Advertising as HArrassment

And when those rules aren't adequate we change them, every day.

I have a neihbor that moved in and built a huge 2048m grey box. If that's what he wants fine, he is my neigbor and and can do what he wants. Thankfully he is now building something prettier, but he didn't have to and I never did or would never have said a word. Each to his own taste.

The sign guy is not my neigbor and it is a different situation entirely than the one you discuss. Just because we change the rules to deter greifing extortionists that use free speech as a loophole to extort in no way means we have to all sit around on a grassy lawn with no builds.

I would also note that there are no fixed rules really. Linden labs is the rule and they can change them at a whim for any reason or no reason at all.

I simply want to hear from them what their view and intentions are before I sell my land or abandon it if it won't sell.

Well you're welcome to make up your own definitions for the TOS. Everyone needs a hobby I guess. It's not going to change the fact that signage isn't against the rules.

"other objects that intentionally slow server performance OR inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace. "

This sentence alone more than cover the bush signs.

LL has already stated their position on signs. They aren't against the rules. Are you honestly going to let yourself be run off your land because of a single prim with a texture on it? If so that says far more about you than it does the owner of the sign.

Well, as I mentioned on a thread a while back, it would be nice if LL would clarify the TOS to make it clear that signage is not against the rules, even though it inhibits other people's enjoyment and transmits them unsolicited content. Yes, I know, they have the "LL's sole discretion" catch-all but it's kinda hard to live in a society where you're not sure what the laws are.

Yes, I find both the sign and the rules that allow him to place hundreds of them all the landscape offensive and don't I like it hanging over my house.

I'm not being chased off, as much as protesting by simply denying Linden labs my money and support like others have done.

I'm not making up definitions. I'm just reading the language that's in there. I'd say a statement like "That language was added to the TOS as a result of ..." is someone doing their own interpretation (AKA making up). Can you point us to a LL statement that details why this particular "language was added to the TOS..."?

I'd just like an explanation from LL as to why they are not enforcing their own TOS.

Actually, despite many protests about sign grief, the fact that LL refuse to even acknowledge the problem exists, let alone do something about it, despite the amount of people quitting, dumping land, tiering down etc because they've had enough, says more about LL's attitude towards us - their playerbase and lifeblood - than anything else.

Last person on the mainland please turn the lights out before exiting the game.

Lewis

You're letting someone else (the sign maker) dictate whether you enjoy SL or not. Sorry, but that's irrational in the extreme. If you're so intolerant of other people's rights, even when you think they're being abused, that you'll throw your SL experience away, that's your choice. You'll accomplish exactly nothing.

They've made their position clear. You just don't like it.

Where does it say that that section of the TOS isn't about signage? Or is it a matter of interpretation?

from the hotline forum:

Also, if signage were against the TOS, we would not even be able to put signs on our own stores, as they consistute advertising as well.

Shouldn't it be added to the TOS then? Otherwise, it becomes the opinion of the posting linden ... doesn't it?

LL has technology and tools available for you to keep other peoples stuff from your land. Sure there are ways around it and if someone was using a method to circumvent your auto-return then they would deal with it. The TOS already gives LL power to do what they want and the land tools give you the power (for the most part) to return unwanted items. They dont need a line in the TOS saying "what you build on your land is ok" because the TOS technically defines what is not 'ok' (sure its not perfect).

Anyways, most of this talk is pointless. We need more land tools and technical ways to make SL more pleasant for everyone without trampling on peoples rights. Prop 905!

What does it say to you, Chip? It speaks to me of the fairly typical consumer who continually evaluates where they will get the most value for their entertainment dollars spent. It happens all the time. People stop going out to the movies because of the annoying behavior of other patrons who pay their money to and have the same right to be there as anyone else. They apply their entertainment dollars towards home theaters instead. People sign up for cable then reflect that they aren't enjoying it much and cancel; maybe even because they're online . A favorite restaurant loses your business because it becomes popular with loud teenagers, the servers aren't as attentive as they used to be, or the bathrooms are not well maintained. Usually there are no comments to the management as to the reason, people just spend their money elsewhere.

It doesn't matter what you're implying when you consider that this is an optional expenditure and not a cheap one at that. Beyond the fairness and consideration for other people's rights, it pretty much boils down to the question of what am I getting for my money? A point of consideration is that one does not have to spend one single linden to enjoy SL. Considering the relatively small percentage of people who pay tier, I'd say that point has not escaped most people.

Yes, LL has stated it's position on this matter. Yes, LL has reversed it's position on various matters due to the objections of a loud subset of its customer base. The reversal on security scripts, the classifieds forum, and telehubs/P2P comes to mind. It may seem silly, whiny and tiresome to you for people to continue speaking out on this issue but there it is.

Yep, and that's exactly how it's intended to be. Search the TOS for the word "discretion" and see how many times it appears.

I've asked LL for an elaboration of that explanation as I've presented the case it runs counter to language in the TOS

No it doesn't. It just runs counter to what you want to hear.

Your opinion. My mileage may vary

Well, I disagree, and find this notion that we need technical ways to make things pleasant, rather than reasonable rules and societal expectations, to be bizarre.

I can't help but think about it as if it were irl. Let's say there were no rules against excessive noise, excessive and harrassing signage, etc., irl.

And imagine then if irl the solution was never to actually think about setting reasonable societal rules, but rather the onus was on the individual: "Well, the obvious remedy is to come up with a technical way an individual can just not SEE other individuals, then you put on your special goggles, and set them to filter out that person as you run across him, or filter out the IB sign hanging over your house. Oh yes, and when company comes over and sees it, be sure to tell them the code to put into their goggles, and then everybody just pretend it's not really there."

It just doesn't make sense. Also, it's kind of like killing every fly with a bulldozer.

At the end of the road with this, we have a HUGE HORRIBLE MISERABLE mess that everyone sees and hears when they log into SL for the first time. And not all of them are going to be psychologically prepared for a world where they fit themselves with goggles, and (belatedly) pass out the same code to their guests.

They may prefer a world where what you see is what you get, rather than having to plow through all the crappola before figuring out the settings, then re-doing the settings with every piece of crappola, not to mention having to PRETEND IT ISN'T THERE.

Better to simply have reasonable expectations for residents in the first place. No one has an inalienable right to be unreasonable, anywhere, and expect everybody else to just work around it somehow.

coco

True that Of course LL's opinion is the only one that really counts.

Isn't that exactly the right the anti-sign people are asserting they should have?

Hey Kelli
pop over to modest for a nice stone tower to put around that square you will see where we covered the bush sign that popped up in the midst of us.
its all within the TOS and works really well!

so far those towers of ours have been gaining in popluarity as residents get together with neighbors and I can see a future of small nicely textured taaaallll boxes dotting the landscapes in the future LOL
beats looking at ugly signage

I would also respectfuly suggest to the OP that while it is a pain in the rear there are some very very nice textures available out there for murals, uhm IM me in world and I will toss you some landmarks of a couple of places that have just absolutely gorgeous walls for sale for like 50L$ I would write the name of the place here but ugh not enough coffee and the brain is only going at 1/4 speed
the IMPORTANT thing is:
DO NOT SELL YOUR LAND TO THE GRIEFERS!!!
DO NOT BUY THE LAND OF THE GRIEFERS!!!
let them eat tier!
never give in, never say die, hope for the best and prepare for the worst and go vote on prop 905!

Fuzzy thoughts

No.

coco