Should volunteers be held to a higher standard?

After dealing with someone who was trying to defraud SLers in world and through SLBoutique (they were banned as were there alts), I noticed a certain well known fraudster was still part of the Live Help team. *sigh* This well known player is STILL a member of the live help team. This saddens me. I've reported it to LL several times, but since no action has been taken, figure it was time to ask the court of public opinion for their... well... opinions.

I have personally found this Second Lifer to be selling freebies twice, and have close friends who have caught her selling freebies several other times. While this doesn't directly violate the ToS, it sure as hell violates any reasonable person's moral standard; reselling items that are available free elsewhere will sure as hell get you banned on eBay!

So my question is: while she may not be banned from SL for her penchant for constantly re-selling free items, shouldn't she at least be banned from Live Help and any other volunteer group she uses to promote her club? Isn't scamming new residents a bad image to be sending to those who use Live Help and the other volunteer services?

Thoughts? Comments?

Just my two cents. It makes me mad to be affiliated with an organization that this person is also affiliated with.

Regards,

-Flip

You're basically asking if LL should apply some other standard than TOS violations for Live Help volunteers. You're asking in the forum. Wouldn't LL be called to make a judgement call concerning a particuliar resident who's behavior is bad as determined by the public outcry you rally here?

This thread targets an individual for public attack about something which by the thread-starter's own statement is not against the rules.

This thread attempts to circumvent the rules against attacking people by name by playing tricks with the name, but the moderators have shown in the past that they are quite capable of dealing with attempts to skirt the rules.

Those with objections to other's behavior should send their messages to [email]support@secondlife.com[/email].

Those who wish to organize an attack on people need to use other means of communication, such as third party forums, email, instant messaging services. etc.

People expecting others to abide by "higher standards" should lead by example by displaying the ability to abide by the Forum Guidelines.

Well, my feeling about predators on newbies is that they should be strung up by the painful bits in a public place, no privacy allowed. But that's just me

Yes.


I second that.

Okay, the criticism of me is more than fair, and I was expecting some. On second thought, I've edited my post to remove possible hints to the person's identity to keep the spirit of the thread alive. But I was hoping that those who criticize me might also weigh in with their opinions on what to do if LL isn't stepping up to the plate?

How would you recommend dealing with such an issue when there are no other channels to deal with such an issue? [email]support@secondlife.com[/email] is fine and dandy to quote, as is abuse, however, that is simply dealing with the existing ToS. As I made clear in my original post, and the thread topic, that is not what I'm talking about (thus, the higher standard). Should there be a separate agreement for volunteers, other than the ToS? I'm giving evidence on why I think there should be.

For the first time I'm considering leaving a volunteer group I've loved being a part of because its becoming embarassing. This really saddens and angers me.

Regards,

-Flip

Selling other's works for personal profit may not be explicitly against the TOS, but it is against the law. And since the TOS states that we retain IP rights, then it can be argued that it's against the TOS. Regardless, it's unethical.

Volunteer and employee behavior reflects on LL, so yes, I would expect them to be held to a higher standard.

It's a hassle, but here is what I suggest content creators do in the future for this situation.

1 - AR the seller
2 - document the situation with screenshots, etc.
3 - contact the seller (if not a repeat offense) and ask them to take the item down.
4 - If the seller does not comply, have your attorney send a take down order to LL specifying the seller. There is precident for holding an ISP responsible for their customers content - this circumvents the anonymous problem.
5 - Contact other content creators the person is ripping off and notify them as well.

Rinse, Repeat

Um. I'm not that 'fair' person, am I? Cause I do tend to cause ire without people bother to contact me personally with a problem (seeing how I'm so scary at first sight).

Of course, I don't resell freebies, but I do mod the hell out of freebie code, add functionality, or beat it into a less runtime-killing fashion, make it prettier, then put it in a store for a small fee. (/me reminds self to put the updated stuff in when he gets back online).
But I do say they're based on Open-Source stuff and I let them know that they might not want to copy those open-sourced scripts, but get the originals.

Excellent. Let's leave it to the mods then shall we?


As for volunteers, I agree with Flip. Volunteers who have consistently shown a lack of integrity with respect to other players should be given the boot from the group. I think it should be a judgement call by those in charge of the volunteers.

I thought you could not be a volunteer if you had any AR's on the forum or otherwise?

So are you saying to apply more than just the TOS to volunteers?

If they have to be at a higher standard to they maybe deserve compensation?

Do you think that giving volunteers compensation would hurt the quality of volunteers?

for a second I thought that said "I don't resell noobies"... another crime to watch for.

Nope, it wasn't you, Burke! I've contacted the person directly several times in the past, and urged the person to leave Live Help voluntarily.

I'm of the opinion that a person should only be able to set a price lower than that set by the original creator. Then these problems would go away.

Regards,

-Flip

The "knowingly make an improper statement and edit it after it's been read" trick doesn't wash either.

Did you edit your other post with the doctored chat transcript in which you identified the person as "WordPlay OnAvatarName" as well, or did that one get deleted?

The basic rule of business is 'buy low - sell high' Flipper. While I agree with your position and feel that taking unfair advantage of noobs while occupying a trusted position ought to be a hanging offence, I don't feel that the ability to sell something for more than you paid for it should be disabled.

