Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

The real problem with an openspace is how the estate owners set them up, not how they are used. Let me explain. Since there are 4 openspaces per processor it is assumed that you get only 1/4th the resources of a full sim. Wallah, no problems right? NO! the problems come in when you give the estate owner the ability to increase the prims avalable in the sim per parcel, via the object bonus. AND a full sim can handle 50 residents on it at a time (actually depending on how many prims they are wearing plus scripts) so why would you have it set up to allow 50 people in an opensim? Actually the number of agents that should be allowed in an open sim at one time should never exceed 12 people and the object bonus should always remain on 1. If it was set up correctly it would never cause Problems. Linden Labs should have never Allowed the option of raising agent limit above 12 and object bonus above 1 in an open sim.
If you are experiencing problems in your opensim and you have the options set correctly then the problem lies in how the other estate owners have their opensims set up that shares the same processor as yours.
Linden Labs Created this problem by allowing and/or giving the estate owners the ability to over stress the opensim processors. So their sollution is to Blame the estate owners and make us all pay. That is not FAIR.
I own an opensim, I have set it up to not allow over population of agents(avatars) or prims and I experience no lag at all. My residents are very happy and content there. This openspace of mine is being used as light use, I am paying for 1/4th the resources of a full sim and I am not using more than that or allow more than that to be used. The real solution is to enforce this type of openspace behavior with all estate owners by not allowing over population of the sim with agents and/or prims. (take away the ability that allows sim overload)...
If the price increase happens in January then I assume that the openspace pricing was just a ploy to sell openspaces at a low price and increase them once they have a bunch sold. Because the real solution is to limit the opensim estate settings. Increasing the maintance fee is Like a hidden introductory price. This type of marketing ploy is used by cable companies and cellphone providers. A cable company will offer free channels and cheap prices until you are hooked and then jack the price up. Increasing the price will NOT fix the problem if the sims are allowed to remain overloaded.

I have been thinking about this whole mess with the open space sims. What is the difference between 4 open space sims with 3000 prims and textures on one CPU core .. and one full sim with 12,000 prims and textures on one CPU core? Linden Labs wants to charge us 67% more to use what they already sold us .. or cut the number of prims in half .. for the sims they already sold us. What is next .. decide that full sims can only have 7500 prims? The problem is not how the open space sims are being used. The problem is the Linden Labs data servers can not keep up with the volume in SecondLife .. and this has been a problem for as long as I've been in SL and LONG before open space sims. Maybe they should be looking at building UP their infrastructure instead of tearing down ours.

If some one sold me a car and then afterwards came around and tried to take back 2 tires and the steering wheel or charge me 67% more .. I would be calling the police.

heh. This actually cuts to the crux of why people do not *leave* Second Life really for other platforms. There is as of yet no real other options. OpenSim etc and the other service providers/grids are gathering pace but in essence many users are emotionally tied to their *space* in Second Life, their networks, stuff in their inventory and communities. You can perhaps move their space to another grid, but it requires their network and friends to move too really (not to mention items they have purchased and we know those are never going to move out of SL via an inventory shift it would be commercial suicide on LL's part).

The large communities above I think might have the option to migrate as with 700 odd sims between the large community managers (I am not talking land barons here, but they could fall into this category too) they actually have the ability to transact it and push forward development on alternatives.

Merchants (and I am one of them) already offer free copies of products on other trusted grids/service if purchased in Second Life to their customers as we are ramping up ready for our customers to be outside Second Life.

Throw in some of the landscaping/plant artists, fashion stores etc and perhaps in the future there will be migration potential for people if merchants savy up to giving free copies of the initial purchased item on the other trusted spaces. I do it because I want my customers to remain with me, and to continue our relationship regardless of where they may choose to now *virtually* live.

It's chicken and egg of course right now but in essence I do hope the community spaces get a solution. In a really unhappy world right now, the only thing that seems to retain any value - is community.

Hi Jack:

I just read your note on the 67% increase in monthly tier for OpenSpace Sims because they are more heavily used than you originally anticipated. OMG who da thunk it!

