Builders, get ready for sculpted prims

I agree, Resolver. This IS a strange thread.

I just don't understand where the unfairness comes in.

With Blender being free, we're all pretty much on the same page. We all have access to the same tools to do these sculpted prims. For free. http://www.blender.org. It's right there.

To punish those that have the skills and have Maya or 3DSMax is like punishing people who have the skills and have Photoshop. What you're suggesting is, basically, that SL should force everyone to use MSPaint, because some people can't afford Photoshop.

As for the In-World Editor, do you really think that it will be full featured enough to do the same thing as Maya or even Blender? Seriously? You think that those with Maya will use the editor, other than to maybe tweak something here and there? You think that the output, no matter how skilled the user, will be as good as something that comes from a top-of-the-line program? You think that they won't be importing better shapes after the in-world editor comes out?
I understand your initial thoughts on this, and agree that those with a headstart in 3D programs will be at a major advantage, but this is true in everything. A graphic designer has a headstart on an 18 year old with only High School Art as experience. Should we punish them? Someone who has experience in 3d programs ALREADY has an advantage over the rest of us when it comes to building, as they have the eye, the ability to think in 3d on a 2d plane, how to put things together in a program so that they look good.

Personally, I think having it start with high-end, gorgeous sculpted prims is a fantastic idea, as it will give us all a) something to strive for and b) a starting point. Looking at amazing builds in SL, right now, inspires me, and I'm sure others, and also gives us a "Ohhh... THAT'S how to do that" moment. Good builds, sculpted or multiprim, are a good thing.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Are you implying that you think there will be a way to... what? Click on a group of prims, wave a magic wand and convert them into one sculpyprim? I think you're going to find that this isn't the case. In fact, I think you may find that you're completely incorrect about this.
And for the texturing... Huh? How do you get the object, with texture, out of SL and into this "good... 3D softwares"? I think you're way off the mark here.


But that's the point. Even if they did introduce the editor at the same time as the prims, people who have Maya will still use it and still put out better sculpts than the in-world one.
There's no way to stop this from happening as, as someone so succinctly put it, these work off of textures and you can't stop people from uploading textures.

And... the same tool? As I said before. We ALL have the same tool, or at least access to it, with Blender.

Alright, I actually went and read (to the best of my abilities) the Llscuplt MEL exporter script Linden Labs provided in their Second Life Wiki.

What I found noteworthy was the fact that the sculpt prim Maya exporter exports a .BMP image file. It bakes a texture of the 3D object from X, Y and Z coordinates into RGB values in the .BMP file. Other than some "tweaking" of the image (you've got to read the code to understand), those are the main parts of the exporter. It basically creates a displacement map of the object.

What this means is that even a 2D graphic artist can pump out a sculpt prim texture in Photoshop, GIMP, or their paint software of choice without even needing to touch a 3D modeling software. It may take quite a bit of getting use to the fact that you're attempting to replicate the depth of a 3 dimensional object by painting a grayscale image individually into the Red, Green and Blue channel, to represent the X, Y and Z height maps.

From Second Life Wiki:


This means you'll need to match up your texture to the distortions of the sculpt texture to get it to line up. Or just texture bake (render-to-texture in 3DSMax) it on the 3D model and have it spit out a .TGA file.

As [post=1487263]Skye McArdle[/post] has wonderfully pointed out, these scultped prims will not kill off present prim building inside Second Life. Specifically torii, rings, tortured prims, hollowed prims, and flexi prims. Sculpted prims serve a specific purpose and does not have the ability to take over all the functions of every prim. Expert builders in SL will still thrive after this feature goes live.

Btw Simil, thanx for going back and putting all words "import" in this thread in bold. I realize you're emphasizing that you're dead set against the Maya importer released before the sculpt editor. I hate to be the bringer of bad news but... the Maya exporter was out before you made this thread (I just realized this after having read over the Wiki). No use crying over spilt milk.

