Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

So if LL is saying we CAN use them for other purposes they're sayin it's our choice how we use them. As long as I stay under the prim limit (which I can't exceed anyway) I'm withing my rights.

There's a difference between a recommendation and a contractual, mutually agreed upon rule. There's an implied contract involved here. If I sell you a car with no limitations on it's usage but make a recommendation on how you "should" use it I really have no right to complain about what you use it for later.

They could have been very specific on the covenants but they weren't. In my view, having 1/4 of the prims IS light use no matter what you use it for. A contract has been broken here and it wasn't by the OS owners. I bought something from them after reading THEIR specifications and now they're changing those AND bumping the price way up.

At the very least they could compensate me for giving up the half of a server I'll be freeing up when I abandon my land like thousands of other people will be doing. Give me the opportunity to trade my 2 OS islands in on a regular sim at a reduced price.

They could at least make SOME effort to be fair about this rather than just TELL us what they're going to do to us.

To those of you cheering this change on I hope you keep that dry wit and cheerful disposition when they do something like this to you. How about if they suddenly raise the tier on ALL land 66% after you have hundreds or thousands of hours of work invested in your property along with the money you've been shelling out?

Exactly....i was eluding to the word "CAN" So I guess we can ....yaaaaay

Aloha,
I do not own any OS, but I do know people that do. With the way the economy is going in RL its getting harder to be able to put money into non essential things. What good is it to raise the prices if you loose your customer base? You can make more money per sim but if no one can afford to buy it, it just sets and becomes a money loss.
If you keep prices current you can continue to attract customers. But its your company, you can do with it as you will. Just remember that if you start to loose customers to other virtual venues.

Thats my .02 cents worth

Gucissa

I see so many post from people that realy do not have a clue here. This is a real shame that so many just can not see the impact on Second Life all this has created now, and for the future. It has been claimed many times this is not a performance issue, atleast to the effect that it cant be proven that it is one. Openspace, Full Sim, or mainland, LAG caused by the missuse and total lack of understanding of residents script useage is what really needs to be addressed here. Not to mention campers!!! I do not use campers to drive traffic to any of my sims and i refuse to support any sim owner who chooses to use them to do it. It behoves me why camping is even allowed here, why in hell do you want useless avatars on your sim? they hog up resorces not only on your sim but the whole grid! The next couple months should be used for a clean up SL campaign, with Linden being at the forefront of this and cleaning up the mainland of all the unsightly whatever the hell it is crap that is there. Estate owners and managers should spend a few minutes minimum of their day per sim owned and look at what is really there, and get rid off the issues that are causing all this. I still believe that a openspace sim can house many homes and residents on them, but to use one to have a club just eludes me. Then you have people that also have no damn clue how to build a lag free club, either it be on a full sim or open they still choose to load it up with scripted objects and expect people to want to be there? This is madness, anyone can just go buy whatever it is they want and place it, wear it, stick it up there a**, whatever your chioce, but how about being proactive to the greater cause and learn what the impact of that item is on the big picture while you are doing it. Anyways i could realy go on for days with all i see in SL thats causing lag and although i own 9 openspace sims i am not nieve to what does and dont cause lag on them.
*** One more thing, IMO, SAY NO TO TEMP REZZERS ON ANY SIM YOU OWN!!!

I just have 2 L$ to place from observances. Our region of sims has more than the normal share of lawyers and they are having a hayday looking at this. Not a good sign for the Lindens.

I also have heard a rumor (these things are always rumors) that the Lindens are getting their house in order to go public on the stock exchange. If this is true, it could be an interesting angle.

What would be humorous is if all the residents bought up the stock if that happened. Would change the politics in situations like this.


Just a thought.

The "camper" issue is an easy fix. Quit using traffic as a determining factor in the search ranking. POOF, campers gone.

They aren't upgrading anything?

Is the moon blue on your planet?