A little aside Jack. My wife and I, both premium members, were planning on entering the realestate business and becoming landlords just when SL reduced the cost of a full sim by 59% and introduced open space sims. We decided to wait and see what would happen to landownership of the current landlords. As I thought a lot of land owners found they suddenly had many parcels of vacant land. So we decided not to enter the realestate market. A real good decision on our part.

On October 13, 2008 we bit the bullet and purchased an OpenSpace Sim from a landowner. We built a house and installed vegetation. We have used 64% of the available 3750 prim. Are we considered an abuser of the openspace sim? Not sure anymore.

Hoewever, the 67% increase in monthly tier is much higher to us considering exchange rates plus the premium we have to pay the land owner.

Jack, this is an on-line game. The avitars are not real, their clothing is not real and the land is not real and unless you live inside a bubble, there is a major credit crunch occuring in the real world today. Businesses are closing and many are starting to scream for governments to bail them out.

So here's my arbitrary response to your arbitrary decision:

On December 31, 2008 we will gut our sim and abandon it (our sim owner will probably abandon it as it cost her nothing but time so far) and we will not be renewing our membership in Sl.

Jack, I don't think any government will provide the cash to bail LL out ... its only a virtual reality game.

I would think that estate owners that duped people into "buying" into these openspace regions could be held liable as well, since LL was always upfront about the intended use of these sims and the fact that yes these regions are 1/4 the prims of a full region, but not 1/4 the resources. This is the main reason i myself never started renting them out.

Beware not to post to much here, Linden Lab could take a policy out of their hat that charges you a hourly fee for "over-usage" of the forum.

This is quite correct. And if you paid your phone company $425 to install your phone line, and then payed them $75 per month to have your phone line, you would be possibly a bit pissed off if they contacted you a few months later and told you that your phone line was now going to cost $125 per month and if you didn't like it, you'd be disconnected. Either way your $425 is gone. Oh and in the meantime if you've bought some nice fancy telephones and paid someone to install them in your house, tough luck. And finally, in this analogy, there is no other phone company. Or if there is, their system isn't compatible with the phones you bought. So you're out a lot of money, time, energy, and you have only two options. Pay through the nose every month, or kiss it all goodbye and end up with nothing.

Saying it's like the cost of gas went up is not a good comparison -- unless the car company gets to take your car away if you choose to drive less.

-Atashi

Wrong. They are not 1/4 of full sims. There are 4 per core on a quad core processor. so it is actually 16 openspace sims per cpu.

over-usage of the forum??

The Linden back into their decisions after complaints in this forum?

object bonus make no diff i have them set fro 1 to 4.8 the lag is just as bad in both and some times the ones with 1 are the worst

Way kewl, Charlotte. Can I ask what the other trusted grids are? All this has given me impetus to start exploring them.

ok jackass, but not all of use abuse our sims... so think bout it... before you open your trap...

Typos aside, you don't know the financial condition of anyone here, other than yourself. I'm already paying $370 per month for my "hobby". I'd rather not make it $420, thank you very much. Assuming anyone who owns a sim is "rich" sounds pretty much like sour grapes.

You're telling the landowners to "calm down and cool off a bit". Exactly how much land do YOU own? How much of your hard earned money are you putting into land ownership each month?

I can imagine that after the more intelligent people exit and abandon OpenSpace sims, the remaining OpenSpace sims in use will be by a majority who have a stake in business and are already overloading the OpenSpace sims. Can you now imagine 16 overloaded OpenSpace sims on EVERY host? Even if a few poor souls hang on to their OpenSpace sims, it will still be a very poor ratio of "underloaded" to "overloaded" on a host. Eventually, even those people will tire and finally abandon all OpenSpace sims. I do feel that the demise of OpenSpace sims has been put in motion by Linden Lab!