You also emphasize the whole idea about "SL being flooded with thousands of high quality models made in the past years and just converted to sculpted prims in a click." Just so you know, the mass majority of freebie 3D models out on the internet are complete and utter crap with 12 times the polygon count than a similar thoughtfully created one. Even then, you need to somehow get those millions of vertices to fit into 1,024 (32 x 32 vertices grid) total verts allowed on a sculpt prim. Or in the case of the exporter, a 64 pixel by 64 pixel (max) image.

There is a bit of skill (and talent) involved in creating a super low polygon (in this case 512 triangles, or roughly 256 polygons) 3D mesh of a high polygon 3D mesh. This cannot be done "in a click" (if you want a high quality mesh that is) but a series of well thought out clicks and a couple keyboard "taks". But even still, afterwards, you need to effectively convert those vertices into a color bitmap image in a way that the SL client will reproduce the same likeness.

Let me emphasize, all sculpt prims can only be made inside the SL client.

The only thing being imported is a special texture file (us 3D knowledgeable folk call them displacement maps) that is applied to a sculpt prim, just like a texture. That's all. And like a texture, it instructs the SL client to display certain characteristics. Regular textures display color values whereas displacement map textures display height values. When applied to a sculpt prim, instead of instructing the client to manipulate pixels on the prim to specified colors, it instructs the client to manipulate vertices on the prim to specified heights.

I hope that cleared some of your misunderstandings of what a sculpt prim was and what is being imported into SL. There currently is not a texture editor inside SL. LL only created a texture converter/exporter to assist with creating displacement map textures to ease its creation and allow better quality ones to be made versus the harder, tedious and manual 2D paint program alternative.

It's not about affording, where did you get that.


There's no punishing, there is just trying not to advantage the skilled and not to disadvantage the unskilled.


This doesn't matter much since it would be a temporary measure.


I was talking about all of this in an offline 3D software.
However, converting a linkset of non-sculpted prims into a single sculpted prim is something I think is going to happen and wouldn't surprise me but would obviously surprise you.
If LL doesn't do it, I already have made a linkset exporter, there's already a Maya and a blender sculpt texture export, somebody just have to write a tool to convert a linkset into something that can be exported as a sculpt texture.
As for exporting a textured object from SL to 3D softwares, well as I said I made a tool to export linksets, you can also save textures to your dis (even if you're supposed to have them already) so I think you're the one off mark, badly.



I didn't say at the same time, I said with months of delay.
And I'm convinced that texture upload can be restricted, even if not, texture use can be restricted.

OHHHH... I didn't get what you meant when you said "yaddayadda with just a click.
You meant the models already out there.

I follow you now.

I still disagree that this would be a bad thing, or even unfair, as, again, everyone pretty much has access to these.

I'm actually excited that there will be these high quality sculpts on SL!
I'm giddy thinking about it!

and.. wait.

How will we be able to import with the in world editor? How will stopping the Maya foks from importing until the in-world editor is put in place stop this influx of high quality models? Won't it just delay the inevitable?

Isn't that one of the major factors in not getting Maya? The price? It certanly is for me. And, as for what you're talking about, converting pre-existing models into SL-ready format... well, there's not a whoe lot of skill or experience involved, it's really just a matter of owning (thus, being able to afford) the programActually, refusing someone something based on their ability over someone else's ability is a punishment.So, you don't care about the influx of high quality models, just when it happens. Ok.So those with Poser shouldn't be allowed to import their BVH files because not everyone has it or has the skills to use it?I'm just not sure where you're getting this idea. I have a feeling it may just be a "Hey, wouldn't that be cool" idea you had, rather than something they said, or even hinted at happening.I think it's unfair for those of us that don't have your product. Seriously, what's the difference?Huh? Where are you finding the information on this? Where have they said that this is going to be possible.
How? How exactly do you propose to stop people from uploading these textures? I'm dying to hear this.

The Maya script is an exporter, not an importer.
And it doesn't matter if it's available or not since the idea, which bolding isn't enough to be understood, is preventing importation/use of imported sculpted textures.



