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Weekend Grid Outages

Dytska Vieria
+/- .00004™
Join date: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 768
01-19-2009 15:03
From: JubJub Forder
And for those saying "ban the bots"... bots have very little impact on a database


But, using Traffic Bots defeats the purpose of providing something good and worthwhile in SL on the parcel the Bots occupy. Artificially boosting the traffic with Bots is in some ways admitting that whatever the service or product is just sucks in the first place and that if people were really interested in that service or product, traffic would be good without the Bots because you already have Paying Customers buying your Stuff or patrons enjoying whatever it is you provide.
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+/- 0.00004
MenuBar Memorial
WaterMoon Artist
Join date: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 214
I Walk a Fine Line - by Johnny Crash
01-19-2009 15:04
(sings)
I keep a close watch on this grid of mine.
I keep my inventory open all the time.
I keep my eyes out for crashy ban lines.
Because I mind, I walk the line.

Ommmmmmmmm...

I find a very, very easy thing to do,
Is clear my cache & trash when the day is through.
Yes, I'll admit that I'm a fool for youuuu...
Because I mind, I walk the line.

ditty-dum, ditty-dum, ditty-dum, ditty-dum.

As sure as night is dark and day is light,
I keep it on my mind both day and night,
The OS prices prove that some of you were right,
Because I mind, I walk the line.

uhmmmmmmmm...

You've got a way to keep me on your side,
You tell me you're not really trying to hide,
From forum comments that turn out to be snide.
Because I mind, I walk the line.

hmmmmm (I hum between stanzas to get in key)...

I keep a close watch on this sim of mine.
I keep the bots off most of all the time.
I keep on telling myself Second Life is fine.
Because I mind, I walk the line.

(crowd of imprisoned bots applaud deafeningly as Johnny Crash leaves the stage holding his finger in the air)
Darcie55 Kraus
Registered User
Join date: 4 Aug 2008
Posts: 8
01-19-2009 15:04
From: Sim Myoo
I bet 30,000 of those are bots. I went to a place the other day and they had 95 bots in a 10x10 box.


Ok I admit it I'm a noob, how do you know they are bots and what is the purpose of them? Wouldn't it help if there would be somekind of "right click --> report bot" boot! option?

My humble question from a noob.
JubJub Forder
Registered User
Join date: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 80
01-19-2009 15:04
From: Gordon Wendt
JubJub, you're right about them having very little impact but one way they could make them have an either smaller impact would be to implement a flag that a client could send at login that would tell the server that they are talking to a non visual client so not to send any textures or visual data. This wouldn't be a bot flag since a lot of people connect and are active through non visual clients but this would not only reduce server work but it would also be much lower data transfer since there would no need for visual data being sent back and forth.


Now thats a great idea Gordon :) ... bet it would save LL some data costs... however it doesn't address this problem - this is one of database queries causing the database to bork.

The core problem with bots is how to define one... is it a person on a camp/dance pad who has walked away to make coffee? or a bot?
Gordon Wendt
404 - User not found
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 1,024
01-19-2009 15:05
From: Brielle Coronet
why is it all my friends seem to be able to log in when logins are disabled and I never can! I have a club and we pay lots of lindens for performers, will LL give a refund when our business is affected (and our bank accounts)?


You probably already know this but the answer to you're question is no. My suggestion is just keep retrying to login because that seems to work, except when the grid actually goes down when the Linden says they're restricting logins it seems to be sporadic so if you try enough times you'll end up eventually getting in.
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Candi Clawtooth
Registered User
Join date: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 1
hmmmm
01-19-2009 15:06
Raised prices and now THIS!? WHAT THE HECK ARE WE DOING? PAYIN TO BE LOGGED OUT? *grumbles* Im gettin tired of not bein able to login..........

sheesh, I know yall are tryin but jeeezz this is totally bothersome.
Kittrannia Cassini
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 18
For once answer a simple question
01-19-2009 15:06
Why do you at Linden Labs NEVER answer the most common questions?

Do you have ANYTHING planned to change the way traffic is calculated....and you know what I'm getting at.