So what is their story? Since you have made this thread about an individual instead the general topic of Higher Standards for Volunteers with a list of behaviors deemed unacceptable, what does this person say in their defense?

Are people who do bad things villians incapable of a doing good, that is "Community Service"? Does this person perform their volunteer duties improperly? Is she using this position to lead new people astray?

Exactly.

I think most people will agree that live helpers/mentors/greeters should be held to a higher standard.
What should those standards be?
We have one so far, and Doc says it nicely:
Taking unfair advantage of noobs while occupying a trusted position ought to be a hanging offence.
Anymore ideas?

And how do you propose to force LL to act on those standards, LL seems very handsoff lately with any kind of action.

The "buy low - sell high" paradigm is one for RL; typically, if someone is buying something in bulk, and paying for a warehouse to host them, and selling them individually, there should be a benefit. In SL, anything you create is automatically in infinite supply without regard to space and can be sold as such.

I agree with your opinion on the people in places of trust completely. As for Frans query about other ideas; perhaps putting it to a vote of the volunteer group? How would people feel about that?

Regards,

-Flip

When I think of a Mentor or Helper I think of someone who should be up to date on SL and the things that happen in world, someone who should be kind and helpful, and someone who doesn't scam. In a sense they are 'role models' and someone who scams shouldn't be a member of such a team. What kind of image are we giving if people like that are allowed to help???

I don't sell that high. I wouldn't sell them at all but people beg for me to put up a store (I'm.. not.. kidding). So I did. I made some low-lag boxes, some product textures, slapped 'em in. Only made one sale so far, I think.

yes, they should be held to a higher standard. I know LL needs volunteers desperately, but really -- choose carefully who is representing your firm and your service! Because disclaimers won't stop people from linking the treatment they get with live help from Linden Lab itself.


and suezanne, that's really helpful putting the name of the person flip is referring to right out there (albeit slightly adjusted) after flip removed the hints and references. Perhaps you should turn those mod skills on your own post.

Has she been warned already for doing this? If she is doing this again why is LLabs allowing this to happen?

Volunteers should be held to a higher standard.BUT remeber some can`t leave their RL behind and just bring in right in to the the world and helper groups as well......

Strange a

I think that Mentors, greeters and live helpers should expect to be held to the highest standards of conduct.

They should be familiar with SL, and have a grounding in the things that new people need to know, but that isn't to say they should be founts of all knowledge...basically I would rather have a mentor who know who to ask or how to find information, than one who knows everything.

There are issues way beyond just the issue of selling freebies, which really ought to be sorted out. I have observed new people coming off the orientation islands already signed up to club groups, because a mentor has used their access to the orientation island to join the new person to the group.

I have seen items which cost a considerable amount of money, laid out at Help Island (which is the island now in the middle of the orientation islands) ostensibly to give new people a good time, being taken for a ride by a mentor, although it is hard to distinguish this from unfair advertising (as other creators don't have the same privileges).

There are a lot of issues which are not bannable offences, or even against any written set of rules, but which leave a sour taste in the mouth if perpetrated by mentors, greeters or live helpers, and would be thought unacceptable by any reasonable person. Using or taking unfair advantage of their official volunteer position, selling freebies, stealing other people's designs, kidnapping people to their own land, being rude or aggressive or unhelpful to new people. Not being able to get something out of a box....

As to how this is policed and run, it's a hard balance between having enough volunteers and appreciating their generosity in committing time to other players, and maintaining a standard where players can respect the volunteers.
bws
Cali

Which is no excuse.

If you've screwed, well, that's life. There's no "can't" there. It's a choice. Choices have consequences, which you have to live with.

Because its not techincally agaist the TOS/community standards, if someone leaves transfer on an object they make, they're allowed to transfer it anyway they see fit, including selling..

Its the moral standards it breaks..

I agree all volenteer groups need to meet a higher standard, I became a mentor in, about March 2004 I think, and was suprised how easy it was.. Char teleported me, checked my wrap sheet and time in world (I would imagine) and added me to the group..

Not having been banned/suspended for 6 months isn't enough.. I mean, we all make mistake when we're newbies, and thats one thing, but if shes been told in the past its not the done thing and continues, its not really a quality you want in a Mentor/Instructor/LiveHelper/Greeter..

Someone I know to have been in the Mentor Group before and I believe is in LiveHelp (not sure who we're talking about in this thread lol), I was very suprised to see in a volenteer group, as I'd had an encounter with said person before..

I was building in Cordova (PG Sim) and they came up to me in a leather fetish outfit, and told me it was L$10 for a ride, L$20 for three.. I mentioned it was a PG sim and they said "So?" and flew off.. The next time I saw they're name it was at a market, where they were selling the free slot machine. And then, in a volenteer group list.. I was quite suprised as I'd reported them for both the thing before.. (Not sure if either count as agaist the rules, but, skirting).

Anyway, Linden Volenteers shouldn't just have to follow the TOS and Community standards, they should have to be pretty much perfect.. Although the Lindens say selling freebies isn't agaist the rules, they know its not the done thing..