ROTF, where did you get that I was misunderstanding.
I'm an average builder, an advanced scripter, I have participated and followed the Curious... what is it? New type of prim??? thread, watched the video, read and participated in the related wiki articles and also explained what sculpted prims are at the beginning of this thread.
I also installed Maya and llSculpt.mel and exported some texture - but this you couldn't know.

If you create content online, you don't have to import it.


What influx ?
The delay is here to let unskilled builders get ready for the inevitable which by this will be avoided.


There's no not getting Maya, where did you get that.
And even though, like you said there's Blender.
And getting an expensive software is a problem only for those who want to pay.


You see punishment I see fairness.


I've already answered this worthless recurrent argument.


That's right, still if LL doesn't do it, only the 3rd piece is missing for the completion.


Between what ?


Information on .. saving a texture from SL to your disk ?
Open a texture, File > Save Texture As...


I've already said that.
For "exactly" how, ask an image format / encryption specialist.

Sorry, Simil. I can't agree with you here.

There are two extreme flaws in your logic. I'll take them one at a time:

1. You said they should wait for an in-world tool before releasing the exporter, as if somehow this would create a level playing field.
   
   The truth is that even if there were an in-world sculpt editor tomorrow, everyone would have to learn it, just like people have to learn 3rd party tools now. People with pre-existing 3D skills would likely learn ANY in-world system right away, while those without those skills would struggle. In that sense, the playing field will NEVER be level.
   
   In another sense though, it's ALWAYS level no matter what, since anyone can learn anything at any time. All it takes is the will to do it. Nobody was born knowing this stuff. If you want to get good at it (or anything else), practice, practice, practice. So someone else may have a head start; so what? That has no bearing whatsoever on how fast or how well you'll learn to use this or any other tool.
   
   
   
   
2. You believe people who already know how to use Maya or other 3D applications will somehow be at an advantage.
   
   To a very small degree, you're right, but on the whole, that's really not true. As others have mentioned, it's really not going to be as simple as clicking a button and exporting a perfect SL-ready model. It's going to take lots and lots of careful work to create models that will be compatible with this system. There's going to be a tremendous learning curve for everyone.
   
   According to LL's published information so far, we're going to be limited to a grid of 32x32 vertices for each surface. That's an incredibly tiny amount. Complex builds are still going to require tons of prims; this system won't change that, which means the same kind of problem-solving skills we routinely employ in SL when building will now have to apply in 3rd party modeling programs as well. That's gonna be a very hard skill for most traditional 3D modelers to develop. In that sense, it's highly likely that SL builders with no prior 3D experience may actually be the ones who are at an advantage here. It's much easier to learn new things than to break old habits, always.
   
   Understand that nobody's pre-existing models will work with this system (well, except maybe for VERY simple ones). Any given existing model will most likely have to be sliced into a million tiny patches in order for it to translate to the 32x32 vertex limit.
   
   The sculpted prim system is quite brilliant, but it will take a lot of getting used to for everyone. Trust me; no one's gonna have all that much success with this right off the bat, not even current 3D experts. It's gonna be a while before ANYONE gets good at prim scuplting.

Look, instead of dwelling on the negative, why can't you take a step back, and see the amazing positive this is for all of us in SL? Builds that used to require thousands of prims will now only take maybe dozens, and the visual quality will be infinitely higher. That's simply amazing. The possibilities for this are endless.

This idea of using 3-channel images as vertex displacement maps is absolutely brilliant in its simplicity. It's really clever. I can't wait to play with it.

Simil, from this thread, it appears that your current position is paramount to "Oh my god, a thousand dollars just fell out of the sky on my head. Now I have to comb my hair again. This sucks." Dude, just pick up your free money, and go celebrate. Your world just got significantly brighter. Notice it, will ya?

On a side note, as far as the cost concerns go, Maya PLE is free. Download it, follow the video tutorials that come with it to learn the interface, then follow the written Getting Started tutorials to learn how to make things. You'll be on your way in less than a day. Maya has hands down the best help system of any program I've ever seen. As others have said, it's really not that hard.

