This cant be right?????????

I am an estate manager on an island owned by someone else and I return objects daily... never delete. Just use the about land tools instead of estate tools.

In the real world, at least where i live, landlords are required, by law, to issue a 30 days notice of eviction for any reason. Also, if the landlord destroys a person's belongings for any reason, the landlord has to reimburse the tennant.

What Second Life needs is accountability. The Lindens bill it as its own country and yet they don't run it like a country or a business, they just let it sit and rot, hoping the policing will sort itself out. The fact is that it doesn't.

A friend of mine and I tried something one time. We made a box that took payments and didn't give anything for them. It said it was selling something. The box was mine, they paid into it and it gave them nothing (as planned) and the guy tried to talk to a Linden. The Linden specifically said that because he willingly paid into the box that he has to take it up with me. They won't get involved.

It's rather disgusting. A clear cut case of fraud and the lindens wanted him to try to get a refund from me. Well, of course I gave him a refund, as it was just an experiement, but the fact is that scams like this happen and there's no form of accountability. We're not even allowed to name names anymore. So scammers get off scott free. And now what they're wanting to do with the accounts make it even easier for scammers to get away with things.

Oops. I really wasn't replying to Jopsy. Sorry!



RL rental businesses take a 30-day deposit, and give you a 30-day grace period before evicting you. I think this "no tolerance" policy is a bit unusual. Even my mortgage company has a 14 day grace period.

A good faith best effort must be made to return property, not destroy it. This is just the same as in real life.

Evicting the person is not a problem (though in real life there are laws that protect the rights of renters), but deleting his/her property is a problem.

There's also a big difference between RL rentals and SL rentals. Part of the reason it's so difficult to evict people irl is that irl you -have- to have a home. It's not really a perk. In SL you don't -need- to have a home, your av won't die of exposure to the elements and doesn't need a place to sleep at night. Limiting the eviction power of landowners isn't a good idea in SL.

But yes, I agree that the Lindens, if they want this game to have business applications, need to moderate fraud and theft and a whole host of other issues that make it difficult to protect your work and money in this platform.

So far i have always returned objects left on my property by "vandals' - people with no right to leave them.. I'm getting tired of it. Why should they NOT leave stuff on my property if they know it will be returned to them.

I would support this proposal if there was some way to distinguish between stuff that was once acceptable to the land owner (like a tenant) and just jerk using other people's property...

Even if you used the delete tool, they could still vandalise with copy-ok objects, so it doesn't help that much - and besides, couldn't you just set autoreturn?

I almost laughed my butt out of my chair reading all the Anonymous Capitalizations happening throughout this thread. The first few times i thought it was A Coincidance. Still quite funny.

Beyond that if we had negative votes i would pull all 9 of my non essential votes (im NOT abandoning Torley Day) and apply them negatively to this. Everyone in this world *IS* an adult by responsibility and agreement to TOS if not by age (stupid verification). We all UNDERSTAND cause and effect, conciquences of choice. We all understand that a landowner has the right at any time to do what they want with their land.

This is a KNOWN FACT of how the system runs. There are no secrets about this and there is no excuse for the late payments. I fully support Any Consequence a renter earns thru their actions or inactions. I also think that unless your name is on the property you should know better. You have no rights, only casual promisses that ARE NOT legally binding in any way.

I agree with that, but deleting items doesn't just affect the landowner's land, it also affects the owned assets of the person who placed them, and they are none of the landowners' business.

IRL if you don't pay your rent you can expect to be thrown out. If you rented a house but furnished it yourself the landlord might sell or keep enough furniture to recover the rent. But what certainly wouldn't happen, is that the landlord, even knowing that you would be entirely capable of transporting the furniture away with no inconvenience to him/her, simply smashes the furniture to bits with an axe or whatever so that you lose its value in order to "punish" you for failing to pay your rent - and that would be unacceptable under the law. In SL, we can't make things unacceptable under the law or provide "rights" but we can ask for them to be made technically impossible.

The argument about consequences doesn't really work with this kind of thing - the landlord has free will, they are not forced to delete your items if you don't pay rent, so it's still their final choice. Plus, of course, there's the problem that it's a slippery slope that winds up with "you annoyed someone who you knew to be a grifier, you were aware of the consequences of that action so we're not acting against them."

This lack of protection is exactly why I will never rent land in Second Life, and will always discourage anyone who asks me about it.

