Attention Immaculate Residents!!

That's the spirit Nastasja Galatea

...
interesting that none of the immac residents and land owners <including myself> werent addressed of the issue...and as david posted earlier, last night was a prime example of why NOT to change Immac into a mature sim...leave Immac the way it is, nice,enjoyable,and safe without the worry of naked phalli flying about..and one note that is interesting...the lindens have NEVER turned a non themed sim mature...

Well, Maerl, I believe someone did ask Haney, and he said that for a start that there would have to be unanimous approval of all residents; that is why I was sitting on the fence. Since that time it looks as if there is nothing like unanimous support, but hopefully everything can be worked out at the meeting.

Between David's recent "schoolbus" sentiment and and Aurelie's practical experience, added to the fact that a number of Immaculate londholders are not participating in this thread and may not be available for a town meeting, I move that this petition be declared "dead in committee" as it is very unlikely that we shall even have unanimous assent let alone a full quorum of land owners participating or present for a town meeting.

I am not trying to kill the thread becuase I think some useful concepts are being addressed here: Talon, Neferon, and Eggy have made some very cogent points, and Driftwood and Misty (among others) have very legitimate desires.

The sex/cursing/violence issues are all worthy of discussion. Indeed, weeks ago, I was discussing the American stance (US citizen here and some of my best friends are, too) that violence is okay but bare breasts aren't is kind of silly. And this Ameican schizm has been ported into SL. Not having the AV for it, an SL friend went to an event wearing a gun as a "bra" in order to make the point.

Although I'd be the last to narc on someone for a heartfelt "FSCK!" (or related word - open forum here) in game, I find that in SL, as in most moderated weblogs, that a general tenor of not using the "seven dirty words" tends to elevate the level of discourse, and in some sense SL is just a very pretty chat room. Furthermore, the new "Talk to" feature makes it much easier to say whatever you want without fear that someone flying by will overhear and have their sensibilities offended.

Please understand that I am *not* trying to thwart anyone's desire for free expression, quite the opposite. As I noted before, I too am limited by Immaculate's rating in the way I would like to express myself. That said, I offer my financial assistance and scouting effort to anyone who wishes to secure a residence more suited to their desires - which is unfortunately the best I think one can do in the present circumstance. I'd hate to see folks leave, but I just don't think that we are likely to effect any policy change here, my vote notwithstanding.

There's currently a group of women in Florida who are suing a city not so that they can go around topless, but that men must adhere to the same standard of not being able to run around half naked, either. I hope they win, as it will help end these stupid barbaric laws that are little different from making women wear bags over their heads in public.

Sorry but I don't beleive thats the spirit at all.

This is about the residents. The people who make this their home.

I work, play, and socialize in Immac. I'm friends with 80% of its residents and probably know the other 20 in passing. I spend more time there on some weeks that I do in my own home. I probaby could, quite righteously, purchase a square and cast a vote one way or the other.

But at the end of the day, I don't live there.. It's not my home, and I have no right to vote on changes there.


To everyone else. As you know I have good friends on both sides of the issue here. All I hope is that you respect each others opinions and concerns - and not let this degenerate into something that would tear apart a very nice neighbourhood.

Siggy.

and be sure to vote to turn Immaculate mature.

just kidding! and that was a joke about moving there to vote Siggy.

And when I said "that's the spirit" I didn't say it with reasoning in mind, I just appreciated the positive admosphere of it.

I have to vote no.

A few of my reasons:

-I moved into Immaculate last summer because it is PG, not because I am a prude, rather I like the tranquilty, and the name of the sim and its rating goes hand in hand with that sentiment.

-I also took up residence here because this sim is off the beaten track, ie; less lag, lower prim count, et al.


-Hawthorne usage:
56% prim/51% land
-Shipley
76/62
-Jessie
64/69
-Freelon
78/76
-Federal
83/76

Several sims some of which have plenty of room and are already mature. Do we need more mature space? I see Lime is Mature and is slated to be released to public after Halloween.

I guess what strikes me funny is that most of the ppl driving this issue have been in Immaculate for a short period of time, relatively speaking, I either don't know or have not been introduced to most of them. Which makes it feel like somewhat of a takeover.

