I was a "trojan teen" (Rant)

If it's any consolation, Tsukasa, not everyone feels that teens should be seperated because of their maturity. I have a young nephew that's more mature than most adults I know. I would trust him to handle himself properly in an environment like SL.

For some of us, the concerns have nothing to do with the maturity of the minors, but rather with the immaturity of the adults that minor will be forced to deal with in an anonymous environment, and also with the parents of that minor. Regardless of how mature the minor is, until they're 18, it is up to their parents whether they want to prosecute a resident or LL for what their minor children are exposed to. This is a legitimate concern for both residents and LL.

Don't take the comments too personally. Many of us, even those of us who don't want minors here, aren't trying to insult the minor's intelligence or maturity, but rather are trying to protect our own interests.

Its all the system fault, we cant get hold of all the youngsters education, separating youngs from adults is the way we have to let them grow without the concern of all the mature life. Being adult doesn´t mean only sex and alcohol, but living by your own labor, paying taxes, raise a child, with all this weight people change will see things diferently and use a new language that youngsters will misunderstand.

So I say yes for separate grids, let adults have fun in their way and let kids have fun in their way too, but dont mix them, wont do good.

It worked in the past, it should work now too, with a little modifications. Its a pity the other media (tv) doesnt have the same concern

These people are talking about me! And for what, because of my age? Because some people are different than others?

I read the links you provided and from what I can see of your posts, those links /aren't/ talking about you. You seem to be very well spoken and as someone who was a very mature teen myself, I can understand the frustration of being lumped in with immature gits who give the rest of the crowd a bad name.

Underage people pretending to be adults is not risky to the teen - the worst that might happen is they'll get in trouble with their parents or their account will be suspended. An adult, however, risks jail time.

Anything that could be construed as sexual exploitation of a minor via the internet is punishable by a minimum of 10 years in prison -- for each count. A teen under the age of consent has no say in whether their parents can press charges against someone on their behalf. All it takes is one overzealous parent with a few screenshots or logs of inappropriate conversation between an adult and their teen to get the adult in trouble, even if the adult thought they were talking to another adult. The damage is still done, from the POV of the parent, and the law.

I'm sure not all Trojan Teens are wanting on SL to have teh hawt romantic encounters but the rules are the rules. Just like someone under 21 shouldn't be out drinking, folks under 18 shouldn't be on SL. It has nothing to do with how mature any one person is -- I've met several folks over the age of 30 who are less mature than many 15 year olds I've met. The fact is LL said that no one under 18 should be on SL. That's just the way it is. Folks under that age limit should respect the rules, not try to find ways around them. If someone under the age limit really is all that mature, they'll understand that rules are created for a purpose, whether they agree or not.

I'm amazed that this actually turned into a valid discussion instead of a flame war. Well played!

The main thing that bothers me, most of the people i've met on the main grid and become friends with, I can almost guarantee you, had they known how old I was @ the time, they would not be friends with me, this isnt to say anything negative about the people, but it's probably true. Anonymity is a wonderful thing sometimes.

I really wish the laws behind this could be changed, but, they can't. Too many perverts out there waiting to cause trouble, too much legal liability for LL.



My POV is, if you're smart enough to get around the safeguards in place, then you're also probably smart enough to not be a griefing 1337speaking pushgunning jerk. Hopefully.

The teen grid is a good idea in some ways, and a bad idea in others, because the same safeguards can be circumvented and allow an adult into the area. And I can almost guarantee you, if an adult wants to hang out with a bunch of people younger than them, it's not going to be for a good purpose.

I should probably shut up, i've just condoned breaking the rules! But, i've had a lot of fun, and would have missed out on a lot. A LOT. By not starting my second life.

One more question, those of you that voted no on the poll, why do you say so?

I didn't vote in the poll. I've never been to the teen grid, never will be in the teen grid, and don't know any residents of the teen grid, so any answer I gave would be entirely ignorant speculation.

To those who did vote, I'm curious to know how they know if it's a success or failure. Kids there? Been there yourself? Read the teen forums/blogs? Just curious.

That's MY article, and you did NOT see it "a few months back" because I uploaded it just this last weekend.

I did not say that all teens are griefers. BUT THEY DO NOT BELONG IN THE MAIN /ADULT GRID.

RTFA.

I did RTFA, but didnt RTF Date. Found the other two first, and came across yours today. Sorry if i was misleading.


First, i don't think that you were indicating all teens were griefers. Your article was probably the fairest one of the lot, and if you got the impression that i was bashing you or your article, i apologize. The other two links being forum topics from random residents, around most of which my rant was based. I ripped the title because it seemed to fit.



