SLU/Snapzilla closed in protest

Nice, Cris (without a 'H'). As Crucial says, it will help raise much more awareness of the issue. I wonder if we should prepare for an onslaught of newly irate customers in the forums from this weekend?

I extrapolated the Furry griefing thing, just to make clear, it should not be simply brushed aside. Many readers don't read a full post, so clarification seems to be in order every now and then.


This was not about the griefers per se but about the change of registration. Most residents don't see the change, so they don't complain. Tell them, what has changed and most of them *will* have a fit of anger.

I politely request that the offline time extend to an extra day in each direction, or even to include the whole week.

Great move and thank you.

I really hope it makes an impression and produces a change of attitude at LL.
You guys who are staying are going to have to do something, this simply can't go on.

Previous disagreements aside, well done Cris!

You see, this is where my understanding of people breaks down and I have to resort to just shaking my head. If they complain only after being told of a change that obviously hasn't affected them much then, well, I just can't take that seriously. What's the fit of anger about if it's made no, or even very little, difference to their experience? What is it about people that boils them up on a topic that's had no impact on them? I just don't get that at all.

I guess Second Life must be 99% sheep. Schwanson will be pleased!

Cristiano, I applaud your taking a stand like this even though it squelches my plan to upload snapshots of the protest we're going to be staging this afternoon The snapshots can wait.

Maybe there's a way for you to invite those who tried to view Snapzilla to IM Jamie David or Allana Dixon for their free T-shirts and signs, and join us? (Heck, they can IM me for all I care - the shirts & signs are copyable). I figure to be there at 2 PM SL time to stand with the residents.

Moopf,

Even though we disagree quite strongly on this issue, I do appreciate your comments of support on my decision. Personally, I think you are being uncharacteristically myopic on what is going on. I don't spend much time in SL by and large of late, and the few times I have been in SL the past week, I have been griefed every single time, from being orbited to having all kinds of shit dumped in various stores, etc. I've also had to deal with abusive customers who were very clearly underage based upon their speech pattern and behavior. The common denominator? All brand new accounts. Anecdotally talking to friends, especially those who own entertainment businesses like clubs and casinos, I have found their experiences to be similar. To claim that this is all much ado about nothing I think is really selling short the experiences of people who are suffering through this. Just because you personally do not see it does not mean it is not occuring in droves.

Additionally, I also find you being uncharacteristically generous when it comes to the capabilities and word of LL in terms of delivering promised functionality in any kind of timely manner. Their track record in this regard is abysmal, and their entire response to the issue has been to add more features. That is wonderful, more features would be great, but not at some vague point perhaps in late 2006 or beyond. They opened the floodgates RIGHT NOW, without anything at all in place to help mitigate what is happening.

My main concern honestly is not even griefing, which at the end of the day, while unbelievably unannoying and disruptive, is not causing RL harm. What I am concerned about is the fact the removal of the credit card verificaiton step (as well as the dubious SMS option) has removed all pretense of keeping minors out of SL. All of us who joined SL did so on the promise that this was a service for adults. Could minors access the grid before? Certainly, it was possible through using a credit card of a parent or other means. However, it was at least a reasonable barrier that was a deterrent. Without it, there is nothing keeping minors out of SL at all. There is tremendous potential for RL harm there, so it is the far more serious situation than griefing, and I think that LL has completely abdicated their responsibility as a service provider and as an ethical company.

Not 99%, but a vast majority of the general public are sheep. How is this different?

I would be happy to add some information to the site - send me a PM with exactly what you would like me to add. I know that Sue Stonebender was also working on black ribbons for me, I need to touch base with her and see if they are ready. Thank you for the support, Cindy.

*tries to remember*

WAR - war between griefers and lindens, with the mainland caught between? war between "capitalists" (sleconomists and land barons) and "communists" (consumers)?

DEATH - people who will leave over the excess grefing

PESTILENCE - well, griefers and teens, what else? oh, and self-replicating follow-drones

FAMINE - hrm, I've never been able to grow food in SL successfully... anyone else? (OK, don't need food but...) Or maybe the dearth of useful events...

What does this mean? Oh I dunno... maybe it's the apocalypse of SL... (SLApocolypse?) or maybe some of us in this forum have been doing some really wacky weed... course it could be the absynthe.

Hey buddy,

Your heart is in the right place and I salute you for this, but I doubt it will have any effect. You see, the VC firms have pressured SL to meet its 1,000,000 people by 2007 target and if they do not, the VC firms will lose faith and may pull the plug.

So honestly to save all of our skins, we need to help LL hit the 1mm mark.

I'm in full 100% support of this protest, if for no other reason than I am in agreement that one should heartily express their disagreement when they see decisions being made that are clearly done for the wrong reasons.

