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Advertising as HArrassment

Jacqueline Trudeau
Nogoodnik
Join date: 9 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
01-12-2006 12:53
From: Chip Midnight
The only solution to that would be to not let anyone alter land they buy in any way whatsover. Give us all picnic baskets and SL can just be a big "sitting around in the grass" simulator.

Or, less drastically, as sensibly argued in another thread, "common sense" could be applied to the problem by those who have the power to do so.
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Casey Benton
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 39
01-12-2006 13:05
From: Bonny Bunyip

Why cannot commercial areas be restricted, and domestic housing be protected? After all, there are laws in RL to prevent ugly building.


It's called 'private estate sims'. I have one, and my #1 rule is no ugly building. In this case, 'ugly' is etirely defined by my discretion, and those that disagree are welcome to move (and by this I mean forcibly evicted).

Sure, it's unfair and terrible and quite facist. But the people who remain get to enjoy a quite, low-lag sim with a nice neighborhoodie feel.

I've even managed to attach my sim to a chain of islands owned by other like-minded people. Now we're up to five nice sims all connected by road and rail lines. Is it the beginnings of a new, zoned, and cared-for nation that suffers none of the ills of ugly builds, land extortion, or impolite neighbors? I sure hope so.
Triscuit Sapeur
Registered User
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 3
Linden Lab Staffing
01-13-2006 02:55
Thanks for all your feedback on this issue of Advertising signage. Other people have told me that the reason Linden Labs doesn't have any zoning or restrictions is because they lack the manpower to police restictions. Apparently there are only 70 people employed by Linden Labs to manage 100,000 residents. Thats roughly 1500 residents per staff member. Of course the ratio is mucy higher because many of the staff are just programers and not involved in any Linden management function.

If it is true that LL would take a more active 'RL type' government role in establishing 'common sense' restrictions ( as defined by parallel RL ordinaces that we all live under out here ) IF they had the staffing to monitor such restrictions, than doesn't it make sense that we residents demand that they increase staffing to the levels required for proper monitoring? It also seems that residents themselves could volunteer to monitor within each SIM. I am sure you folks out there have a lot of workable solutions to assist LL staff to monitor community standards. Do some brainstorming.
Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
01-13-2006 03:07
From: Cocoanut Koala
I have a different theory, and all this feeds that, too. That (a) the Lindens don't much care about the mainland, which they consider inhabited by the riff-raff, (b) they want to sell more islands, and this is a good way to ensure that, and (c) they agree with the message on the sign and hope to attract residents who do as well.


So...

LL considers the mainland rif-raf...

And they want to attract more of the same rif-raf...

Who aren't buying islands, which is what they want people to do...

*head aslpode*

On a more serious note, I think this is just the typical "hands off" moderation that the lindens have always employed, not some far-reaching, shadow-government thing.

See my signature: "You can reduce anything to politics, but not everything can be elevated to politics.". Or, in this specific instance, just apply Occam's Razor.. Rather than seeing dark and insideous motives behind this, the simpler (and more likely to be correct) explanation is simply that LL has never had a particularly active hand in moderating much of anything in world.
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
01-13-2006 03:26
From: Triscuit Sapeur
Thanks for all your feedback on this issue of Advertising signage. Other people have told me that the reason Linden Labs doesn't have any zoning or restrictions is because they lack the manpower to police restictions. Apparently there are only 70 people employed by Linden Labs to manage 100,000 residents. Thats roughly 1500 residents per staff member. Of course the ratio is mucy higher because many of the staff are just programers and not involved in any Linden management function.


Considering I've never seen more than about 4,500 people simultaneously logged in according to the statistics on the front page, that would probably work out at more like 200 people per "Linden" to look after, not all of which would be causing problems at any time, making it quite an easy job.

It's nothing to do with manpower, resources, cost or unwillingness to take a proactive stance about griefing unless it happens to crash the grid. To me, it's simple down to - and this is the impression I get - that they don't actually care about making SL a pleasant place to play, by enforcing their own rules against those who break them. I'd guess it's almost as bad as EA - although they haven't outsourced it to India yet.

Lewis
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Chris Wilde
Custom User Title
Join date: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 768
01-13-2006 06:23
I would take the 100,000 residents with a HUGE grain of salt. Why? Because the other day a friend of mine wanted to try out SL, he's a scripter and loves challenges and new things. I was visiting so I walked him thru the sign up. He wanted a particular name. But when he checked the "is this name available" button it said it wasnt available. So I signed into SL and the name wasnt in the list. I had him email support and told him someone probably picked the name but never finished registration. They responded back quickly (kudos!) saying the name was taken and the account was active and something about they dont do account transfers. Their response lead me to believe they didnt understand our request. So we sent another email to support being super clear. They responded back again saying it IS an active account. But to this day that account is not in the list of player names.