Ouch. I knew I was violating TOS when I joined up at 16. Not sure i had the mindset of "i'll do whatever i f*cking want", it was mostly "Lets see what the cool thing is that i'm not supposed to see." Got a lot of M rated items too. I cant speak for this person (or any other teen for that matter), though.

Anyways, somehow, i managed to stay until now, clearing the age barrier and nobody was the wiser. What was my secret? I try not to be an asshole. Our friend got caught. How did he get caught? Probably did something he shoudn't have repeatedly. And by the looks of his forum posts, cannot type and is in need of a good LARTing.

You had a bad experience too, by the looks of it. I can't really say if this is more the exception or the rule, how many residents on the main grid right now don't clear the age policy? We'll probably never know.

OMG! He's really James Lipton!



You con-artist! You were old enough all along!



Seriously though, my thoughts fall pretty well into line with Jonquille's - it's about protecting minors from the whack-job minority of adults on the main grid, not the other way around.

Oh shi...


Damnit, here i have a good thread going and you have to come along and ruin it. Thanks a heap

Exactly why my daughter still isn't allowed to play there.






Actually at first when I heard about it I thought, "ooh good idea!" Then I had the chance to give it more thought after my adult son said somthing to me when I told him about it.
He said, "Sounds like taking all the deer out of the forest, putting them in one nice easy blocked in field and telling the hunters exactly where to find them." My feelings on it changed fast.

Personally as it stands in my house, teenagers shouldn't be online unless a parent is practically sitting right next to them until they're about 16 and then the teenager should be willing to maintain open communication with the parent and let the parent ensure their safety. That is my opinion.

EDIT: NOT because they're not smart enough or responsible enough, only because they are not experienced enough in dealing with and recognizing the deceptiveness and sicknesses of other people.

Unfortunately that is, so often, not the case. I've known many a net-hacking teen who think of circumventing any system as a way to prove themselves and once they do it are more than happy to wreak havoc on it from the inside (such as IRC teardroppers, etc.). The reason they've always given me when I asked: Well, I'm already breaking rules. Why not go for broke? I'm already in hot water if I get caught no matter what I do so why should I bother following ANY of their rules or expectations for decent behavior? I'll just do what I want and when I get caught, I'll just find a new way in. It'll be a whole new challenge since I'm now a wanted (wo)man.



Hear, here! That's my main concern. I know I don't want to be corrupting some teen out there with my dark side. Heck, sometimes it's not fit for the adult crowd.



I couldn't agree more. The only way to insure your kid isn't seeing something on the net that they shouldn't be is with parental supervision. With cyberspace being pretty much an untamed wilderness, there's just too much risk. Being someone who has been in cyspace since it was limited to the BBS boards, I've seen all kinds of crap. Just searching for 'game cheats' on a modern search engine can belch out links that are enough to make you wanna scrub your eyeballs -- and that's *with* programs like NetNanny active. There just isn't a substitute for parental guidance.

If a teenager breaks the rules to get onto the adult grid, then they have already shown they cannot be trusted to follow the rules once they are in.

Breaking the rules does not demonstrate that you are a responsible and mature individual. In fact, quite the opposite.

Musuko.

Okay, thanks for the compliment... and I wanted people to take the term, hon (I've coined 4 "buzzwords" of my own so far). I've met a few of these kids in clubs, and they have all acted EXTREMELY immature (of course, I'm an "older woman", and I've had time to develop a rather... UM... _jaundiced_ view of the younger male of the species. On good days, I think there might be a good use for the male of the species... on bad days, I think they should all be locked into training camps until they hit age 25, just to make sure they learn manners and some level of common sense.




Well, he just sounded like the most whiny brat I could imagine. I grew up with an older brother who was HORNIER than hell, and I know how obsessed young men can be with sex. I don't hate TEENS, I hate WHINERS.



'Kay -- kiss and make up? <grin> Now tell me what you think of the -REST- of my site!

I couldnt vote either since I was never on the teen grid.

Still curious as to what it looks like? As chaotic as the Main grid? Or neat & clean? I can already guess- no porn, no "pixel slapping"... HEH!! Kinda like a catholic High school dance! Do they make you stay 1-2 Feet away from your partner AV while slow-dancing?

Not because you were different, but because your difference would result in OUR arrest should you engage in adult only activities with us. As far as I'm concerned, teens being banned isn't really about protecting them, it's about protecting adults from the legal reprocussions of them being in SL.