I wonder if the folks who are so voraciously promoting this have stepped back and thought about the fact that most of the people living here moved here quite a while ago and did not choose a Mature sim for a myriad of reasons? You already got more land released, are now petitioning for a rating change, whats next? I have no problem what so ever with having new neighbors, I just think when your a newer neighbor you should blend with the community, not the contrary. Picking a neighborhood because you want to change it is somewhat presumptuous. Sorry if I seem a bit harsh, but that is how I feel.
Respectfully, Nolan

For the very same reasons that all the other mature soims have become overcrawded laggy areas, I have to votew no.

Making Immaculate mature will drive it into the same status of lagginess and overcrowding as other mature sims.

I have been in immaculate since the onset and the restrictions we live in a very little. As for open sexuality i prefer that behind closed doors and see no reason to share intimate conversations in the open channel.

Immaculate is the New Zealnd of SL and has been pleasant in that mode.

I see no reason and more chances of destroying what we have and vote no to altering the rating of Immaculate. i am not willing to risk my peaqce at home in order to prove a point that we can be heard.

Since this will ber amajor decision in our SecondLife homes, we have to haev a meeting in which all current owners are present. No others should be allowed to purchase land and vote. if land ownership was made after the posting of the initial post in thios thread, then there should be no vote for that land owner. This keeps it from getting ugly and any stacking of the deck to occur.

I do not see a quorum as beinbg sufficient to carry out any voting procedure when it involves trhe land we work, live, play and own.

I wish you luck in attempting to get all rfesidents online at the same time. There must be mnediation in making sure thaqt the received votes are reported correctly. It is the only fair way.

My thanks to Nolan for posting this for me tonight, as I am unable to post replys at the moment to the forum.

I read this post with interest, and the words from the initial post, "We the Residents of Immaculate hereby request that our beloved home be changed to a Mature Area." caught my eye.

I've lived in Immaculate since July of this year, having purchased a bit of land loving called "Fool Moon Beach" because of the beautiful sunrises and sunsets seen from it's land. So I am considering myself a resident of Immaculate.

I was not aware of this initiative, even after visiting and speaking with Aynen, Keferon and Misty just last Sunday. In contacting Misty last night via IM, she asked that I address my concerns and thoughts about this on the forum.

After reading several of these posts, it seems that many of the residents were not informed of this initiative; and by the posts of many, that the entire population of Immaculate is not in agreement on this issue.

Having made my home in Immaculate, I have enjoyed adult conversations and laughter each and every night.

The lessons I have learned from SL and it's rated Sims is really simple. It's really not the rating of the land that makes the area "mature" or not; but it's the residents and their sense of being that makes it so.

I could go into any mature sim and enjoy erotic art, erotic chat, and erotic toys; but I chose to live in Immaculate so that I could have a choice; or basically enjoy both worlds.
And since this issue has been raised, and since I have been given a choice in the matter, my no vote is given.

If a meeting is held next week on this matter; I do hope that all of the residents are informed in a timely matter so that they can make arrangements to attend. If a vote is to be taken, proxy's should be offered to those not in attendance.

Lynn Lippman
Fool Moon Beach
(We put the "oh" in innuendos!)

To The Residents of Immaculate

I was thrilled at the notion of being afforded the opportunity to try to see if we as residents could try to do something groundbreaking here in Second Life.

My error was in the wording of my first posting here which started this thread. So, I will attempt to clarify it here and now.

We <---- meaning my friends and neighbors on my so-called block in Immaculate speculated about whether or not it was possible to change a sims rating.

I did ask a Linden, if you wanted to do something of this nature where would you begin. I was told to first post it in the forums so that the most residents could be reached.

I, in wording my original post, asked that you respond with a yes and include the paragraph which was listed separately at the end of my letter and after my signature. This being my first mistake because anyone just glancing would not realize that.

I was not trying to keep this under wraps or do it without the residents of Immaculate's imput. That is why this thread was created and all your responses are here and read.

I knew going into this would open debate, but debate and how our neighbors feel is important and healthy. I don't believe <---- and this is my personal opinion and not those of a group or of the population of Immaculate --- > that my opinion counts no more or less then my neighbor's based on how long I have lived in Immaculate.

No I could not go door to door since all residents are not all on at the same time and because I am currently playing in an almost constant state of lag.