This leads me to wonder, how many of the so called 100,000 residents are partial and incomplete registrations? I assume there is no way of hiding your name from FIND Person? Maybe if you sign up but never log in you are active but not 'created'?
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Lit Noir
Arrant Knave
Join date: 3 Jan 2004
Posts: 260
01-13-2006 06:50
Is the 70 FTE number all employees (programmers, admins, accountants, Philip, dog walkers, etc) or is it just counting dedicated in world support staff?

Add the fact that this number doesn't work 24 hours a day the support ratio starts to climb pretty high again even adjusting for concurrent avs.

Whatever the actual true ratio is, I suspect it will get a lot more diluted. Just a feeling.
Jacqueline Trudeau
Nogoodnik
Join date: 9 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
01-13-2006 08:18
From: Chip Midnight
She could just as easily argue that you were harassing her by making demands about how she uses her own land. You can try and work out a polite agreement with your neighbor but they are under no obligation to cooperate. If she doesn't you ARE obliged to accept that as her right. This sense of entitlement many people feel over land they do not own is in my opinion a far bigger and more serious problem than any signage. You don't have a right to tell your neighbor what to do. Period. If after speaking to your neighbor they don't want to comply with your demands and you continue to bother them about it, you are the one doing the harassment. Sorry.
No sense of entitlement, Chip, unless one feels entitled to LL enforcing their own TOS.

Terms of Service
From: someone
1.1 The Agreement.
Your use of the Service constitutes your agreement to all such terms and conditions and your agreement to comply with the Community Standards.
Community Standards
From: someone
6. Disturbing the Peace
Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, the use of repetitive sounds, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace.
(emphasis mine)

Undesired? I'd say yes... (notice the CS doesn't specify undesired by *whom*). Another resident's abilility to enjoy Second Life? Goes without saying.

Uber-libertarians can complain about slipery slopes all they want, but the language is all there. No modifications to the TOS or community standards are required - just enforcement of existing language. And before one counters with what gives me (or anyone) the right to pass judgement on anothers build or intentions, first pose the question to LL as why they put nebulous language regarding the inhibition of "another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life" in the first place?

Come on LL, enforce your own TOS. Enough is enough.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
01-13-2006 08:32
From: Reitsuki Kojima
So...

LL considers the mainland rif-raf...

And they want to attract more of the same rif-raf...

Who aren't buying islands, which is what they want people to do...

*head aslpode*

No.

coco
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
01-13-2006 08:34
From: Chris Wilde
I would take the 100,000 residents with a HUGE grain of salt. Why? Because the other day a friend of mine wanted to try out SL, he's a scripter and loves challenges and new things. I was visiting so I walked him thru the sign up. He wanted a particular name. But when he checked the "is this name available" button it said it wasnt available. So I signed into SL and the name wasnt in the list. I had him email support and told him someone probably picked the name but never finished registration. They responded back quickly (kudos!) saying the name was taken and the account was active and something about they dont do account transfers. Their response lead me to believe they didnt understand our request. So we sent another email to support being super clear. They responded back again saying it IS an active account. But to this day that account is not in the list of player names.

This leads me to wonder, how many of the so called 100,000 residents are partial and incomplete registrations? I assume there is no way of hiding your name from FIND Person? Maybe if you sign up but never log in you are active but not 'created'?

Lots of them, I bet. I started to do "Strawbeary" and had to back out, and that's how I ended up with "Strawbearry."

coco
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Chris Wilde
Custom User Title
Join date: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 768
01-13-2006 08:35
From: Jacqueline Trudeau
No sense of entitlement, Chris, unless one feels entitled to LL enforcing their own TOS.

I think you were quoting Chip, not Chris.
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MJ Hathor
Purple Butterfly
Join date: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 901
01-13-2006 08:42
From: Chris Wilde
I think you were quoting Chip, not Chris.


Poor Chip, always getting called Cris or Chris. :p
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Jacqueline Trudeau
Nogoodnik
Join date: 9 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
01-13-2006 08:44
From: Chris Wilde
I think you were quoting Chip, not Chris.
Whoopsie! :o Apologies to all Chris's
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
01-13-2006 08:45
From: Lit Noir
Is the 70 FTE number all employees (programmers, admins, accountants, Philip, dog walkers, etc) or is it just counting dedicated in world support staff?


I think they meant just support staff. There's at least 100 Linden accounts.
Jacqueline Trudeau
Nogoodnik
Join date: 9 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
01-13-2006 08:51
From: Lit Noir
Is the 70 FTE number all employees (programmers, admins, accountants, Philip, dog walkers, etc) or is it just counting dedicated in world support staff?