So sick and tired of you lot patting yourselves on the back when quoting meaningless concurrency figures.
Phoynix Jennings
Registered User
Join date: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 2
"login's disabled "
01-19-2009 15:09
WTF this is getting so stupid, how is any body suppose to enjoy second life if this keeps fucking happening. I am getting to the point where i want to delete my account. Cuz I am getting so fucking sick of this shit. Why can linden labs get this system more stable ?. How hard can it really be to keep at grid online. i have been here almost a year, and this is the most trouble i have had. Get it right for christ sakes !!!!! Or more like me are gonna want to leave sl, cuz they can never play !!!!. Or maybe instead of having half the grid working, since obviously it is not strong enough to run sl, put the whole grid up !!!!. BTW this is the third god damn time today this has happened to me !!!. FIX IT, FIX IT, FIX IT, FIX IT, FIX IT, FIX IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dormilona Demina
Registered User
Join date: 1 Dec 2008
Posts: 2
unable to withdraw cash from SL Account
01-19-2009 15:18
Actually this hasnt been mentioned at all and its concerning me deeply-
Whats going on with Buying/Selling Lindens and withdrawing US$ from your account?
Is all that side unaffected?
This isnt mentioned in the grid Status page, yet it seems theres some problem with withdrawing- at the point of confirming your withdrawal you get sent to the Grid Status page- very unnerving when you dont know if the request went through or not or maybe just got eaten up... especially when you try to check your account balance afterwards you get sent to...the Grid Status page again-anyone else getting this?
Argus Collingwood
Totally Tintable
Join date: 5 Dec 2005
Posts: 600
01-19-2009 15:20
From: MenuBar Memorial
(sings)
I keep a close watch on this grid of mine.
I keep my inventory open all the time.
I keep my eyes out for crashy ban lines.
Because I mind, I walk the line.

Ommmmmmmmm...

I find a very, very easy thing to do,
Is clear my cache & trash when the day is through.
Yes, I'll admit that I'm a fool for youuuu...
Because I mind, I walk the line.

ditty-dum, ditty-dum, ditty-dum, ditty-dum.

As sure as night is dark and day is light,
I keep it on my mind both day and night,
The OS prices prove that some of you were right,
Because I mind, I walk the line.

uhmmmmmmmm...

You've got a way to keep me on your side,
You tell me you're not really trying to hide,
From forum comments that turn out to be snide.
Because I mind, I walk the line.

hmmmmm (I hum between stanzas to get in key)...

I keep a close watch on this sim of mine.
I keep the bots off most of all the time.
I keep on telling myself Second Life is fine.
Because I mind, I walk the line.

(crowd of imprisoned bots applaud deafeningly as Johnny Crash leaves the stage holding his finger in the air)


*stands and claps wildly!! Record and YouTube is ASAP~~!
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Argus-eyed = carefully observant or attentive; on the lookout for possible danger

Gordon Wendt
404 - User not found
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 1,024
01-19-2009 15:21
From: Dormilona Demina
Actually this hasnt been mentioned at all and its concerning me deeply-
Whats going on with Buying/Selling Lindens and withdrawing US$ from your account?
Is all that side unaffected?
This isnt mentioned in the grid Status page, yet it seems theres some problem with withdrawing- at the point of confirming your withdrawal you get sent to the Grid Status page- very unnerving when you dont know if the request went through or not or maybe just got eaten up... especially when you try to check your account balance afterwards you get sent to...the Grid Status page again-anyone else getting this?


I was and even worse I was logged into the forums just fine but each time after being forwarded from the accounts page to grid status it was asking me to log in as well and saying I wasn't logged in despite letting me simultaneously post on the forums. Also interesting is the way that they're forwarding doesn't show up as a new page according to your browser history so it preserves the forward/back history making it harder to back out of and retry.
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Leonardo Zimring
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2008
Posts: 70
??
01-19-2009 15:43
I'm baffled: are there people here claiming that SL has a filter that lets in non-paying accounts while excluding Premium accounts? Tell me, because I am breathless to know, has LL also set up a system so that they can spy into Premium-account houses to see you crying at not being able to log-in, while you tear your dollar bills like lettuce?

Sheesh! The kind of crap people seem able to believe is truly terrifying!


And if the problem is queries to the database then of course the issues will come when there are high log-in numbers, since the queries will increase even more sharply. F.J. Linden did not say that the problems did not correlate with high concurrency, he said that it was not directly caused by high concurrency.