I don't know for a fact, of course, but I'd be willing to bet the exporter will work with PLE. It's probably just a MEL script. We'll have to wait and see though.

In any case, quit freaking out about things like competition. That goes for anyone and everyone. This is incredible news. As someone already said, adapt or go away. It's that simple. Me, I fully plan on adapting to the extreme and creating some kickass stuff with sculpted prims. As much as I'd benefit short term if I were the only one doing it, where would be the fun in that? Not to mention that competition is the ONLY way to grow long term. I hope you'll all join me in embracing this new technology, and milking it for all it's worth. It's gonna be awesome!

But... but... don't you think that people are just going to wait until the dreaded importer is released? I honestly don't think that anyone will be using the in world editor to make stuff. I haven't seen what it will entail (no one has, to my knowledge), but I have a feeling that it probably won't have anywhere NEAR enough, feature-wise, to do anything of real quality and will used to tweak out imported models and textures.
"the idea is to prevent SL being flooded with thousands of high quality models made in the past years"

THAT influx.

So you're advocating software piracy? Nice.
I ask these things because... if Blender is available, what's your argument? Unskilled builders can get Blender now and learn, in order "...to get ready for the inevitable..."
I'm right, you're wrong. I see unfairness in hobbling people that have spent the time to learn how to do these things.Nice. Now you're just being insulting. It's not worthless. It is quite valid. But you go on and be dismissive of everything you disagree with. That'll get you far in a debate.Between people having access.. you know what? Forget it. You're now just being rude and abrasive and smarmy.See? You didn't read what I wrote, just spent the time coming up with a "clever" quip. If you're not going to participate in the debate, why start it?
So... you're not even sure if it can even be done? You're just assuming? You "know" it can be done.
Great. Thanks for that "solution".
I'm not an "advanced" computer guru like you, but I would assume that encryption of this sort would be far too much work for the payoff... which would be to stop people with skills and experience from using them in SL until people become familiar with the invariably substandard editor they put in (That standard being a real 3D modelling program). For a few months. You want to implement an entire paradigm change in the encryption of an essential part of Second Life for a few months? So that people can learn to use something that they probably won't use for the purpose you're describing? Yeah. That's a great idea.

But what do I know. My arguments are "worthless". Only your opinion matters. My bad.

So, the ultimate aim is to prevent people with skills having a leg up?
I demand that these methods are not included in the client for the next 5 years while I learn how to be a pro in 3D.
LL are also not allowed to appoint any new coders until I become a pro in c#.
Nor is any company allowed to appoint a new managing director unless I have the skills to apply for the position.

See how easily this argument becomes a farce?
Maybe you should follow your own snotty, arrogant remarks in your signature, and not post if you don't know the answer.

I have skim read a lot of the posts in this thread and to me it seems there is no arguement.

As an experienced builder in SL i have skills that others do not have. I do not hear them shouting and screaming about banning me from using those skills until they have had chance to learn and catch up. On the contrary most are quite facinated watching me build and very grateful for the results. If sculpted prims using textures is the way forward then it is down to individuals to obtain the skills if they wish to keep up. I must add that I dont have those skills at present but will certainly try to aquire them ASAP.

Becomes a farce? That would intimate that there was a point that it WASN'T a farce.

Well good if true.


You don't see that I see the amazing positive too.


I'm not a builder.



I did download and install Maya PLE in the hope that the script would work with it.
While the texture was exported, there is a huge watermark on it that ruins everything.
(That watermak is part of the limitations and is unlikely to be removed.)

Hehe.

What importer.


So you're accusing me of advocating software piracy ? Nice.
Or are you denying the reality ? Nicer.


What argument.
You brought in the off topic money thing.


The builders also have spent time learning how to do these other things.


Now you're accusing me of insulting you while you can't be bothered to read all what others and I wrote and keep bringing in the same worthless, unvalid argument, which I answered, yup.


No I don't understand what you're referring to.


I'm certainly the only one reading absolutely everything in this thread.
If you didn't mean saving a texture on the disk then you meant the other quoted part which is my linkset exporter. Well I have created it using LSL.. what else to say.
Otherwise I don't know what "possible thing" you're talking about.