Wow! Magne, you really have no clue! There are limits set on OS sims, the ONLY thing that LL doesn't have under control is the script time limit which is causing nearly all the problems THEY are having. Putting this limit in place will solve issues without putting OS owners deeper in dept. I have never made a profit, thus far, on any of my sims so it is certainly NOT greed on my part. Paying an extra $50 US per month on a sim that is already 'out of pocket' for me is simply insane! I do not rent out my OS sims, they are for residents to play on. I have one small store on each one that only has a few vendors on it relative to the theme of those sims. As you know, affiliate vendors only pay a percentage. So, it's not like I'm raking in the cash with them, they are merely a convenience for the RPers while they are exploring the sim.

In all fairness the cost of an open space sim OUGHT to be relative to it's allowable usage compared to to full sim. 1/4 the allowable use OUGHT to have an equal 1/4 the price. This is good business sense NO MATTER what they are being used for! Whether it is for rental space or for water or forest areas. Prim is prim and it shouldn't matter to LL what type of prim is being used by the people who PAY the bill! For those who have made profit...more power to you! It's not like you're taking money out of Linden pockets in doing so, just making this simulation a more enjoyable place! It's just a game of pixels and profit and LL has the high score!

And Magne, pay attention! Upgrades? No upgrades are planned for these OS sims to cover the extra charge, in fact the opposite is true, the plan is to charge us more for OS and then go through each OS and inform the OS owner what they have to do to lower the OS usage to make them stable, yet still charging us more money even after we comply!

Well we can expect more sneaky changes as LL has to cover itself against lawsuits and public opinion. I am quit sure there are enough people around who have saved the versions that were on before and then this chnaging will work against LL even more in court and public opinion.

The best of course LL saying their self overused openspaces where not real openspaces but showing as openspaces. They quickly changed them. Luckely someone had a snapshot of the statistics windows, showing it was an openspace. Just one of the lies caught.

It's obvious, to my opinion, LL is preparing the end of the world.

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There are lots of alternatives and competitors out there. SL is not the only game in town. Let's all exodus.

OpenLife http://openlifegrid.com/ is an open source community. It is for the people by the people. More inline with democracy.

im just happy snowflake seems to be gone!

what concerns me most is this....
Linen labs had a few open space sims that they were using themselves, basically as heavy as the kind of over load they are accusing us of doing...some one on this thread reported it, the link was handed out and lots of people went over and had a look, it was a shock to see lindens had such double standars, a day later, they changed it from open space to full sim, that in my book is totaly deceiptfull.... and now apparently they have changed the text in "open space sim info" they are imoral, and have aboslutly zero rules or ethics here... we dont have a hope in hell.. the only way out of this, is out! i have 12 islands.. 9 are open space, if they enforce this price increase im outie! not becuase the pice is to high, but beucase we are dealing with a company that are dishonest and they have no consequense to their imoraly.. they can do what they like, when they like and they know that even if they lose a lot of people, they will keep lots and still get in more.. linden labs will, i hope lose the best content places on the grid.. i for one am more prepared to throw away every thing ive put in, out of principle, this is extortion, and id rater dump all my sims then allow them to get away with this theft.

I wont pay one linden to a company that can get away with moving the goal posts when ever they like.. If this goes through, then whose to say whats next.. raise the tier on the full sims too? why not, they can do what they like.. then its Good by to the kaiya islands and the amazing comunity i have built in the last two years.. but if this goes through, thats the end of me on sl!

I have not read all of the above posts; however, I have read enough to formulate my views on this matter.

First, LL must acknowledge that some of us ARE, in fact, operating open sims (OS) consistent with the original intent. In my case, for instance, I joined with three others and together we now have six sims, four of which are OS. Together these 4 OS form a large lake dotted with islands. The open water is used for sailing, canoeing, swimming, fishing, and occasionally racing motorcycles on the lake bottom (LOL).

