Third Class Citizens

I've been here very nearly a year now, and I have been thinking about the changes I have seen ISL in that time. I signed up during the second anniversary deal, and I was unhappy about giving them credit card information at all, since I planned to spend no money at all in this game. I fled the chaos of the welcome area instantly and I wandered the grid, which had a few parcels banned to me, although I had no idea why are the time, but mostly was open to me. I found people friendly and willing to talk to me. I found open land not barred to me and not crowded with people where I could work on the simple clothes I made myself on orientation island. I was so proud of them then, but trust me, I am no clothing designer.

It took about three days to go from "I am not spending a dime here." to yearly premiuming for my first land. I've now held up to a half sim of tier with others and we are considering getting a full sim or private island ATM. So from LL's point of view, I am a successful conversion to paying customer, I would think.

So what changed today? Classifying residents into first class ("Payment Info Used", second class ("Payment Info on File", or third class ("No Payment Info on File" citizens of SL and the promise that LL and residents will be able to ban people from land strictly based on class.

Before people think this is heading into a rant against anti-griefing features, I have personally seen ten times more griefing in the last month than I have in the rest of my time ISL. Something does have to be done. Classifying people as "potential griefer" based on nothing related to their actions is not the solution, and it doesn't help me personally at all, since all of the griefing against me has been on land I do not own.

I cannot see stores and other public venues banning potential customers. If people want to ban others from their private land, they will do it now by banning all but the group or whitelisting only a few people. Putting this forth as a solution to griefing does not solve the problem and creates a climate hostile to people who have not (or have not YET) decided to invest money ISL.

I've been replaying my first few days here in my mind - trying to imagine a grid where no one would talk to me and half the grid was banned to me because I was a third class citizen. The answer is pretty simple, really - I wouldn't be here. Neither would the other people I have personally brought into SL, some of whom are premium members and some of whom are second or third class citizens now.

Lass. No one here has said they will ignore new people or people who don't pay per month. I'M not going to!

Good lord, can people please wait until we have sinned to throw the stones? (not you specifically, Morgana)

Please don't jump on the horror bandwagon yet. It's just not as evil a plot as it seems to some.

Actually people have spoken with quite a bit of predjudice on these forums against free account holders even before non verified accounts were allowed.

The original Poster is right this will make for 3 classes of citizens. But it will be the non verified who will take the brunt of it. They will be assumed guilty before proven innocent.

It goes right to the whole thing. If Age verification is so important - than it never should have been removed.

LL chose to remove it they should live with that decision or reverse it.

I personally think LL should not allow any new non verified accounts. Those who got them should be gradfathered in, and we can go on with Second Life.

Well said.

This is the same point I tried making about my concerns in other threads. I would hate to see future residents checking out SL for a period before investing in it be so turned off because this system was used to exclude them when they have done nothing wrong.

The assumption and stereotype that is being tossed about SL and the forums recently is that all new accounts are griefers until they prove otherwise. I find this approach to be jaded and cynical (not to mention intolerant) even by my own jaded and cynical standards.

I also do not see many major businesses using the LSL tools LL says they will give us to ban whole groups of residents from their sims or business transactions. That would be shooting yourself in the foot economically. I know I absolutely will not be doing this at any of my sims or with any of my businesses.

The idea is to get people into SL and have them see how great it is. In a short time hopefully they will swcide its worth staying for and they will invest, upgrade to premium and become landholders, content providers, etc. But...if they come in and find themselves excluded for no fault other than their account age or status...the chances they will stay are slim.

I think that would be sad indeed. Its the nicest people that will be most offended and hurt by this and the most likely to leave. The griefers and stealth teens are too stubourn to be turned away by such things.

If it is the only mechanism available to use as landowners and guardians to stem the flow of griefer/abuse accounts, then expect it to come to pass. I fully expect it will be used in most of the private island sims. Why wouldn't we use it? Is the hassle of having to raise and maintain a police force worth the gains?

I still believe account verification is a far better solution than anything proposed so far; it is the one ounce of prevention that is worth more than the ton of attempted cure.

Its a simple fact of life SL or RL with this added feature people will be put in classes and I can say with 100% asurance people will treat the "3rd class residents" in a lesser manner. ITs not something that might happen, its something thats going to happen.

If you try to say its not going to happen and that RL actions don't reflect into SL, Im going to ask what world your living in and have you been outside of your house any time in your life?