Anyone have a 1/4 full sim for rent?.... lol

Jack - I am a relative short timer in SL, but have purchased and developed 2 islands and 6 adjacent open space sims at substantial expense. All 6 open space sims have been developed precisely as I think SL intended and the TOS requires - park like land and underwater spaces that serve no purpose other than to create a beautiful environment. No rentals, low lag, take a walk or a boat ride and enjoy the scenery kind of places. They add value to the full sims and do not burden the SL servers in any way. The 'fix' that you have announced will destroy my ability to maintain those sims, and will substantially devalue the full sims as well. The unique area I have been able to create added rental value to the properties being developed on the full sims which will disappear when the open spaces go away - a financial necessity at the new rates you have announced. Many like me who have invested substantial sums of money to develop combinations of full and open space sims in precisely the manner contemplated by us and by Linden Labs will lose all value in those efforts when the price to maintain them becomes unaffordable as you have suggested.
While I agree that it makes sense for Linden Labs to discontinue sales of open space sims as in the past, and to move to a system that prevents the type of abuses you are discussing; it is an exercise of bad faith to deprive those current and compliant property owners of the value of their property. Fair dealing and equity requires that Linden Labs honor the TOS which it implemented and not penalize those who have contributed - in more ways than one - to the positive and unique environment that is SL.

If you feel that Linden Labs has done anything that is unfair to you as a consumer in this situation with the openspace sims here is the link to the Attorney Generals Office in Massachusetts.

I am a fan Microsoft products but I have also received money in a class act suit filed and won by the Massachusetts Attorney Generals office. Microsoft is a big and powerful company and they have made mistakes that have disadvantaged consumers unfairly.


So perhaps it is worth your time to contact them. We could go on and on about this and that but maybe we are just best to post the contact information to the attorney generals offices in our states and let those that can truly evaluate this look into it.



Consumer Complaints
Attorney General’s Office
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108

The Attorney General’s Consumer Hotline, (617) 727-8400, is staffed with trained professionals who will review your complaint and determine whether it is appropriate for a free, voluntary mediation service we provide, or whether to direct you to another government agency or other resource. If the complaint is one we believe we may be able to assist you with, the Consumer Hotline staff will attempt to contact the business or other organization on your behalf to see if the matter can be resolved outside of court.

Jim they are a California Corporation, everyone needs to contact the CA Attorney general.... Here is a repost of their information...

I think there is ONE way to get Linden Labs attention. Please keep reposting this, so that many will see it:

Linden Labs is a California Company. This type of action does come under the California Attorney General's Juristiction as it could be considered Consumer Fraud, according to my attorney.

While Linden Labs does have a TOS... A TOS is simply a contract between two parties. No contract can violate local, state or federal laws. Consumer fraud is illegal and can not be waived as acceptable, just because Linden Labs has a TOS.

If MANY of us contact the California Attorney General, they will investigate. Here is the contact information for the Attorney General's office:

Attorney General's Office
California Department of Justice
Attn: Public Inquiry Unit
P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
(916) 322-3360

I would suggest calling them AND writing them. Please keep the following in mind when you do:

1. Their office is in the same time zone as Linden Labs, they are open from 9:00 am to 5:00pm, Monday through Friday.

2. Be polite. Remember, they are just a fact collector and they are always on the side of the consumer.

3. Be clear and have a talking plan. Most likely, the person you speak to, will not know anything about Second Life, so be prepared to clearly explain how Second Life works and why you believe their actions to be illegal and immoral.

4. Know Linden Labs Contact Information:
Linden Labs, 945 Battery Street, San Francisco, CA 94111

5. Don't fear retialation from Second Life in any way. In California that would be a criminal act. They may not suspend cancel your account, or act in any adverse way against you for attempting to exersize your legal rights.

Good luck everyone.

Well my land lord is hiking the price as of 1st of dec.....hopefully to recoup some of her outlay no doubt.... No solace to me though as the only other option to stay in the community means a hike on what I'm paying now on top of losing what I paid for my OS when I moved in which understandably she cannot aford to recompense.