Your willingness, nay, eagerness to announce that you've put other unknowing people in a position where the Feds could knock on their door and arrest them for corrupting a minor bothers me.

That said, I was a trojan teen on the MUDs long before I was an adult in SL. I was on furry muds at 14. It's the nature of teens. I look back now and understand why I was supose to be banned from certain forums, because some of my actions put others at legal risk. They had no reason to know I was young, I didn't act like it, and I certainly didn't write like it, years of reading adult novels saw to that. But... they still could have been tapped for corrupting a minor or some such charge. I really don't know if the ban on teens actually reduces the chances of charges like that sticking (since it implies that you had reason to believe the person was older than 1.

Edit: Oh, and Tsukasa, you're probably right about people not being friends with you if they'd known your age, but not probably for the reason you think. I know I'd overlook the age difference for most conversations... but depending on the rl age, I'd feel very uncomfortable having some conversations in front of a teen.

Theoretically speaking: If I knew someone who was under the age of 18, and they stayed away from all the.... pixel slapping (?)... and did not get in trouble and was well mannered, would I get in trouble for knowing that theyt were under-age and failing to report them? This is all theoretical of course.

Just to be clear, I object to the term "Trojan Teen" within the United States unless they are 18 or 19.

Huh?

hahahaha

You know I actually did that when I was young, I kept a little journal of ideas sketches, thoughts of the moment, ideas. I kept this till I was about 17. I found it last year and read it (26 nearing 27 now) I was a very bright yet misguided "Yutz" as you put it.

I thought I knew it all, and I do admit from reading the writings I seemed a mature child. But I was still just a kid. Some things then that were going on I didn't understand. I'm sure it will be the same in another 10 years.

In an amusing side bit I am probably more "Immature" now than I was then. If there is one thing I've learned, being serious all the time blows. Life is way too short, the heartbreaks, disapointments et al come way to fast, and you gotta have what fun you can . I was a bit of an introvert when I was young

Hah, me too. Kept all those old journals and godawful poetry and other writings. Keeps me humble!

Works both ways. Again, the policy is a Good Thing™




Ahh.. fair enough. Actually never thought about it that way, what could happen to my friends if i had gotten caught?



Which is why we usually don't know each other's RL ages. Works better that way for everybody. Anonymity is also a Good Thing©

The legal issues aside, if parents knew what went on between periods at grade schools, there would be a lot more parents homeschooling their kids. Grade school is much more terrifying than anything I've found on the net except sexual predators. Basically IME, everything you find on the net these days that you'd not want your kid to see could have been found in schoolyards 10+ years ago. Porn, dirty jokes, etc...

Maturity-wise, ten years ago people thought I was a college student from the way I expressed myself in chatrooms. I was 13. I also probably have Asperger's, so this is not terribly surprising that my ability to express myself with text was more developed than face-to-face communication skills (which is odd anyway because I was diagnosed with dysgraphia at an early age).

The thing about what kids should and should not be exposed to is an eternal problem that exists anywhere that adolescents and adults interact. I think to some extent the freedom of information that we've grown accustomed to has made it more difficult for parents to make a judgement call since there are far more avenues for solo discovery these days than existed in previous centuries.

Legally, Linden Labs has to draw a distinction, and they have. It is perhaps the duty of all members of SL to make sure teens are where teens should be, so that our wonderful playground isn't ruined for either group. If scandal should erupt frequently, property may be seized by law enforcement as evidence, property that may include equipment used to run Second Life.

(FWIW: I consider many people in my own age group are morons too. 20-30 year olds can be just as immature as my friend's five year old.)

And that's exactly why there's a teen grid.

Teenagers so often don't think about the larger consequences. That's not a censure on you, or on teens, but a fact of social (and there's some evidence, of physiological) development. You seem very well-spoken and reasonable, yet the primary fear most of us adults have about teens on the main grid hadn't even occurred to you.

Unfortunately, the way the legal system in the US works, regardless of how someone presents themselves online, if they are, in fact, a minor, anyone interacting with them can be charged with everything from corrupting a minor to pedophilia. That's the danger of having minors and adults mixing in a social environment, especially one that's open-ended, like SL, and has publicly acknowledged and accepted emergent sex.

I know it's poor etiquette to not read the entire four pages, so I sincerely hope someone didn't already address this... but COPPA deals with the online protection of children under 13 years of age needing parental consent to sign up for sites, not with 17 year olds being banned from using half of the internet. COPPA's range is signup for sites and dissemination of registration information, and the age of consent to disseminate without parental approval is 13.