I don't have a business in Immaculate because of my lagging. Its my home too, and I am sorry I have not lived here as long as others and that because of that fact you may feel I should not be allowed to state an opinion.

This forum and the thread I started was for all residents to respond to. It was not addressed to Lindens or Second Life. Only to the residents of Immaculate.

I was not going over anyone's heads. I was starting here within our community to get a response on how MY neighbors would accept or reject this idea.

I feel many valid points both for and against have been made here. And welcome more discussion on this. And yes it would be impossible for everyone to attend a meeting to discuss this for a 100% agreement either for or against this idea. It was my goal to reach a MAJORITY one way or the other before attempting to proceed in any manner.

The idea was to try and get a community involved and active. To learn about my neighbors and hopefully meet them as well. I am hurt by the way some have chosen to respond yet very proud of others who have voiced their disagreement without making innuendo or accusations.

I am always at home since lagging has prevented me from staying in larger events most times. All are welcome to come to my home in Immaculate on Wednesday evening the 5th of November at 7:00 pm cst or 10:00 pm est (my time zone). All I ask when you attend is that we stick to honest debate without making anyone feel bad for doing so.

I take full responsibility for not stating clearly in my post that this was my way of reaching and informing the residents of Immaculate and affording all the opportunity to state whether you were for or against this idea. I mistakenly believed that my heading TO ALL IMMACULATE RESIDENTS was self explanatory.

I cannot applogize for having an opinion and being able to express it here. I did however, try to reach all residents with this post. And I do appologize for not stating in a clear and precise manner my intentions.

Sincerely,
Misty Rhodes

Misty,

Why, when there is a mature sim (Hawthorne) with nearly the identical prim and land usage as "our beloved Immaculate" do you wish to change a clearly and historically PG sim to mature? I don't get it. What am I missing? You can feign being offended but frankly I am offended by your attempt to gain votes by masquerading your personal goals under the guise of:

" This will be a ground breaking event if we can make our voices heard. Lets open the doors to real voting and pave the way to future decisions in which our imput counts!"

This statement sounds so much like a political slogan its's scary...Is your "input" repressed? What is the basis for that statement? SL is actually the most non-repressed online game that i have played thus far. Their system for addressing player issues is light years above the rest. Not to mention the fact that your "input" obviously counts as you sucessfully petitioned the Lindens to release more land in Immaculate.

"real voting"? is there "fake voting"?

"ground breaking" Oh come on now, I suppose folks will be buzzing about this for years to come.

Therefore, I can only interpret this as an attempt to mold a pre-existing community to your views, ideals, and lifestyle, all riding on the premise that it would somehow show the "powers that be" that we can make a difference. If you thought that hookline was powerful enough to gain a unanimous vote you are sorely mistaken.

No one ever tried to make you feel your opinion wasnt valid, we simply voted and expressed the whys and wherefores of our votes, if that's not open dialogue, healthy discussion, I don't know what is...

btw, I think a sim meeting is unnecessary as it will will obviously not solve this, a unanimous vote is needed which has not been presented in this thread, and definately will not be, so it makes the meeting a moot point.

Nevertheless it should be most interresting, not to mention fair to those who feel they have not been heard.

I don't think any of us expected a unanimous vote to begin with.
I, for one, sure did not.
But now that Misty threw us on the ride I don't regret it as it's always a usefull experience.
Had I been the one to take initiative I would have done certain things differently but I'd still like to see this through.
Even though it's getting ever more clear Immaculate won't be a mature sim.

So for the sake of experience, let's not walk away just yet, please.

Take a couple of breaths folks, some of these posts are getting an accusatory tone, and I'd rather drop the WHOLE THING than cause bad feelings... I was tinkering with a problem at 3:00 A.M. today, and was visited by a neighbor that helped me get done what I wanted... I want to keep that friendliness.

This issue was raised almost simultaneously with signs asking to come here and check it out. Those signs are everywhere now, PURELY for the sake of getting the neighborhood involved. Nobody tried to sneak anything through.

Misty, by the way, is a very nice and helpful lady, and I would like to ask people to lighten up on her. She has a preference on this issue, sure, but has no intention of pulling anything shady.

