Private Management of Neualtenburg Casino

Wow. This particular gaming company has been made a better offer elsewhere. Any discussion about Casino privatization should be done so on a basis that there is currently no gaming company looking to take over the Casino.

I don't oppose the Casino because I've always thought Neualtenburg should be a place that Second Life residents visit, have fun and come back. Currently it's a place that eveyone sees once.

I was hoping to make a place where people could socialize and play fun card games in 1.7. But since card games, that I would play around a table in RL with my friends, carry such a negative stigma around here, maybe it's best we keep sin out.

Do the walls around the city serve a purpose (there are no invaders)? Do the streets connecting the houses serve a purpose (can we not all fly)? Does the bridge serve a purpose (it goes to nowhere)?

Yes! They all contribute to the city theme and overall aesthetics. Think about how rich Kendra's part of the city is with atmosphere -- she has beer kegs, wurst on the grill, and a blacksmith's shop.

Now your going to gut the only atmosphere on that side of the city to replace it with ... a casino? God forbid this is on public land and we end up paying the bill to subsidize the gutting of a city treasure for a project that mostly likely won't even be profitable.

What's next? The bridge? Perhaps we could replace that with a 20-m tall vendor such that it's not hogging space.

~Ulrika~

Ok, ok, I think I should have worded my opinions more carefully

First, just because I like the idea of a "retro casino" - where gambling is not the focus, but the getting together, the showing-off of fashions, the shows and the music (well, the food too, but that hardly matters in SL...) - this does not mean I'm promoting the idea of turning the Biergarten into a retro casino. It's just one possibility of solving two problems with a common solution: what to do with the Biergarten and where to move the current casino, while joining both ideas into a new model: a casino with entertainment provided by people, as opposed to rows of impersonal slot machines.

After thinking a bit about it, one of the reasons I like SL so much is the human touch, and that is one of the reasons why I attend and host events. SL without humans is - well, just an impersonal landscape! Pretty to watch, but empty of life. A beautiful shell without a soul inside.

Thus (and I think this will answer Melanie's question regarding my own opinion) I'm all in favour of having structures for a purpose. Aesthetics are an important part of the structures - I'm not a minimalist or a structuralist - but so is function. When we add to that the constant struggle in reducing lag and getting a return in our investment in prims & textures, this all comes to the very same point: we can't afford "structures just for the sake of it". They should be both beautifully crafted as well as having a purpose (I mean, even the inside of the Clock Tower has a vendor - and also, I love listening to the bells chiming every quarter of an hour or so ).

So, trade-offs. Urusula's Biergarten was one of the structures I used for a long while, as most of you know - almost 6 months, if I'm not mistaken, with an event per week there. Despite all the flaws, it was a "lived in" structure in Neualtenburg. The most noticeable flaws are lag from the nearby Marketplatz and a difficulty in seating down all the people, having them face in the same direction. Still, it served a purpose (although I'm not sure what Urusula's "vision" was when she created the place). The Gasthaus in Altenburg suits that same purpose much better (no lag, more and better structured space, unbl,inking textures ), and thus the move towards the Gasthaus made sense to me.

On the other hand, I approached the casino with some doubts. Yes, we needed to have one to help us with the costs. Right now, I'm not sure any more if we "need" it or not (just a look at the statistics at N'burgs web site shows us that the income from the casino is minimal) - and I certainly don't like the idea of having "machines" for entertainment, replacing human contact.

Any suggestion towards a "retro casino" makes sense to me. I could envision some cool ideas for events there - recreating the glamour of a German 1920s/30s casino with all the details.

Is the best place for that the Biergarten? That's a good question, and, as said, it's one possibility. I won't disagree with any proposals in that direction, although I won't promote them aggressively, unlike what my other post seemed to suggest. I'll remain mostly neutral, as a matter of fact.

If the casino goes elsewhere, I won't mind at all (inside the church? ... hmm, what an interesting idea: a Temple of Money Well, I have enough sense of humour to accept that thought, but I fear that most wouldn't find it funny) - "retro casino" or Las Vegas-style "slot machine rows". That would be for the group running it to decide. I'd be available to help out the former suggestion, since it appeals to me, but I'll remain neutral towards the latter.