Yup and you do the same, assuming you "know" it can't be done.



This is the same worthless argument.
You guys missed an important point in the discussion.


And what was the question ?

okay i have not used 3D stuff and looked at blender ages ago but well it was not something I needed or had any reason to learn etc

I have been to the maya site and kinda had a question. I'm getting the impression that I can use the maya complete to build the texture that makes the sculpture its shape and then use say photoshop to make the textures to make the blank sculpture textured pixelwise. Is this right and is this a really clunky way of doing it and do people normally make the actual coloured texture in maya as well? (never used it yet although I am close to downloading the educational version )

I would be happy to use blender lol but i'm told its hard to learn to use in comparison to maya and other commercial paid for ones

anyhow sorry for the long post I actually would spend 2k on maya (in my country its 2k dollars) I would not be spending the 7k dollars on the unlimited version though.. lol

Y'know, when I came into SL I didn't know how to use the in-world building tools. That put me at a disadvantage to the people who'd spent time learning them, and just wasn't fair. The fact that some people had previously used other 3D rendering software and were able to figure it out faster - shameful.

When I started making clothing, I didn't know how to use the UV templates, and that was just further favouritism - all those people who had learnt how to use them to make clothes for SL were way ahead of me. Some people use graphics applications all the time for other reasons - for the people who don't even know what 'PS' stands for, but want to start making clothes, they're miles behind right from the start. That can't be fair either.

These new prims? Totally, another example of unfairness. I don't know how the texture map thingy works, so it's just putting down the small guy again - those who didn't know how to do it already.

Come on. How is anything going to progress without folk learning how to operate something new? EVERYTHING we currently have in SL is either something that's new to everyone, or something that's going to be easier to grasp to the guy who's already done similar. The 3D modeller picks up on the SL building tools faster. The graphic artist has less trouble working out how to make skins. Similarly, the funkynewprimsofawesome are going to make a lot more sense to someone who already uses the technique, but everyone else will be back to newbie level, working it out. What's the difference between that and any of the other things we can do here?

Many people will use different ways to create the same end product. In this case it would be a color texture map and a displacement texture map.

One way would be to create a 3D model in Maya, use the Paint Tools inside the program to paint and texture that 3D model and export 2 texture maps, one color map (texture baked and outputted to .TGA) and one displacement map (using the MEL exporter script). This is a more streamlined workflow. Everything you need for the sculpt prim (minus the prim itself and it's SL settings) can be made and edited here actively in realtime without the need to go between 2 programs to save and load numerous times.

Another way would be to create a 3D model in Maya, apply a test pattern texture to the model (Robin Wood has a nice one), export displacement map via MEL exporter, texture bake color map and output to .TGA, open up the .TGA file in Photoshop, open a texture you want to use as a layer in the .TGA file, edit accordingly to fit the contours of the warped test pattern, delete test pattern layer, collapse all layers, and save as a 24-bit .TGA (32-bit if you have an alpha channel).

A third option would be to use Photoshop to create both the displacement map and the color map (I'm not referring to the 3D functions inside Pshop CS3 Extended). This may get a bit tricky, require alot of "out-of-the-box" thinking and a number of trial and error attempts (upload on test server as many times needed for test purposes). Setup a new RGB document set to 32 x 32 pixels. You will be painting grayscale images into the R, G, and B color channels individually to represent the X, Y and Z placement of vertices (or points) in a 3D plane. Save it as a .BMP file and upload it to the test server to see how it turned out. As for texturing a color map, first apply a test pattern to the sculpt prim inside the SL test server, and take note of how each part of the test pattern gets distorted and applied to the prim. From there, you're on your own on making the color texture map that will wrap around the sculpt prim the way you want.

There may be some additional information the exporters add into the .BMP displacement texture map files so the whole option of making it inside Photoshop, GIMP, or your paint program of choice, may not work at all. It still remains to be seen once sculpt prims hit the test servers.

Sorry if I missed it. To me, it appeared that you were focusing on potential negatives while skipping over the positives.