So my options are 9600 for an OS a week or 7000 for a 1/4 sim when I was paying 6000 before
*no guarantee that the beautiful OS I worked on wont be above and beyond acceptable when the *coughs* useage guideline LL seem to have mislaid finally appears

plus the loss of my deposit 65000 for the OS as its unsalable now leaves quite a bitter taste

So thanks Jack and all your blood sucking cronies, If I decide to stay I'll become one of the migrant masses it seems *lucky I bought that Gypsy girl outfit from Nicky Rees after all.

You are incorrect that people need to contact the California Attorney General only. If you are able to purchase a product from a business in your state your attorney general has jurisdiction as well.

That is by allowing people from Massachusetts to sign up for accounts and buy goods from from a location within Massachusetts requires Linden Labs to abide by the laws of Massachusetts. Same with all other states they do business in. Same goes with countries hence that VAT

Which is why I want to know also since I have 4 open space sims, theoretically on the same server, why i am paying more for that server ?

Why are there no specific statistics if an open space cannot handle 1/4 of a full sims resources ?

And when exactly are they going to start doing FREE re-combining to 1 sim ?

I am watching many major investors prepare to pull out and invest in other grids. As far as I see, only the barons who hold major holdings in private estates may stand to gain. Mainland certainly will not.

I am already seeing an unsteadiness in the economy and sales since this annoucement, People are debating on staying or whether to leave invest in new grids.

Either way its already having a large impact on an already stressed economy due to the rl global situation.

This is a Class 5 server (from the officail blog in 2006)

So, here’s what’s different under the hood: we’ve been all-AMD for years, but are moving from the Opteron 270 to the Intel Xeon 5148 - a low-power version of Intel’s new Core 2 Duo based server CPUs. This gives us better performance for fewer watts, while supporting our standard 64-bit OS image. We’ve also doubled the RAM per machine from 2GB to 4GB and moved to a faster SATA disk, which usually won’t make much of a difference, but should reduce the stalls sometimes seen by heavy regions during autosaves. Finally, there are fewer, bigger system fans, and power supply efficiency goes from 67% to 84%; power usage while running the sim process is about 175 watts, vs. 230 for a Class 4.


I seriously doubt a Core 2 Duo with 4 gigs of ram and a single SATA hard drive (no Raid even!) cost 50 - 125,000 $ . The Bandwith of the T3 connections are what cost the big bucks... not the hardware, thats peanuts.

I partially agree with you.

Although I do hope they would reconsider about the grandfathering and make the new rules effecitive per today instead of januari, to prevent people abusing the lower rate.

They are also registered for trading in the UK.

In the UK, http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/ , whatever a company says in their TOS or contracts, it does not and cannot limit or affect your statutory rights as a consumer, which are enshrined in law. So British customers may have some recourse, dunno. Consumer rights in the UK are more advanced than they are in North America. In any event, regardless of how far it goes, the Trading Standards office in UK would quite likely listen to people at the least:

"From overcharging to faulty goods or dodgy workmanship and from energy supply to postal problems, our advisers are ready to offer solutions for individual problems. We offer help and advice to every single consumer in Great Britain (regardless of age, gender, social background or ethnic group) who is buying or has bought goods or services. You can contact us by telephone or email."

Information on how to contact them is here:

http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/about/how-we-help/

It's very hard for me to describe my anger at this. Fortunately I only own one open space, but it's used only to link two full regions. It's open ocean with an island, and a few prims on it. Soon, with I'm sure (knowing how much LL cares) no reimbursement from LL, I'll have to abandon it.

In short, I bought it in good faith, used it for its designed purpose, and I'm being punished. I'm not a big landowner, or a businessperson. I run a roleplay sim for people to have fun. I've also been part of SL for over four years. All of that will likely come to an end unless something is done here. I can't afford to wait for the next shoe to drop.

Diddo, I'm as addicted as anyone else to SL it's like were Junkies and they (Linden Labs) are the dealer, reduce pricing and wait for the demand to go up then BAM raise the prices. As of 12-31-08 I will abandon my OS Sim and become a none paying resident of second life. Such a shame when greed becomes more important than the dream.