Perhaps my mixed feelings come from living iRL quite near to the biggest casino in Europe (still tiny compared to most of the US ones, of course), just across the valley where I live. I drive by it every day twice when commuting to work. I even used it in the past as a gathering place to promote some of my RL activities - namely, giving out prizes for amateur writers and similar things. This, of course, makes me somewhat tolerant (I know how much money the Town Hall here gets from it! - as do the local associations, who have a readily available sponsor in the form of the casino), but also much more perceptive to the problems related to gambling - it's hard to find someone living around here who hasn't had a serious problem related to the casino at some point of their lives, and everybody has a story about the levels of corruption and the borderlines of legality that surround any casino big enough. I guess it's like living near to a nuclear plant - you know you need the power, but you'd prefer not to have it in your backyard.

That said, my opinions are:

1. I don't strictly "oppose" a casino in Neualtenburg, but I don't "feel" it is really necessary at this point
   
2. If we are having one, I'd prefer to have a "retro casino"
   
3. I don't mind if the "retro casino" is installed in the Biergarten (but I do mind if it's just filled with slot machines!!)
   
4. If the Biergarten is to be used for another purpose (ie. no casino there), I'm willing to host some events there again. I'd have to think a bit on what to do there (and when!), but I guess I'll come up with something. Of course, I'd much more prefer someone else uses it instead
   

And my "votes" on this informal referendum:

1) Should Neualtenburg have a Casino?

I think it's not really necessary at this point (take a look at the income we make from the Casino). And see Ulrika's comments - I'm also not in favour of "yet-another-casino".

2) Should the city support the Casino with finding a location?

Yes, if the city agrees that there should be a Casino, it would be up to the city to find a place for it. One of the reasons is exactly to make sure that things like the Biergarten (or the church ) are not "used" when many citizens are against that.

3) Should the city support the Casino with a special deed/lease/terms?

No, unless it's an explicit partnership between the city and the casino group owners (see below). In that case, a special deed/lease/terms makes sense.

4) Should the Casino be run as a private business on private land?

For several reasons, I don't think that the Casino should be a private business, but a public one (ie. City-owned) - or not exist at all. However, there is the question of who is going to run it. In my opinion, it should be the Guild - which could, or not, outsource that function to a private group. This would make the Casino a public structure with private management, which is much more what I had in mind when the Casino was built in the first place. I still think it's the best arrangement, specially since we found out that the City did not run it very well. However, Kendra, our Gildemeisterinn, declared at the last RA meeting that the Guild had no interest in running the Casino.

5) Should gambling be outlawed in the city?

If that question also means - should there be private gambling beyond an "official", public (or semi-public) place for gambling? - I'm quite neutral there. I neither oppose the idea nor endorse it. This also means that technically I don't think that gambling should be "outlawed", but the City should have a saying as to where the gambling should appropriately take place. At the limit, gambling may be "legal", but the City may never appoint a place for it

Yes!

The whole point of having a governmental sim was such that we could all share in the cost of public space that the community can enjoy. It's what differentiates our sim from other sims.

Should we pave Central Park in New York to alleviate crowding? Should we tear down the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco to replace it with a wider bridge? Of course not. It exists as a public treasure for all to enjoy not to serve the public as a vehicle for brining in income.

~Ulrika~

LOL - I just read this after my previous post

So... considering...

a) that, in terms of finantials, the current casino does not generate enough money to justify its existence;
b) we have to move it anyway (at least during the EXPO), due to lag;
c) the notion of a public-owned casino, eventually run by the Guild, was rejected last Sunday;
d) there is currently no private group interested in running the casino.

I think we should simply forget about the casino for a while. The Guild has already the task to remove the slot machines while the EXPO is on, and a subsequent decision on the casino would be made only after that event. So, I guess this is the best pretext we have to simply forget all about the casino! Also, it simplifies things, as we were discussing with the Guild their suggestion of doing a proper Rathaus at the place where the casino stands.

Strictly speaking for myself, I definitely won't engage in any "marketing" to get eventual new groups to run the casino!

... and before we engage in a flame war, the idea of restyling the Biergarten was mostly because it's near enough to the telehub to catch the attention of potential visitors.

It was an idea — a proposal — not a decision. There is a difference

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you upset?

I'm a little frustrated because no one has responded to a single post I've made above and members of the RA have yet to publish the meeting minutes. All of us are operating in the dark with rumors of building movements, destruction of landmarks, and a possible "privatization" of the casino.