Are you planning to become one? If not, it seems all this was kind of for nothing. As best I can tell, those who ARE builders are all extremely excited about this. You seem to be the only one worried about it. If you have no intention of building anyway, I'd suggest that for building-related topics, you concede to those who actually do build.

Whatever it is you do do, I'm sure you're probably pretty good at it, so if you want to offer this kind of speculation about the impact of change with respect to that topic, you'd no doubt be more than qualified. On this, however, it seems to be all the builders on one side and you on the other. Maybe there's a hint there?



That's too bad about the watermark. I knew it put it on renderings, but I didn't think it would do it for this. I guess it's more careful than I thought about output. Oh well. At least you can still learn to use Maya on it, and then decide if it's worth spending the money on it.

It's probably only a matter of time until someone comes out with an exporter for Blender or one of the other freebie/cheapie 3D modeling apps that are available.

Thanks for posting the Maya PLE map with the watermark. I see this as very good news indeed. I expect I can eyeball the watermarked map and create a good enough aproximation in photoshop. I can then try the map in SL and tweak it which I would want to mess around with anyway. What fun. I can hardly wait. See Sylvia rubbing her hands with glee, imagining avatars made from sculpted prims. We will be passing around maps like we do now with textures. God, I love SL.

I didn't show it anywhere and why would I mix it to this thread ?
To me saying "it's great but..." is just a way to try to make readers accept my idea and avoid them hitting me with "you can't appreciate the good part/effort...".
I don't like doing this.


It also seems to me that all this was for nothing.
However I'm not going to concede just because something isn't my field.
The problem is the same, no mater if it concerns builders or another job.
I don't think that the bunch of people who posted here are representative of all the builders. huh, I'm sure of it, how could they be.
(I have seen people who share my "fear/concern" and I can perfectly imagine what would be my reaction if I was a professional builder.)
I even think that they either don't have enough reasons to worry about sculpted prims or already know how to use 3D softwares and displacement maps (this would explain things...).


To everyone I'll just say this :

Find me someone who wouldn't be bothered of losing money, customers and market share and who wouldn't want a solution to avoid it.

Man I hate it when people play the quoting game. Seems so catty to me

On topic, I'm totally psyched about this!

In truth, I've never used a 3D modeling program before SL - so prim building is all I've ever known. I don't have any software that could create 3D models, let alone their displacement maps. By that standpoint, I would certainly like to see the in-world editor come out soon. However, I don't think it would make such a huge problem if the simpler texture method was implemented first. Both are coming, and there are freebie ways you can at least test out how the displacement maps work - even if they have watermarks. Experience is experience.

I can adapt (or in this case wait if necessary). Business will adapt. And as stated before, sculpted prims will not and cannot replace traditional prim building. This will only supplement it. So don't think it will be necessary to "replaced the in-world library/market" as Simil stated earlier. New and more skilled builds are being created in world through varying means all the time - this isn't much different.

To quote the Steampunks' group slogan;
Industry marches onward...

well i'm gonna download the educational version of maya and see how it works and see what all the little feature are.

If some people create exporters for other cheaper 3D programs before I can actually make something that doesn't look like a mangled mess then I can always switch

meanwhile i'm not sure why people are upset apparently the export pluggins are very easy to make and can be made by the community so I am sure we can bribe or send candy to and shower some programmer with gifts as over time software gets made anyhow hehe

the maya export is there already as a result of the fact that well someone had to develop the sculptie process etc and that person was proficient in maya so he obviously used what he know to use in order to develop the thing.

anyhow since i started sl I have learned a lot of things and I enjoy learning or I would not likely enjoy SL this is simply another thing to learn. Im in no rush to be first or want to be a millionaire I just like to make stuff and have been known to blow money on software just because of a hobby so this is no different

Fortunately, this does go both ways. SL builders will likely be able to also start selling their 3D wares outside of SL as well, by learning and using industry standard tools..

It's cliche, I know, but with challenges comes opportunity..

TurboSquid is one such marketplace, for example.