With the proposed increase in OS tier fees, I will no longer be able to afford the RL costs and will be forced to pull out of the consortium. Not sure what my partners will do yet, but as a minimum this means that one of the OS will be abandoned. Not only will I be out the $250 purchase price, but I will leave SL with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Now for the BIGGER IMPACT - PAY CLOSE ATTENTION, LL... this affects you!!

I am a member of a RL group of U.S. federal government officials who are considering how virtual worlds can be used to advance RL missions. This capricious move by LL makes me doubt not the technology of SL, but the governance by LL. To be fully useful, these technologies must be administered by thoughtful and predictable organizations. Please show us that you - LL - are able to make wise choices and deal with problems like this in a more thoughtful and creative manner.

In short, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If there are individuals or groups who have been abusing OS, then deal head on with that issue. Don't simply abandon what was a good and useful idea because of the behavior of a few abusive folks.

My Partner and I just buy a land on mainland for less to open a shop to hold our OSS, we will see what will happen.

its not for profit, only to finance the OSS. and Kit is a genius builder )
i am sure it will work.

maybe we can finance a full sim when we work hard enough.

The sim scheduler doesn't work that way. Scripts are very rarely the problem on OpenSpaces--rather, they're the canary in the coal mine. If any other part of the sim execution frame is demanding too much time, available script time reduces, sometimes very dramatically. (Scripts, however, can cause the other parts of the frame to lag--if they do elaborate physics, for example, or rez stuff.)

But it's all even messier than that. What's happening local to the sim, or on the sims sharing a core, is just part of the problem. What demand they place on the back end services and networks is another whole can of worms--and the part I think LL most "misunderestimated" before scaling up OpenSpaces to such a huge share of the grid.

Unfortunately, LL hasn't shared any of the detailed grid performance data, at least not AFAIK, so it's just their word that OpenSpaces are contributing disproportionately to that back end demand. We know of a recent discovery that should have a noticeable benefit to all sims across the board, but I don't know of any magic (yet?) for reducing the relative impact of OpenSpaces.

The idea that Lindens can offer open sims with 3550 prims, allow thousands of people to buy them and use them for all manner of purposes, and then after selling thousands of these sims, suddenly say oh deary me we don't want people using these sims for purposes that require them to have 3550 prims on the sim so we are gonna hike up the price by 66% along with the rent to those who have already purchased them, is quite frankly rediculous.

It's like selling a car that has 4 doors and seats for 5 people, and selling thousands of them, then saying oh no, you shouldn't be driving them with 5 people in them, so we are gonna send everyone who has bought one of our cars another bill for some more money to penalise you for having 5 people in your car!

Your proposals to raise the tier for everyone by 66% are grossly unfair should they be implemented.

Furthermore, the idea that it is acceptable to make such a huge hike in price in one go is just crazy. I currently own a full private sim and an open space sim. I had been planning to buy lots more of both types of sims from you in the near future. If you go ahead with this proposal, it will mean that I can no longer have faith in you to do business in a sensible and acceptable manner and I will be purchasing no more land from Lindens. It will be the death of my involvement with Second Life.

If you are committed to a tier increase of some kind raise the number of prim to 5000, lower the number of openspaces per server to three, raise the tier to $100 to cover an upgrade so they can tolerate traffic and scripts better and sell them yourself for $340 each to prevent any more fraud. To finish the job warn the owners who have been lying to residents to*sell* openspaces or rent them as if they were regular private regions for regular use and jacked up rents that the next time they are caught land scamming the rl person, group or company will be banned - permanently.

Most residents have done nothing but want a 65,536 sqm canvas to paint on they shouldn't be punished for that. It's time to put an end to the rein of the land scammers -and to show once and for all that LL itself is not one.

Hello Jack,,I have been thinking since the post ll made about the change.Here is an idea that might help and keep lots of the players happy with in sl.Not everyone should suffer because of the ones doing wrong.