I can understand the concerns some of you raise, but I think these attitudes cause the problem. When adult behaviour is restricted to commercial areas, you get commercial exploitation of those interests, which is what we ALL despise. We are NOT a commercial zone, we are an established neighborhood.

The reason those commercial zones are so tacky is that anytime anyone in the whole world wants to do something a little tittlating, they have to go to one of these zones, which commercialize and cheapen everything. Only a few places on the net have ever tried a relaxed, informal, and friendly approach to adult behaviour, which allows for a lot of fun and no crass exploitation.

We are an established group of adults, everyone of my neighbors has been friendly, helpful, and tasteful, and the land is almost all gone, so there aren't likely to be new people coming in to ruin everything.

I just want to be able to go skinny dipping, or be openly flirtatious. And, yes, if two people get along especially well, I think they should be able to trot off somewhere and do what they want about it.

There's nothing wrong with this, and I don't find most of the arguments against it convincing. When more people are relaxed about sexual themes, then the sexual themes will be relaxed as well. This isn't a redlight district, it's a neighborhood.

Ingot

I am sorry, but I will be on travel on Wednesday and may have no connection at all. I will not be able to attend the proposed meeting.

First off this is not groundbreaking and history-making. Gibson did it and as is obvious it ddi not make history. So let’s no go there at all. Plus it did sound hyped.

My vote will not change. I have not seen anything in this forum that makes changing to a mature an option I would support.

My reasons for a no vote are as follows:

There are other mature sim that are not full, Hawthorne for example. There is soon to be a new sim, Lime, that will be totally open and mature. While I have moved my house several times, I understand the reluctance to move for those pro to living in a mature. But it was evident you moved into a Pg when you arrived and even when you invited your friends to move here.

I do take some umbrage to the statements of finding a mature sim for a group of people to reside and have a community and then deciding on a PG sim and inviting folks to move there. That almost smacks of a takeover attempt.

I also do not like that the land release by Haney appears to be a result of opening the land after the discussion of making it mature started. The part of Immaculate the is pro PG had no idea thios was going to occur. I heard about it the night after it happened. In that week’s time I saw the population of Immaculate double in essence.

The burden-of-proof here lies in the reasons to change the sim to mature not why we should not. And the reasons I have seen have been:

1. Open language/flirtation
2. Open sexuality
3. Skinny dipping

We are a full community and we have in the past lived among each other in an open attitude. The chances of being TOSed by a member of the community are slim. We are not a flyby zone being in our little corner on the edge of the world. With the mapped future expansion that will occur much later, we will still be out-of the way. We get very few visitors and live a much more rural existence. And it has been pleasant and I am in fact proud to say I live in the “sticks”. So the chances overall of having a complaint are very slim for saying the wrong word. We deal with issues at the personal level. In the post the excessively young individuals that accosted some of our residents were caged and laughed at and taken as what they were, goofballs.

I believe that intimacy should be just that intimate between one or a few willing adults. I have no desire to log on and find a couple going at it on my front lawn, whether they be residents or not. And this does happen in mature sims. They become a place where you can go to do what you wish, whether you live ther or not. They become a place where the HYNG think they can come and pick up a little action. The options exist in the present version of SL to have a closed chat.

For the same reason that we are all known adulkts in this community skinny dipping is not an issue. Many of the residents in the sim are on when there are maybe a handful of people in the entire SL world.

Malachi and Ingot have both brought about the proposition that this be dropped. I will not change my vote and that kills any hopes of getting a unanimous decision (unless my land becomes worth ten times its present value <wink> <lol>. The community is operating well and I urge all to consider this option.

I would be sad to lose some of the newer neighbors and quite a few I have not met as of yet. I lok at the postings and realize there are a few I did not know existed though, I may have voted at your builds. But if it a mature community you seek to develop the options are there.

For the emotion of this thread, there has been no name calling, and I believe it has been farily reasonble, showing how we inter-realte.

Sincerely
Reve Monde
The Fool on the Hill

here's what the Linden's said about the Burning Halloween sims....

so no new mature sim there.

[/B]

You are entitled to your opinion, and your views, BUT...

I take ubrage at your umbrage. I know some of the people tht are supporting the change, and none of them are trying anything underhanded. They are trying to get the Mature rating because they want it, but that's it. Nobody is trying to rig the process in any way, and it bothers me to see the accusation.