In the meantime cristiano...if you put up any signs/images as part of the plan, send me a copy and I'll be more than happy to splatter them all over my plots throughout the grid in support.


- Newfie

OK, there's a few things I want to pick up on here.

1. First of all, stuff dumped in shops already has a solution, be that either you setting auto-return directly or getting the land owner to if you're renting. That's a problem with a solution we've always had. Is it griefing, or is to people being lazy? There's a mix, it's not all one or the other.

2. Abusive customers. We all get those, we've always had them and as the world gets larger we're going to get more. Some people just don't know how to deal with others. Is that griefing, being socially inept, or just expecting a merchant to bend over backwards? That's just part and parcel of being in business and is something you're going to have to deal with more and more as the number of residents grows.

3. Speech patterns. I'm sorry but I'm not an expert and you're not an expert (as far as I'm aware). It's so very easy to label somebody's age according to what you percieve their speech pattern to be. But, you know, there are a whole host of people I've dealt with in Second Life who speak like they're 13 when, in reality, they're far from it. Different education levels, different upbringings, different use of language. I just don't take this as proof of anything, I'm afraid and am constantly suprised at the inability of adults to use language in a way that clearly marks them as such.

4. Behaviour. Again, I don't really see that any particular behaviour that you pick up from some pixels on the screen, even correlated with a certain speech pattern, labels somebody as underage. The way some people act around here? You're kidding me, right?



I'm sure there are people suffering through this, and if you've read what I've written on so many threads about this, I haven't discounted that. But to say the whole grid's getting it doesn't really seem to be true and, from what I'm hearing and seeing, it's primarily the places that already attract these types of griefers that are getting it the worst.

It's most likely down to the way I choose to experience Second Life which is why I think only once or twice is 2 years have I been subjected to, what I would call, griefing. I build at one place, spend a lot of time at my store, and every time I log in jump to three or four different places to give support on vendors etc. I'm probably out of the way most of the time, but I do get around.



Well, this is basically down to my belief that we need Second Life to grow and grow quickly and that, unltimately, it's a benefit to us all, so I'm pleased that they've made it really easy (almost as easy as visiting a web site) to get in-world and I'm willing to cut them some slack in getting the tools ready. As I've said on several threads before, there are often competing business pressures that mean decisions have to be made in the least obvious, or least intuitive, way. That's what I feel has happened here, but I do feel that they'll deliver on this. If the griefing really is as bad as most of you seem to be saying, then they won't let that slide. They're not stupid. It will quickly affect their bottom line.

If we're two months down the line and they haven't delivered on their promises and griefing has got worse then yes, at that point, I'll close ranks with you all. Absolutely.



Hmmm, this is where my opinion, after initially being quite against the change for the reasons above, has altered. First of all, I'm not personally bothered whether Second Life remains adult only as a whole and I feel that eventually such a differentiation between an adult and teen service both isn't viable and ultimately won't be required (although, of course, there are obviously issues surrounding what protections do need to be in place). If you think somebody's a teen notify Linden Lab, as has always been the case.

The internet is full of potential harm for minors anyway, they certainly don't have to go out of their way to join Second Life to encounter that. Has Second Life got a higher percentage of paedophiles than the rest of the intenet, making it more dangerous? I'd be suprised if it has. Lack of age verification is abound on the Internet, I'm not entirely convinced that Second Life should somehow be different but then I'm not a lawyer and so my opinion there may be absolutely incorrect.

I think we're all aware that there have been a great number of teens on the main grid throughout Second Life's existance, and certainly the SMS option was a ridiculous form of age verification anyway and really, when it comes down to it, cc verification was no barrier when free accounts were started as nothing was actually charged (as far as I'm aware) so it was risk free for the teen. I almost feel like it's been hidden behind without actually being of much real use since free accounts were introduced and so I, for one, expected a change such as this.

I do think we need to be realistic about protections for teens and not overplay it as if all the adults are paedophiles and all the teens are just waiting to be abused. It does happen far too much, it's shitty and the paedophiles are scum, but let's not get carried away and tar everybody with the same brush through policy - that's a sure fire way of removing civil liberties and something we're seeing more and more of in the real world. I'm sure Linden Lab are taking a heck of a lot of legal advice on these changes and I'd be extremely suprised if they weren't and I don't believe their management is so poor as for that to be the case. I'm going to trust in that - a lot of these people you're talking about at Linden Lab who've made the decisions have their own children - I'm not going to believe for a second that they're not very conscious and very alert to the possible dangers and are watching closely.

I've already said before on these threads that it's going to be messy for a while, and what happens in the shake-up could be good or could be bad ultimately. I'm happy for registration to be open so long as Linden Lab protects itself and, if and when required, protects it's users of Second Life, both adult and teens, from whatever they need protecting from, be that griefers, paedophiles or questionable content, within reasonable time frames (and no, I don't mean instantly).