If anyone could please take the time and let us know what you're doing behind closed doors that would be splendid or are you no longer a representative government and instead have decided to do what you personally like?

~Ulrika~

Many people in Neualtenburg so obviously oppose the idea of any Casino. As a business owner I do not want to operate a business in a place that has opposition amongst the citizenship. As a representative I wouldn't feel right, using my political power to influence my personal business. I still think the idea would pass on a vote, but Haliburton anyone?

I didn't know this because the RA meeting transcripts haven't been published. I have now relaxed quite a bit.

I'm all for a redesign of the restaurant provided it can be done in a way that preserves its ambiance and benefit to the surrounding neighborhood. I am not for the sacrificing of public space in the sim with cold goal of extracting wealth from every square inch of land. I pay a premium for my land because of these shared public structures.

~Ulrika~

I'm for the casino myself, it's just that there is a tremendous lack of communication coming from the RA right now and, unfortunately, you're caught right in the middle of it. Hang in there.

Personally, I want to get my hands on the logs, as I think I've found our first issue for the next election -- the preservation of public space. Hopefully, we'll have a few items left before the end of the current RA term.

~Ulrika~

Speaking for myself as boh a citizen and Gildemeister I'd like to state the following.

1) The Casino as stands IS going. It is being replaced by the Rathaus.

2) I enjoy the Biergarten myself, and my idea to turn it into a Casino had more to do with turning it into a functioning build --and where possible to make it even prettier. I feel it is already very attractive, but the eternal tweaker in me would like a go at making it moreso.

3) I like the idea of a Casino and would love the opportunity to work with Satch on a low lag, very posh casino.

With that, I would like to propose the following:

1) I would like to take over the Biergarten as a privately owned business, and make a go of having a restaurant/biergarten that actually serves beer and food and has pleasant music. My reasons are selfish. I know I can make it a real showplace, and it's next to my Steinzeug --I'd like more foot traffic in that area --plus I've already created two rival breweries Altenbrau and Neubrau and make a great schnitzel and spaetzel. My goal being to bring the Biergarten to it's true potential and recognizing that it is a true landmark.

2)I would like to hire Satch to make a classy, Monte Carlo posh Casino and to that end would consider retro-fitting the Gasthaus which already serves as a redundant biergarten to that end.



As you know, The Altenburg Gruppe is primarily interested in beautification of the City.

So --what do we end up with for Neualtenburg?

A properly placed Rathaus, A functioning Biergarten and a Casino/Cabaret. It is my feeling if a Casino/Cabaret would work --it would work best in Altenburg away from the Platz and in the older, slightly more bohemian part of town.

So --unless gambling is outlawed in Neualtenburg, I see no reason that a Casino/Cabaret could not be established in Altenburg. It is my hope also that I can take a stab at running a succesful and very pretty biergarten.

Ulrika you are so funny!

Groovy. Let me know if you need me to sell any of the land East of the casino on the hill to get the build done.

A Casino/Cabaret sounds brilliant!

I'm sorry I'm so protective of the Biergarten. It was our first real building and I just love it. I'm also not opposed to a reinterpretation of the Biergarten, provided we don't destroy the elements of Urusula in the build. For instance we could move the booths, shift the walls, add games, etc. provided elements of the old build are still present in some form. I just don't want to see Urusula erased from the build. After all, the Biergarten is built on Urusulastrasse.


What about the giant building that borders the Marktplatz on the South? Now that the Rathaus is moving, that entire structure is unoccupied and on city land. Could that not be a good location for a Casino/Cabaret?

~Ulrika~

I'm a little worked up. I think I'm going to take a break from the forums for a bit.

~Ulrika~

On the Biergarten:

I'd mostly just want to adjust the faulty prims and do the textures up just abit better. Then stock it with food and beer for sale --maybe put in a juke box.

I'd prefer the current Rathaus become a store where we sell "Guild Picks" of the month --with an ever changing inventory of merchant items. Possibly having contests each month for new wares to be displayed in a sort of Official City store.

If you persuse the Build proposal I have sent out in behalf of the Guild for the Rathaus --you will see that the large white tower structure of the east wing will but up right against the road leading up to the Schloss. The idea is to have the Rathaus in a position where there is a smooth flow architecturally between the Schloss, The Rathaus and The Platz.