In addition, I have NOT said anything about he proposition being dropped. I did not bring UP this proposition, but I do favor it. I cast my vote, and I am here discussing it, but that is it.

Just to be clear, I am FOR changing to a M rating.

Ingot

Sorry for misquoting you, Ingot. And while i do not attempt to blamje any one on wrong doing, it was not good that the land release occurred at this time.

I blame no one and there are interests in both sides and in the interets of community , i foillowed the suggestion that maybe the issue should be dropped.

these are opinions and I have no emotion in this debate. I do not gte hot under the collar and i did not want to accuse, but to state what has been said and verify that there woulkd be no unanimity cause i will not vote for mature.

Misty has called a meeting and it will be held, the above posting is record that i cannot attend and what my position is.

Reve Monde
The Fool on the Hill

Hello,

I am Rick Crossing and I am NOISE TANK and I am an Original resident of Immaculate.

The NOISE TANKS were Major part of Immaculate and although when Second Life went Live and more than several members left the world I for one stayed and built My NOISE TANK Gallery in tribute to them and Rygar Grimm our Leader.

In other words I have My roots here.

A few of you New members to the Immaculate Neighborhood have tried to get Me to leave saying that I do not fit into the neighborhood. Well as others ( the Immaculate Concepts ) before You can tell You I will stay.

On one side it is unfortunate that the Lindens released so much Immaculate land during this time of discussion about the neighborhood status and becuase the new mass influx of people that have totally destoyed the landscape. But on the other side several of the new people have added not only to Imacculate but also to the Second Life World and they are welcome.

When I first saw the sign about changing Immaculate to Mature and urging people to come to this forum to talk about it I was all right yes We should do that especially becuase I have some non NOISE TANK stuff I would like to share that might need a Mature site to be seen but also I recently saw the Movie Cabin Fever and wanted to build a representation of it I thought about one of the sims with a Cabin Motif and about My own Nieghborhood of Immaculate and decide that neither would be good and that I needed to build my Cabin Fever in a Mature sim becuase of the violence and gross amount af blood involved. So you see I understand about wanting Immaculate to be Mature if it was then I could have built it here but I really had no problem finding a site in Hawthorn for it.

But after coming to this forum and reasing all the thoughts on both sides so far I would have to vote No to making it a Mature sim I agree that it would make it unliveable.
the PG-16 sounds intreesting also but again what fun would it be to have a conversation with someone that every other word out of their mouth was Bleep

and lastly as I said before My Roots are here in Immaculate and I will add that I have seen a lot of people come and make their changes and then go away and then those few of us that stay have to deal with the changes that were made and left behind.


Rick Crossing NOISE TANK Immaculate Resident

Uh, no. Try taking numbers AFTER people have gotten their builds back up post-1.1 change.

Hawthorne - 64% prims / 60% land, in small (unusable) plots and most of that underwater.

Shipley - 78% prims / 63% land. Again. Small, unusable plots. Nothing big enough for a house.

Jessie - 57% prims /64% land. Who cares? I don't want to live in a damned war zone.

Freelon - 82% prims / 76% land. Again. Small and unusable plots.

Federal - 85% prims / 79% land. And that only because several large builds have been pulled down in the past day or so. It was hovering at 99-100% prims.

I notice you also left out Stanford (83% prims / 99% land), Da Boom (101% prims / 63% land), Tehama (98% prims / 52% land), Chartreuse (75% prims / 100% land) and the new Cayman sim at 89% prims and 100% land.


The bottom line FACT is that the mature sims are desperate for space. I can hardly blame anyone for wanting to convert a sim from PG to mature. And if Immaculate were to convert to mature I'd move there if I could find space. It's one of the only sims I've found that hasn't been devastated by people that want to lower the entire game to sea level. (Something I still for the life of me don't understand.)

UH, yeah,
Those figures were taken AFTER 1.1 bud. The day I posted that as a matter of fact, I flew around to all mature sims and checked. My apologies for not posting a daily usage update. *rolling eyes* Maybe that would have prevented non-residents from poking their noses in... By the way, Immaculate also had very little space until Misty and company got more land released...