Moopf,

I'm not going to play quote chicken and respond to your long post, but I do want to say a couple of things. The points you laid out in the beginning I am well aware of. I have been in SL for 3 years, and have rarely ever experienced griefing (less than a handful of times in three years). The fact that all of the sudden, after these changes have occured, that I experience it daily is very telling to me, and it has been my reality and the reality of others I have spoken with. I am not even talking about club owners who gets firebombed. I am talking about little land owners and shop owners who have never been griefed are suddenly awash in losers doing all kinds of shit to them. It can be directly attributed to lack of accountability. I'm happy you're not being griefed, but others are, and far more heavily than ever before.

Anyway, on the rest of this, we will have to agree to disagree.

Slightly disingenuous there I feel as I was quoting simply to give context to the sections of my response, but if you wish to label it as "quote chicken" be my guest.

I would just like to add kudos to your brave stand today Cris.
You have what I feel is a very loud and visible voice with which to protest an extremely bad move by LL here in SL and have done so in a very gentlemanly way.

I so often see people in the forums remind each other that LL owns SL and can "do" anything they like. Well Cris, you own Snapzilla and the same holds true and I am glad to see you have excercised that power.

While I always try to maintain that most of the new concepts, rules, and features implemented by LL have a solid purpose behind them, I am truly shocked by this one.
I read Robin's blog where she explained that they are working on steps to try to allevate griefing and put other controls into effect. Alas, it seems to me a though it is rather like the proverbial "locking the barn after the horse is stolen" and by the time anything is done many solid players will be overwhelmed with the problems.

I have no interest in getting into any discussion of this issue but rather just appeal to LL to please just do something quickly. Many of us are having continued problems at businesses we pay good money to maintain as well as having social events ruined by greifing and improper behavior more than ever.

May we all enjoy the next 3 years in peace, joy, & creativity...

With love, Baccara

Brave? I'll respect a stand anybody makes, and respect their right to make that stand, but calling this brave is a bit much isn't it? It's hardly like he's in danger of being locked up by the government with only bread and water to eat for the next 10 years without ever having a trial, is it. The real world's got plenty of people like that - that's an example of being brave - standing up for a position whilst putting your own life or freedoms in the way of danger. Taking a site offline for 24 hours, whilst a possibly effective way to show support for something you feel strongly about, certainly isn't brave.

Sometimes the superlatives on this board make me wonder what realities people live in. Sensible discussions are so difficult when they start flying. Unless, of course, I should just get my coat

You're brave to argue with Baccara. I'll phone for an ambulance...

http://www.sluniverse.com/picsrss.xml

Just saying

Two remarks.

1. Teen/Adult Grid Issues:

I'm against limiting anyone's civil liberties. But people need to be able to make decisions with a reasonable understanding of what they're agreeing to. I have a daughter who used to play in Teen SL. That's off-limits for now, based on this change. (I don't allow her access to chat rooms, either.) Not all adults are paedophiles, certainly. Unfortunately, it doesn't take many to significantly change an environment. Teen SL was advertised one way when it was created. Now it's something else. The change in the environment was made without warning or notice. I'm none too happy about that.

Suppose LL were to announce the merge of the Teen and Main grids. They might as well, at this point. What changes would be needed, if any? Should unverified accounts be denied access to Mature sims? "Verified" accounts still don't need to verify age in any way. Kids as young as 14 can have credit cards in their own names, let alone borrow one from parents, with or without permission. What to do?

When I let my kids on the internet, I installed software to restrict the websites they can visit, close off certain ports and services, and restrict their ability to install new software. It's not perfect (as I soon found out), but it at least makes them have to think consciously about going around my wishes while they're online, and protects them to a certain extent from accidentally stumbling into things they'd honestly rather not see at this point. Because I can implement those minimal protections, my kids are allowed online, even if I don't happen to be in the same room. Until I have similar capabilities in SL, all flavors of SL are off limits for my kids. I don't think SL is any "worse" in terms of adult content than the rest of the internet, but better tools are available for child protection regarding the rest of the internet. Perhaps we need a Teen client, rather than a Teen server, at least from the point of view of child safety. Even iTunes offers a "Parental Control" mode with a password lock. I'd like to see this added to SL, at minimum.