Add the fact that this number doesn't work 24 hours a day the support ratio starts to climb pretty high again even adjusting for concurrent avs.

Whatever the actual true ratio is, I suspect it will get a lot more diluted. Just a feeling.
70.... 100.... who cares? Isn't that a pretty poor customer service statement that a company can't enforce it's own policies due to understaffing?

Bank to me: Oh, I'm sorry your account was hacked into and funds withdrawn. You know, if we'd had more staff, we might have been able to stay on top of that... :rolleyes:
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
01-13-2006 09:00
"6. Disturbing the Peace
Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, the use of repetitive sounds, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace. "

Signs are not breaking this rule. "repeated transmission of undesired advertising content" means spamming, or IMing people with ads. The fact your AV looks at a sign wouldn't be a reason the AR the sign owner under this rule.
Jacqueline Trudeau
Nogoodnik
Join date: 9 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
01-13-2006 09:03
From: Kevn Klein
"6. Disturbing the Peace
Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, the use of repetitive sounds, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace. "

Signs are not breaking this rule. "repeated transmission of undesired advertising content" means spamming, or IMing people with ads. The fact your AV looks at a sign wouldn't be a reason the AR the sign owner under this rule.
Notice those "or" clauses. I'm reading it as "other objects that" ... " inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life". That is the very definition of a griefing sign.
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
01-13-2006 09:03
From: Kevn Klein
"6. Disturbing the Peace
Every Resident has a right to live their Second Life. Disrupting scheduled events, repeated transmission of undesired advertising content, the use of repetitive sounds, following or self-spawning items, or other objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace. "

Signs are not breaking this rule. "repeated transmission of undesired advertising content" means spamming, or IMing people with ads. The fact your AV looks at a sign wouldn't be a reason the AR the sign owner under this rule.


They "inhibit other Residents' ability to enjoy Second Life". You can tell this because people are complaining about them; people who are enjoying themselves don't complain.

And, why exactly wouldn't displaying the same sign over and over again as an AV moves around the world not be "repeated transmission of undesired advertising content"? That prim is being transmitted each time it's seen.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
01-13-2006 09:07
From: Jacqueline Trudeau
Undesired? I'd say yes... (notice the CS doesn't specify undesired by *whom*). Another resident's abilility to enjoy Second Life? Goes without saying.


That section of the TOS isn't about signage. Signage is not "transmission" of advertising. That covers things like notecard and IM spamming. I'm not unsympathetic towards those that hate signage but it's not against the rules.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
01-13-2006 09:09
From: Chris Wilde
This leads me to wonder, how many of the so called 100,000 residents are partial and incomplete registrations? I assume there is no way of hiding your name from FIND Person? Maybe if you sign up but never log in you are active but not 'created'?


The 100k number is qualified by logins. That is, it only counts accounts that have been logged in in the last x weeks (I think the quoted figure was six weeks).
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
01-13-2006 09:12
From: Chip Midnight
Signage is not "transmission" of advertising.


When you enter an IM message you know that it's going to be send to LL's servers and transmitted to the other person.

When you give someone a notecard you know that it's going to be sent to LL's servers and transmitted to the other person.

When you place a prim you know that it's going to be sent to LL's servers and transmitted to anyone who enters the area, so how can the above two be "transmission" while this isn't?
Jacqueline Trudeau
Nogoodnik
Join date: 9 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
01-13-2006 09:14
From: Chip Midnight
That section of the TOS isn't about signage. Signage is not "transmission" of advertising. That covers things like notecard and IM spamming. I'm not unsympathetic towards those that hate signage but it's not against the rules.
You don't think "other object" covers signs?
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Richie Waves
Predictable
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,424
01-13-2006 09:15
lol! I wonder how many posts there be on the forums about LL controlling peoples land content if they bow to this insesent kakkle.. mind your own shit ffs!

I think people just want to moan.. and feel involved in said moaning..
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
01-13-2006 09:30
From: Jacqueline Trudeau
You don't think "other object" covers signs?


No. It's not trasmitting anything. That language was added to the TOS as a result of people putting notecard spammers near the hubs so that anyone who came in range of them got an unwanted advertising notecard.
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
01-13-2006 09:40
From: Chip Midnight
No. It's not trasmitting anything. That language was added to the TOS as a result of people putting notecard spammers near the hubs so that anyone who came in range of them got an unwanted advertising notecard.


Yes, it is transmitting something. It is transmitting the data packet that causes the client to make a prim appear in-world, and the Jpeg2000 encoded version of the texture. And if you say "it's LL that transmit that", well, they technically transmit notecards too.

The TOS is read in the real, first life law, with no suspension of disbelief - and in that context, the world of SL is just a bunch of messages, all of which are transmitted.
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