship Troopers".

after that one I need 'stiff' alright...but not in a glass *wink*

Don't scare me again like that...not good for this old heart!

Then you'd love the book.

heh judging from the reply, your heart seems to be in pretty good shape

<nods> I gotta read that again!

I always was a "Moon is a harsh mistress and Stranger in a strange land" fan myself.

But... people complained when they had to give credit card info on sign-up, people complained their sex partners might be underage and leave them open to lawsuits, people complained there was no accountability... what the heck - is there any other way to have accountability, limit avatars in mature areas to "known" accounts, yet open SL to people who don't have credit cards (who may be visiting to see an artshow, or try the world out)?

Ah, Heinlein. Timeless.

No, that is not true in the least. It was announced in this thread by Robin Linden entitled "Anti-Griefing Features and Tools" /139/cc/115855/1.html

The very first tool listed is:

1. There will be an icon on each Residen'ts profile which will show 3 states. The first state will equal Anonymous. This person has chosen not to give us any identifying information beyond the minimum required to create an account. The second state will indicate that we have some identifying information, but that it has not been verified. The third state will indicate that we have identifying information, and have verified it through a successful transaction.

A second phase of this effort will be the addition of LSL calls allowing you to access this information for your use so that a landowner, for example, could prohibit access to their parcel/estate based on level of identifying information available. Similarly, a merchant could make a decision about selling.


This is specifically intended as an "anti-griefing" measure.

Lilith, Robin's clearly stating that the "V" flag is to help residents make access decisions and for merchants to decide who can buy their products - like I said.

If it's used as a resident tool to try to pre-empt griefers I'm afraid it's also going to ban a lot of decent unverified people from PG content. Like I've said about 3 times now, out of 6 bans I added to my community last night 4 were residents born before Dec 2005 and one of the new people was underage. I'm *much* more concerned about the underage resident than I am the oldbies who should have known better.

The long-term solution to griefing is not to just keep banning and playing whack-a-mole while they make endless free alts. The solution is to find out where that unique computer is and stop it from logging in to begin with. That's why the computer ID is the griefer tool, not the verification flag.

I find the folks that say griefing has increase on their land a little off to be honest. I gotta question just how the enviroment they created is and if it creates some hostility. I for one own a Club with my in world partner and the enviroment we made doesnt entice griefers. As in fact we have a no weapons and a no sheild policy. My theory is people see a sheild on you they are going to fire because most likely want to see how good it works etc.

We ask them once to stop. If they do not comply if it is a weapon they are ejected from the land and banned and reported especially if anyone actually got hit. The same goes for sheilds if they start pushing people. Only problems i've had with griefing there ever was b4 we opened. We rarely if ever have problems or had problems. We still dont in the last month. The only thing i've run into is some rather dense people but not griefers.

Lina, I wish we had good data on this but it seems the Lindens' policy is to deny there's a problem while they rush to implement features to stop the bleeding.

My own personal experience: As a manager of an adult community, I recall having filed, at most, one or so ARs per week prior to 6/6. Since then I am filing at least 10 per week and some weeks more. Many of the ARs are for underage residents. The increase in volume is probably not out of proportion to the increase in traffic, I can't say without good data -- but I do know that it is very marked. We desperately need some solutions to try to make our place safe and fun for members rather than a griefer-fest.

I think there are some types of content that naturally attract bad behavior. Off the top of my head, those are (a) Newbie centers, because griefer newbies don't know how to find other spots; (b) Furry sims, because it's easy to dislike something that's different from you; (c) Adult communities, because SOME people seem to think that "sex = evil" and it's their god-given duty to grief people who aren't as inhibited as they are.

Note that all 3 of these categories also have something else in common: they are popular, meaning clusters of green dots, which seem to be griefer magnets.

I was wondering if Gorean sims get griefers, but I don't know that they have quite the traffic as the above named areas... and I'm sure the griefers are reluctant to engage on damage-enabled land

My main concern is when someone targets a specific inidividual, be it a an-ex partner, an angry neighbour, or well, for what ever reason. These are not kids that are looking for a bit of imature fun, but less than stable adults who are pissed with someone and can't let go. This is something you're probably not going to get in a club as much, but in residential type areas, or any area where that particular av calls 'home'. This kind of grief accounts for the bulk of all incidents in my sims (I would say >95%), and when banned, they usually come back with their alt for some more. I haven't yet seen an increase in incidents in my sims since open registration, in fact it's been very quiet. I don't actually expect an increase in the incidents of griefing, I just think it will get more messy when it does happen next, due to the new disposable alts now available. Hopefully this new hashed ID will help combat with those instances, but even then, it's a reactive measure.

In effect, these changes make Second Life a gated community. Some people will enjoy the perks inside the gate; others will stand outside and stare over the gate - and likely not consider the experience very pleasent. As intended by LL, or so Robin claims.

I, like many others, joined Second Life because of my interest in LL's promise of a "resident-run virtual world". I expected to find the makings of a community here. Instead I've found a resident hierarchy and a company that seems to believe that community and social issues can be solved with looney technical fixes, skirt-the-law policies and practices, artificial stratification of the social and economic process, and fist-in-a-soft-glove homilies.

I will verify to no one in Second Life. I may have to do that in the real world, but I will not do it in a virtual, recreational world. I do not mind having to do it to gain access to a virtual world, but once access has been gained... uh-uh. You don't get to know anything about my real life choices in any circumstance, and I don't have to suffer any consequences or limitations because you don't.