So you post something on a forum and your landlord reads it, they dislike your view, so they delete all your stuff and kick you off. That's hardly A Completely professional way to run A Corporation or business in land dealing or rentals.

I really cannot understand why, for the sake of just a couple of dollars a month usually, people would choose to put themselves in such a precarious and unprotected position. I know that all the time and effort I invest in creating my environment in SL is worth far, far more than a couple of dollars.

Lewis

Yes, that's All Very Well, but should landowners Have that Right? At the moment it would be Hard To Take It Away but perhaps it would be a better idea (seeing as how rentals are, I Would Say, something that LL see as the Coming Standard For Residences) to institute A Fairer System that meant that they Didn't.

There are simple reasons: the mainland's full of crap, people hang onto property in the good areas and rarely sell it, and buying your view outright costs more than most people want to pay and doesn't provide any sort of community.

But that's all been said before.

This is why i don`t like renting islands...........Anything can and will happen.

There are huge areas of unused mainland. Why can't Linden Labs provide some zoning, let some residents monitor the building and report to whatever Linden is responsible when people are deliberately breaking the building code. Free accounts mean that you can set up an alt now for that purpose and nobody can irritate your main avatar for doing the work you are required to do.

I would bet money, if I had any, that if LL were to introduce a new 10-island block, reserved specifically so that there is a theme (be it residential only, or whatever else you might want to pick), it would be snatched up very quickly and developed into something quite pleasant. Sure, not everyone wants to live in "small town america" or whatever - but nobody's forcing anyone to move there.

Presumably the 'community' means nothing to the landowner, when you hear of things being All Cleared with no warning.

Lewis

No, in either case deletion was just vindictive.

In case #1, that would indicate the player is an utter newb...how hard would it have been to drop a notecard saying 'Land reposssed, items returned'? Not very. And the player should have been FLOODED with IM's about items being return to lost and found...so I don't see this one as likely.

In case #2, again it would have been less work to return and drop a note than delete....if the land baron let it go 6 months, her own damn falut and does NOT justify vindictively destroying the items.


You can only give people the benefit of the doubt so many times, and there are Always Complaints being made against this Land Baron. A few I can excuse as sour grapes, but After Countless similar complaints, well...a pattern emerges and as they say, where the ir smoke there is fire.

As to A Certain person's happy renters and their testimonials, that does not mean the person is honest or decent, it merely indicates THEY haven't experienced A Complete screwover yet. Example of this from RL. Prosecutor went after a local car dealer for fraud after NUMEROUS complaints...and got a conviction. Some of my neighbors STILL claim the man is honest, the victims of fraud are liars, and it was all just a 'mistake' because THEY had good dealings with him. *shrug*

Always Consider the reputation of the person you want to rent from....all the glowing testamonials in the world don't outweigh an evergrowing list of Assorted Complaints.

There was a griefer at a sim I was visiting. The Griefer dumped over a thousand objects on the sim in a just minutes. A few of the folks on the sim suggested returning all the items to the griefer's inventory. The Manager of the sim decided that we didn't need to be hostile just because someone else was hostile. The prims left all over the sim were deleted and not returned. To return all of those objects would have cluttered up the griefer's inventory. Bad Karma for us.

In this case, the objects were basic objects of no value, just pollution. Rather than removing the delete function, landowner's should be more considerate and in some cases be held responsible. But that's a different thread.

This is a very quick case.

Delete is needed but not for the "Land Barons" that are deleting belongings. (Lindons must create a way to deal with this and stop this behavior - I recommend that the land owner be required to pay the replacement cost in these instances.) Delete should be kept because of objects that the resident on the land would not want returned to the owner. I have no less then three times found I was being spied on. Those logs were being transcribed by a object on the land and stored in the object for the spy's later retrieval. When I find these objects, I don't want to send them back. That would just give them every word said by myself and my guests. Delete is the only effective option.

This is what I think should have been done. Delete should be kept but if the person on the land deletes them then the owner or the item should be notified of every item name deleted at the time. The owner before they delete is also given a notice that any items they delete they are responsible for.

This creates a balance between the rights ot the object owners, the residents and the simland owner.

(FYI: you should have sent the objects back to the greifer. After all he was giving you tons of stuff and you giving him those things back is just right. and then go to Lost and found if the system doesn't know where they belong in the inventory...no bad karma - just good form.)