2. Griefing and Anti-Griefing Tools

I haven't really been griefed in the past, because of where and how I usually spend my time when in world, and I probably won't be griefed a lot after this change, for the same reason. But telling everyone else they should only use SL in a way that keeps them away from grief-prone areas completely disregards the reality of the way different people enjoy SL. I like to build, I socialize only with a few friends in-world, and I don't happen to have a furry av. This is a low-grief lifestyle. Others like to socialize, go to clubs, have furry avs, build in sandboxes, etc. They are being disproportionately penalized. Go back to Bartle's classification -- possibly inadequate for SL, but a good point of reference. Explorers aren't affected by Killers as much as Socializers and Achievers are. According to Bartle's taxonomy, I'm probably an Explorer, and it sounds like Moopf is too. Easy for us to ignore the impact of this change. But the Achievers, and especially the Socializers, are getting reamed. That doesn't seem right -- or even advisable for SL's long-term viability. The anti-griefing tools Robin has described will help, but need to have highest priority at this point, before any new shiny, floppy, <fill in fancy adjective> features are implemented. Subscribable ban lists and ban lists based on IP address, though not perfect, should be included. (In fact, I see a new business opportunity for people who are willing to maintain such lists....)

neko

Well I dont know if I can blame the new registration but... I went 7 months with my store without ever having to kick anyone out of it ( thats kind of like bad business i guess LOL ) but in the last 2 weeks Ive had to kick out 3 ppl. Just a couple of days ago there was a person standing at the front asking everyone that came in to give him sex. Also, I spend alot of time in sandboxes working on my products and I've had my share of griefings there all along but lately the amount of dorks with guns or people just walking up to me and pushing me away from what im doing is rediculous. I really dont think its so much new people or even teen grid people as it is regulars who go and get a cheap alt just so they can act like an ass on it. So I totally understand this protest and I doubt anyones gonna be so pissed that snapzillas closed for just the one day and many people , like me, will respect this decision.

Why Starax you overestimate my prowess...

And as for Moopf, (who even thought he may detest superlatives I do respect and admire) the very reason that I generally stay out of discussions in the forums is that I simply do not have the time and energy to spend for all the words flying around these forums...

And as for brave, my last words on this entire issue is that I do believe shutting down Snapzilla on a very big day in SL when lots of photos might have been shown is brave. If brave doesn't suit you, lets call it *Unpopular*...

Have a delicious day all ! Best Regards, Baccara

Really good points Nekokami. I agree with regards to content controls, absolutely. And I can certainly see your point with regards the Teen Grid now having the same non-age verified rules suddenly casting doubt on who is participating on that grid. Age verification is a very difficult subject to deal with and I don't think anybody can deny that. And as to it's effectiveness, I would suggest any method chosen, or even a combination of methods, would be wide open to abuse. At present Linden Lab are separating the two, but it seems little more than having to, rather than wanting to at this time. I would suspect that we'll eventually see some kind of unverified status, then progressing to a verified status and limits being in place on where and what those unverified accounts can do (for instance, disallowing entry to, or basically blanking, any mature sims, amongst others.) It's a difficult job for Linden Lab, but it seems that this will be the way it will eventually go.

Regarding griefing. I wasn't suggesting that everybody should use SL in a way as to not get them grief, I gave how I choose to use Second Life as an example of why I'm probably not seeing the griefing. But, and I'll be honest here, I've always had a belief that if I spent my times in clubs etc. here I'd experience a lot of griefing - it's always seemed like par for the course. Maybe I'm totally incorrect about the level of griefing and it is now sky high everywhere, and not just in those places where it's always been so much higher, I just find that hard to believe. Random jerks doing random things in random places has always happened, and I'm sure there's more of that going on, but I would contest that it's out of control, or vastly higher than previous levels. New tools are definitely needed and I guess where I differ from the vast majority of people here is that I'm prepared to wait for those to come afterwards, rather than before.

OK guys, I sat down and decided to get some hard numbers on griefing cases recorded by guys at SLPD. I focused solely on our internal reports and only scripted assaults. I did not take into account rude behavior, violating PG area rules and so on - if I would the numbers would be FAR greater. Well... maybe I should but I don't have the patience to go through all the reports. We have hundreds of them after all.
So, here are the results of my work:
1. Before open registration
Sandbox regions, average of 2.3 reports per day, gives one report per 11 hours approx
Other regions, average of 0.8 reports per day, gives one report per 26 hours approx

2. Open registration - day 1
Sandbox regions, 4 reports in that day, gives one report per 6 hours
Other regions, 1 report in that day, gives one report per 24 hours

3. Open registration - days 2+
Sandbox regions, average of... 27 reports per day, that's more than one report per hour!
Other regions, average of 9 reports per day, gives one report per 2.5 hours approx

Note that these are solely statistics and may be inaccurate. But even if we assume 20% inaccuracy... heck, even 40% - I think this is still shocking. Note that reports after registration were NOT ARed to Lindens since we do not see a point in that. What's the point of ARing a brand new account, even if it will get banned the person behind it will come back in 5 minutes.
Also note that these all are completly unofficial data based on information gathered by residents working together in the SLPD group. There may be mistakes there, there may be false reports so treat this with a grain of salt please

What on earth is SLPD?