Why don't you go about this the proper way? Such as petitioning the Lindens for a new mature sim? Rather than choosing a pre-existing sim to push your agenda? Ever stop to think that maybe some of us have lived here for months and don't want it pushed down our throats? I guess not.... Don't make me put up a comparison chart of other PG sims that are empty enough to also facilitate a group of new residents.

As a footnote, a great many of the new builds in Immaculate ARE in the WATER.

Lets reverse this, for fun, with a hypothetical. You live in a Mature sim and my friends and I decide to move to your sim, based on the prim count and land usage only. (sound familiar?) and then to boot, we start petitioning to have it changed to PG. How would you like it?

The reason I didnt include the full "Mature" sims should be obvious, THEY ARE FULL. Not obvious enough for some I guess....

P.S. I just logged in and flew around Hawthorne... "The bottom line FACT is" there is still plenty of room, I see very few areas that can be called unusable, and to boot, the land CAN BE RAISED in the water , if it really is such a hardship to build in the water. It obviously wasnt a hardship in Immaculate.

What we have here is a handful of new residents (and now some NON Immaculate residents) that would like to change a well established, quiet, PG sim into a mature lagfest.
While I realize this is not their direct goal, this IS what will happen, assuming of course the change goes through, which it won't.

Daily usage isn't required.... however, checking into the overall status of such areas, (like the inability to build in Federal until just recently, as an example) would be a good idea if you're going to suggest that someone else move to another zone. Issues like that are imporant.

To answer your question.... yes, but you're comparing different issues. If someone came into Freelon and tried to make it PG, (IE MORE restrictive than it currently is,) yes... I'd have a problem with it. I could no longer do what I want to do. If someone came in and tried to make it LESS restrictive, odds are I'd have no problem with it at all. Therein lies the difference. One change effects current residents adversely. The other, aside from hysterical fears stemming from people's misconceptions that mature sims are nothing more than a bunch of people of both genders running around battering each other with enormous phalluses, does not.

The posting about land and prim usage simply ignores the actual point. 'Go to an existing mature sim!' The original idea.... which is what this thread is all about.... is NOT possible in any existing sim. There.... is... not... enough.... space. Simply looking at the numbers isn't enough. Yes, 40% of the land in Hawthorne is still available. And if you want to build a tiny shack on a small desert island, Hawthorne's where you want to be. That's literally all you'll be able to build, but if that's what you want, then knock yourself out. The original post, however, was about creating a mature zone community. People who want to build nice houses and live their secondlives.... without having to worry about people getting on their case about language or 'adult situations.' Aside from the occasional newbie, people in mature zones tend to be very understanding of their neighbors' preferences, and no there's no open cyber on every lawn. The 'mature' nature of the sim isn't going to be forced on you. You aren't going to be forced to have daily orgies on your deck, and if your neighbor throws such a party most likely you won't know unless you've been invited, or go around peeking in windows. (In which case what you see is your own fault.)

I'd have to ask what the PROBLEM with converting Immac to mature would be? The mature zones are no more laggy than any equivalent zone. Those with adult businesses in them are more laggy than those without, but that also holds true for PG sims. (Natoma lags pretty badly for me.) Commercialized sims are laggy. Period. They have high prim counts and odd buildings. This holds true for both mature and PG sims. This also is not what the original post is about. (That being a RESIDENTIAL community.) So what's the actual problem? I'm genuinely curious.

" The mature zones are no more laggy than any equivalent zone."

(amid several other off the wall observations...)

HUH?

WE SAID NOTHING ABOUT ORGIES AND THE LIKE. We cited usage, i.e, LAG, as the MAIN reason. Not to mention the political grandstanding involved in this whole movement.

Thank you so much for not requiring a daily sim usage update..... That added to listening to your bleeding heart thread hijacking diatribe which accuses me of not staying on topic (this thread was about voting, and our reasons, not cross examination) was about to drive me insane until I remembered, some people believe they should be able to have everthing they want, regardless of the feelings of those around them, an entitlement , if you will...

Although most of of us didnt respond in the format Misty had wished, I think the overall message was and is clear and this dialogue is unnecessary.

You wanna lecture me about the original intent of this thread? Where's your vote? Where's your land in Immaculate? Your warped perspective will surely only fuel your self-martyrdom...

P.S. I dont owe you "an actual answer". Someone wise once warned me about arguing with stones..*wink*