Personally, I don't plan to exclude anyone from my land until it is proven to me to be my only recourse to prevent griefing.

I feel that everyone deserves a chance. But don't be so quick to think SL will shink to 1/100th the size for people who do not have any credit info on record. Shop owners don't care whether you have one in file or not. They only want you to purchase what they make. Also, Club owners won't be so frivilous in outright banning unverified accounts as these residents make up a majority of their business.

The hard fact is that someone who is intent on griefing will grief and when they are caught and banned they simply resign up a new account (or already have several already signed up and ready to use at a moment's notice).

Residents need to have SOME safeguard against these types of griefers and one plausable salution is giving residents the opportunity to ban people with no credit info on file from their lands, limiting the chance they have at becoming the continuing target for griefing.

I'm sure some residents will bad people who have no credit info on file just because they can. These people generally aren't the type people you'd want to know or deal with anyhow.

The system may not be perfect, but it's SOMETHING to help residents curb the repeated griefing that happens to them by those would simply grief, relog to another alt and grief some more and repeat this.

To me, it's something though it may not be the best. And with the lack of ability to otherwise protect themselves (other than cutting themselves off from the world) this salution is ok 'til something better comes along.

*huggles*
Sav

I don't need to wait. I've heard the comments ISL already: "Watch out - that one has a new surname." and "You're new. Are you a griefer?". I don't entirely blame people. As I said, I've seen an enormous upswing in griefing.

It isn't an evil plot at all. LL just dropped credit card verification without thinking through the consequences. Now they need to find a solution to griefing (because I don't believe they are going back to verification), and they are tossing stuff out in the hopes something works.

Foolish, many here in these forums have already stated explicitly that they will indeed use these tools to ban people and refuse business to people of one type of status or another. We are not just assuming. They have stated it rather clearly.

I hope it doesn't get as bad as I think it will. I really do. But, I am also an old lady who is rather jaded and cynical and I fear it will be pretty ugly.

I hope you are right and I am wrong. As a member of several groups IRL that suffer stereotyping and prejudging constantly, I am not so optimistic.

<blinks>

Okay. I stand corrected. Seems some people DID day that.



Sad how that's going, but let me point out something:

The forums are run by a very vocal minority that tend to rant madly. Truth is, most people inside SL proper just don't give a damn about what people think here.

Please feel free to use this image if you enjoy having visitors.



Lewis

<grins> Soooo. Want to tell me what I'm supposed to hate you for then?

Kidding. I know it's a sad joke, but most prejudces seem like a joke to me. Sadly, the results are never so funny. I hope things go well for you.

I don't have time to read all this carefully right now, but I do want to say one thing.

Here's the thing: Anyone can quickly and easily buy his way to first-class status.

By spending a pittance on buying some Lindens. How few Lindens can one buy, anyway? Maybe by spending $3.29, or maybe by spending a quarter for all I know.

So this is actually a VERY clever plan. People who are bothered by the status thing will spend less than they would for a premium account to become first-class.

People giving people a hard time for not being first-class (banning them from their lands, etc.) will actually hasten this process.

Pretty soon we may well have NO residents who aren't "first class", pretty much the same as we once had no residents who didn't have identifying information on file.

AND - this way, people will HAVE to purchase something first, which will give them the taste for the ease and convenience of purchasing Lindens, and later, the ease and convenience of purchasing premiums and land. That was not the case with cc verification.

In any case, I don't think asking someone to spend $3.29 to verify themselves is asking too much. And with the new plan, you don't even have to do that - you CAN be completely anonymous if you like.

I think all this may have been LL's plan and thinking all along. I often get the feeling that they post something that makes us all go nuts - then retract the worst part of it (reinstating teen grid verification) so the rest looks better. And also, most importantly, then reveal the parts of the plan which actually make the original announcement make sense.

Course I'm probably wrong, and it's the plan may not have been worked out all that well to begin with, but I do get that feeling a lot.

If they really are tinkering with it as they go along, to deal with what they have learned from listening to our various objections, then so much the more credit to them!

coco

Well... nice to see that I'm now a second class resident...

I've got a verified account, but because I've never bought money off Lindex, I'm going to have my profile branded with something that says "FREELOADER" to people who check it...



Thanks a lot LL...