Ok,,I think Linden Lab should make a program to Monitor the os sims.This way Traffic can be watched and the use of it as well.Set it to what LL thinks is the right Traffic for a home use.If that Traffic goes over then A message be sent to LL and they can look into that OS and if it is being used for other then what it is to be used for then a message can be sent to that Estate owner for a warning.And if he or she is not willing to make it right or change it then an extra Fee should be charged to them for that abuse till they do make it right.This way not everyone has to suffer.For there is alot inside SL that are useing the OS sims for just homes.This will keep everything going in the order it is to go in.

Just an idea,I hope this helps on the new Change.I support The Lab all the way but I also have to think of the land owners that are living on an OS Sim.

Don't worry, Even though the Lindens removed your threats of physical harm to me, I have the screenshots and have forwarded them to the appropriate entities.

Words of vision indeed; referring of course to the 'Just Ignore this and Let it Die' thread in the Resident Answers Forum, now enjoying it's 203rd day and 39659th reply (at least that's what it was last time I looked..bout 30 seconds ago).

Interesting to consider the statistics regarding this thread. Born 5 days ago and already 3375 replies. That's 674 replies a day, that's more than 3 times the daily reply rate of 'Let it Die' currently 195. At this rate Kat's thread will overhaul the 'Let it Die' thread in about 2 months..just in time for the Open Space changes to take effect.

So it's hats off to Kat Linden for starting possibly the longest thread in the Universe..and a firm kick up the butt to Linden Labs for making it all possible.

Perre..

Snow, why u are interessted in OSS, all what u are typing shows your a child, and on the main grid childs arent allowed.

huggs
anny

I am interested in the community as a whole. What affects the community affects me.

Any further threats of physical violence will be captured and forwarded to law enforcement.

I have one full sim Menorca and just under 4 weeks ago I changed my other sim into 4 open space sims.

Yes, I have taken the VAT increase ( albeit in horror at how that was announced and implemented) and many other issues of course over the three years I have had my islands, but I have truly for the first time absolutely lost my enthusiasm and passion for using SL..
I have talked with many friends who have spent their RL earnings to acquire open space sims purely for aesthetic reasons to enhance the island/s they have already and who regard SL as their main choice of entertainment/hobby/passion etc. These friends are now upwards of 1000 dollars and up out of pocket, just handed to LL on a plate. I only did a conversion to 4 sims so not a huge undertaking but with a price increase of 67% on each OS island.. yep.. I am out of it.

All I can really say is that Linden Labs has at last broken the trust and confidence I have had in this most wonderfully creative platform for the last 3 years.Unfortunately the company seems to have No clue on dealing with its ever growing paying customer base.

Whilst I do appreciate that Jack is the main spokesperson for Concierge and the decision to increase the price did not come from him alone, this thread is not a discussion in the sense that it is NOT a discussion with LL or Jack.. it is merely a rant room.. I run the SL Music Community Forum and we have a rant room too... great for blowing off steam but little else.
Everyone here has jumped in with ( and rightly so) their own conclusions about Why, When, Who, What, but in actual fact there has been NO response from LL through Jack, that says ANYTHING at all of any consequence. When a issue/monetary concern of this size rears its ugly head I DO expect a Prompt reply from the company that I pay my money too. I don't care if its a game, a hobby, a bathroom fitter, a new car, whatever it may be that I am paying for I expect a DAMN site faster and better reply than 'Thanks for all your feedback'.


I am disgusted, cross, very saddened and with still No satisfactory response from any Linden on the blog/forum anywhere it is very doubtful that I shall be singing the praises of a company that is not capable of the basics of courtesy or communication or managing its customer base with any respect.

It seem this forum is the only place you are interested in, over 200 post to this one alone in just the past few days? Where do you find the time to even be in world anymore? Seriously Iam not trying to attack you but most of the post you have made are just useless replys back to people "attaking" you. Wonder why they are attacking you? Simple, read back at your post the answer is in them. How about taking it down a notch? Breathe for a minute and go enjoy the so called community that affects you.