I might need some of that land for the Rathaus --but I don't think so --I won't really know till I start building in earnest.

This is the most sensible plan I've heard so far. I would be very satisfied with this result.

Of course not! I fully agree. Note I said a purpose.

I mean, hell's bells, I'm paying US$18.10 a month to keep a museum on a subject that maybe me and a half-dozen other people in SL care about. But the point is... I'm paying US$18.10 a month, which gives me the right to do pretty much whatever I like with my plot, so long as it remains within the covenant. I think it's safe to say I'm all for the pretty, and I'm willing to pay for the priviledge of inflicting my idea of pretty on you all. I'm evil like that!

However: Central Park has a purpose: a spot of nature in a dense urban area. The Golden Gate Bridge may not be the most efficent bridge possible, but it is still a bridge and still in use.

Nobody's using the biergarten for anything, save "look once, fly away and forget". I would be perfectly happy if the biergarten became the "default" spot for a periodic Neualtenburger's party (although it could stand to be renovated; as it is the biergarten is somewhat annoying to deal with when used as a biergarten). "Purposeful" doesn't mean "let's play money-making game", and now that we appear to be at break-even I don't feel as frantic on the subject as I once did.

I don't want pretty but sterile boxes, I want a living city. I apologize if my tone earlier or now seems harsh; provoking a flamewar was not my intent. Quite simply, the "pretty but sterile box syndrome" is prevalent throughout Second Life. These things, one visits once then leaves, never to return. I feel very strongly that we do not need such things in Neualtenburg. Public buildings, certainly - but public buildings that see use; be it an art gallery, an event area, private home or immersive "website"my own end-goal for the Field of Can-Ka' no Rey).

I hope this makes my objections clear and less mystifying.

Just to play devils advocate, is the church used? Does it serve a purpose? Are services held there? Do many of you attend?

Despite the vigor of this discussion, I think it's been healthy. There is some new blood in town now, and perhaps spaces that weren't used before will be now. I certainly would also like to see a living city, but that requires that people be in the city for reasons other than attending meetings. From what I've seen so far the city as a whole is empty most of the time.

Yes, Yes, Yes, and When I Can, Which Ain't Much.

If that's the case, then I wholeheartedly apologize. Again, in my admittedly limited time here so far I haven't seen anyone in it.

Gwyn runs a meeting there every Sunday.

This should give you a pretty good idea of my tolerance for "use level".

I understand. I was told by someone that one of the reasons that they liked Neualtenburg is that it was constantly evolving, unlike a lot of other builds in SL that are built and remain static for months. Those sites are visited once and then no more, exactly as you've said.

I agree that we should refurbish the city and its builds. However, I would like to propose we adopt organic evolution and iteration as a policy instead of wholesale elimination of older builds. With that said, I no longer have an opposition to modifying the Biergarten to house games provided the upgrade is done carefully. I also understand that those living near it might not like the addition of games and should be consulted.

Of course, I have no vote in the RA so if my representatives see this, please take note.

~Ulrika~

Still reading but wanted to add. This is not true Gwyneth. Satch and Digi wanted to run a Casino as a private business. They were thinking Neualt would be a nice place to do it as the current one we have really does not draw visitors, and they saw it as a way to do their project while supporting Neualt at the same time.

If we allow this as a private build, it should be treated no differently than any other private group buying land in the city or valley and doing as they wish (within the covents, constititution, and guild standards of course).

So yes. A private group is ready to take over a casino in Neualt. The Beer Garten was going to be revamped and it was only *one* possibility. There is no reason they cannot find another place to do their Casino. It was more a side thought to move it there anyway. Mainly trying to find a way to get the Casino off the main platz, but into a decent location.

I cannot get in right now to get the items I need. But as I stated I *will* post the logs tomorrow along with the agenda. To avoid confusion, I want to post everything at one time. I can understand there being confusion over this issue right now, but that's why I personally would have waited to say anything till the RA meeting logs and documents had been posted. I'm sure we all understand what it is like to get busy. And while I can hang out on the forums while working, I just cannot get in world. I think however the RA has been doing a good job this term already getting information out. This idea of Satch's just got brought up while not everyone knew the back history. I don't think anyone is to blame in this.