I agree completely that the root of the problem is that a griefer can be back in 10 minutes with a brand new name. My problem is, despite owning land in a bunch of different sims, I have only been griefed on land I don't own. This doesn't help me at all. The current tools for banning people in private places are perfectly fine. Most public places will not use the new classifications because they want people to buy their product or to be open to everyone.

Can I have a list of what major stores/clubs have stated they'll ban unverifieds?

There you go!

Minimum credit to account $25... then you have to buy the L$... then you have to either leave the remaining money in your account credit, or pay a fee to get it back...

Not quite so quick, certainly not that easy anymore, and not as cheap as you believe...

im wondering if ill be a third class citizen now. i dont have a credit card so i used my ohoine number to verify, my husband has an account too and uses his credit card which is why i didnt use it. but i have spent real money buying linden with his card thorugh his account and i contribute and support alot of buisness as i shop like a fiend, i dont want to be ostriszed becasue i dont have a credit card thats rediculous. and im certainly not some teenager i just have crap credit Im 24 now and i might be able to get one soon but i dont really even want one in or family itr suits us to ony have one bit of plastic between us.
i wish i could put his cc on my account, he doesnt even get on his account too often anymore

I cannot see stores and other public venues banning potential customers. If people want to ban others from their private land, they will do it now by banning all but the group or whitelisting only a few people. Putting this forth as a solution to griefing does not solve the problem and creates a climate hostile to people who have not (or have not YET) decided to invest money ISL.

I've been replaying my first few days here in my mind - trying to imagine a grid where no one would talk to me and half the grid was banned to me because I was a third class citizen. The answer is pretty simple, really - I wouldn't be here. Neither would the other people I have personally brought into SL, some of whom are premium members and some of whom are second or third class citizens now. [/QUOTE]

Well blossom, all I have to say to this is that all land I own or my group owns will not be closed to anyone. I don't care what "class" people are slotted into by whomever. All my land lots are PG except for one, and there is nothing "M" on that. Therefore I do not think I have anything to worry about re: kiddiewinkles coming on etc.
Everyone is welcome in Lothlorien.
The only way someone would get shutout is IF they are griefing, and that would go along with an AR.

Kindest Regards
Luthien Unsung

Hrmph! If I get marked as unverified because I don't use the Lindex, or because the CC they have on file expired shortly after I paid for my lifetime account, then so be it... I'll be an unverified lifetimer and be proud of it.

The whole thing's wrong anyway, it's one thing for LL to record the information, but to make it available to the public is asking for trouble...

Coco - the problem isn't the amount of money so much as it's that initial impression. When I got here that first day, I couldn't figure out why some land was barred to me. A newbie isn't going to understand that the issue is that they are unverified, they'll just think, "Geez, people ISL are really jerks to new people and you can't go to half the places there anyway."

Foolish - I think you are right in that there are people who won't make an issue of status, but many will. I haven't been on the forums for a few weeks mostly. These are in world experiences with people reacting to newbies - usually after reaching the frustration point with being griefed.

That is a pretty typical response concerning an imaginary stereotypical line between what forums posters/readers say/think, and what the rest of the playerbase says/thinks.

I would have to disagree with this assessment. I don't feel that the forums are "run" by any stereotypical minority. There are quite a variety of views expressed in the forums and, in my experience both here in SL and in other games, the vast majority of views expressed in the forums are mirrorred by folks in the game who have never stepped foot here. I've even had people contact me in-game who have never posted here mention support for one or two things I have said, and I'm fully aware that I'm a nobody.

Thus, it is not a valid argument to say that, just because a view is expressed here in the forums, it and the people who express it here are not important or are some sort of "red-headed stepchild" minority.

Let me put this another way:

If they do ban you, then damn them and the high-horse the rode in on.

You will have TONS of places that will welcome you. As long as an Avatar minds his manners, he's welcome in my home and workshop.

Period.

Many, if not most, feel as I do. Don't let the hotheads ruin it for you when you have so much you CAN enjoy.

Anyway its a good move for them..

Dont think its for griefers.. Its for the "adult industry" here:
"you can continu but we are not responsible. You better take care yourself"

It going to be like the www we al know now.. If you want to gamble you need to verify. You want porn: Verify. For anything else its just come in and do whatever you want. Mabey some more group tags/land will be popping up.

Most shop owners wont need those tools.. Mabey we need a ban list with 5000 entry's instead of the 50 now..