The differences between Second Life and real life are being progressively eliminated. I have to ask: Why trade the real rat-race for a virtual one? To explore? As someone pointed out in another thread, even the SL landscape is a sprawling eye-bleed. To chat... by text? To become a "success"? I already am, thank you. Unless you "opt-in" to LL's virtual free market system with an enormous amount of time and investment, or unless you're willing to spend more real money than in most other worlds, what is there to do here that couldn't be done in another venue?

Of course this latest action will augment a tiered social and economic system. That's what Second Life has been all about since its beginning - tier and stratification. There may have been a time - a couple of years ago - when residents tried to overlook tier and stratification, and direct Linden interaction created an impression of benevolence, and drama was of the small-town "he said, she said" variety. But Second Life has always had a plot and an overarching background story-line - and it's not resident-created, either. And that plot and line is as linear and predictable as any other world on the market.

On edit: I was a little too sharp and villifying in my original post - I removed the invective and reposted before I saw Cyndi's response below. She quoted from the original.

My experience was that on average, those with a lot of neg ratings deserved them.

The ratings cost cash, so your average griefer is not going to spend a ton of cash neg-rating everyone. Also, if a griefer neg-rated you back after you neg-rated them, then all the 100 people he griefed would have a single neg-rate, whereas he would have a -100 neg-rate.

When we had the rating system I cant remember ever running into anyone with a high negative rating that did not deserve it, and only once or twice did I run into someone who had an artificially inflated pos-rate. With the absence of stipend gaming, there would be no reason t inflate your pos-rating.

I also suggested making a small change in that people who are banned or discipline would also have neg-rates attached as part of that process. This would mean that the idiot that repeatedly does crap over an over again or the forum curmudgeon that constantly attacks would have enormous neg-ratings. Over a short period of time, it would be possible to tell who the idiots are and who the nice folks are and someone who was -1000 could be banned.

It wouldn't be perfect, but at least it penalises people for actually *doing* something wrong as opposed to grouping everyone without a credit card into some kind of second class "ghetto" citizenship.

My big beef with this new class system is that I have an alt that is a perfectly wonderful person and a net contributor to SL that for various reasons will never be "verified." So she will be gradually marginalised (as per Robins announcement) over time and become more and more associated with griefers for absolutely no other reason than LL couldn't think of anything better.

Thank you for posting this Cindy.

Although its been mentioned numerous times on these forums, no one seems to be listening because they refuse to see the bigger picture or beyond their own self interests.

Remember when everyone was screaming about how minors would now be able to roam freely through the xxx content on the Main Grid?

Well LL responds and does something about it yet, now everyone screams when they DO something about it.

Simply put, this change simply goes hand in hand with the changes they made to the teen grid. The only difference being that with the Teen Grid LL is assuming direct responsibility by asking for verification of age prior to entering the grid to eliminate/minize the potential for liability incurred by adults mixing with minors.

With this verified/unverified status change in the Main Grid, LL will be transfering that liability to the respective content providers.

Why won't they just use the CC system used on the Teen Grid you ask? Simply because it impedes with LL's grand vision for SL going into the future.

With all of the changes being made of late, I can see how this can be overlooked by some of our residents. It would be nice if LL would make it a sticky for all to see.

Also i find it hard to think that some content dev would sell their products based on this information or limit access to land based on this. This theory by LL actually makes no sense in the broad range of things if you put it on one little area sure ok but not everyone that is not giving payment info is a griefer. The blog robin posted for announcements yesterday actually is a good reasoning for opening it up. But now they are closing it more tightfisted then it was b4 they opened it up really.

Frankly i think this was really an uneccessary update. As i have said many times griefers are going to be griefers if they want to grief SL they are going to get in some way and do it regardless of open signups or not. Simply put i think this update was uneccessary and just really demeans people that dont have payment info on hand or cant really get payment info but would still like to play without being persecuted by some hysteria.

No, what I said was not wrong -- you have a choice to opt-in or opt-out. LL makes the rules. If you and I don't like them (and I am among the first to complain when I don't), we have the option to leave. We do not have the option of owning the grid unless you're richer than I think.


You make some good points about LL's way of causing their own problems and then taking half-measures to solve them, but even so I have to say that I have found plenty of good things in the SL community to enjoy. It's still a fascinating, exhilarating, challenging world for me and I'll stick with it until it ceases to be such.

I hope you do, too.

SL has no future without a change of direction and quite possibly a change of leadership. Right now they're clutching at straws to get numbers up for reasons unknown, at the expense of long term residents, paying members, and the wellbeing of the community.

Lewis

I still say nobody would complain if you gave each status a pretty pink icon and let paying members have


GIANT COLORFUL TEXT

Despite the pessimistic point of view that many of our residents seem to gravitate toward, SL is doing just fine.

As recent as one year ago, the max average for online residents was 2,500 to 3,000. Today it is 7,000 to 7,500 and climbing.

That's a significant increase and, indeed, a sign of progress.

I understand LL's direction does not agree with yours Lewis. LL can not, and simply will not, be able to satisfy everyone. I think we can all agree that this is something LL understands.

But it is clearly evident that their decisions are agreeing with many.

If someone's willing to discriminate based solely on the providing of credit card info or not...

... then you probably don't want to be there, ANYWAY. Life's too short for jerks.

Well, I'm confused. My alt, who is on a basic account and never paid for L$, is listed as resident, payment information used.

oh, and btw...wouldn't it be easier just to have:
resident, unverified
resident, verified (any kind of verification: payment on cc, payment information given, email confirmation,etc?)

If I remember correctly, on Paypal. verification is accomplished by getting the credit card info, AND charging $.12 or something with the user required to confirm it was received. A pain, but easier than having a $25 charge to buy lindens, if you really don't want them for some reason.