The problem is not primarily bots or alts (I mean you are kidding, right?), it is people in SL doing stuff!. And who wants to stop that?
Darien Caldwell
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
01-19-2009 15:45
A Django ate my baby. :D
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Crim Mip
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 1
So Limit Logins
01-19-2009 15:45
Seriously, the system obviously can't handle more than 70k concurrent log-ins (65k is probably where I'd set the limit). That's fine. I know you're all trying to fix things so that isn't an issue.

Meanwhile, How about a login setup where people get put in a wait line when the limit is reached. I'd rather wait 30mins or an hour and get a stable experience than the continuous and random crashes I get now whenever the DB is overloaded.

Furthermore, maybe paid accounts should move to the head of the line. We believe enough to pay to be here even if we don't really have to. I'd even be ok with new accounts getting even higher priority since they are where the new paid accounts are most likely to come from. If somebody has been here more than a couple of weeks though, they should wait with the rest.
MBob Turbo
Registered User
Join date: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 10
SL Problems
01-19-2009 15:46
Having to give up a island ..

Can't handle both the economy problems and SL problems ...

Can't stay online .. Customers can't stay online ...

But yet .. we are expected to pay our island fees ..

Losing too much money each month ...

Going to TRY to keep our 2nd island .. but if LL can't fix these problems .. no promises there.
Torri Merlin
Registered User
Join date: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1
My two cents on this one
01-19-2009 15:53
From: Nerolus Mosienko
I pay 300.00 a month for a private estate (and not easily...), and I know many people who pay more. Why can't the people that pay this insane amount of money to be a part of Second Life be allowed in before bots and non-paying members of SL? That seems only fair.

Usually the people that pay monthly voice themselves about Second Life on the internet much more than the non-paying members. Good for publicity, and good for just all around fairness.



As a non-paying member i PAY 40 US to live on my Island. I have myself and my alts (only one in sl at a time) to keep in the newest skin, clothes, hair and shoes. I'm a huge consumer of what all you wonderful creators make and easily drop 100 US or more monthy on "stuff". And i dont think i'm alone....We shopaholics are what keep SL business alive and it wouldnt do at all to give paying members login advantage over people like me. I know you are frustrated but keeping us non payers out wont solve the problem....now about those bots...do they come in male and work as cabana boys??? :-)
Micheil Merlin
Registered User
Join date: 3 Mar 2007
Posts: 32
01-19-2009 16:02
For the purpose of giving login preference, the current premium/versus non-premium setup doesn't allow quick determination regarding who is spending money. Maybe you need something like a 'frequent linden buyer' status. But even that might be a problem as not all people buy lindens through LL. They pass them back and forth.

Anyway, I'd rather just have the problem fixed.
Astarte Artaud
Registered User
Join date: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 116
Concurrency not related ?????
01-19-2009 16:06
From: FJ Linden
Hi, I wanted to get a quick update before afternoon meetings. We have a daily grid status call kicking off shortly. Just to respond to a few questions, peak concurrency is not necessarily the main contributor to our current issues. We've actually crossed well over 80K already. Right now its the number of queries hitting the database, and the structure of those queries.

Ok Frank.
I know you keep insisting that the concurrency figure has no bearing on the continuing database woes. I agree the actual level of logins should have no decernable effect other than loading of inventories. However as a layperson on database issues, I would assume, and have been told by several DB managers in the past that in most cases the number of users logged in is proportionate to the demand on the database, (unless they all happen to be camping bots on pads / chairs that do not autoeject. In those cases yes they are dormant and have little effect on the database, except that I now pull up the map if looking for somewhere to go and automatically avoid areas with more than 20 "agents", where when I arrive it is like visiting a mausoleum in a silent movie). if they get booted, then yes there is the coding for them to query the database to find another free slot somewhere.
mmmmm....I seem to have strayed a bit there, back to concurrency, the more people online the more likelyhood that they will be generating database queries, whether it be through Linden transactions, TPs, inventory, building, or physical interaction. If you have figures that I can see to substanciate your claims that concurrency has no relation to database failure I'll shut up about the whole thing. But I am sat here at times watching the concurrency figure rising to a level above 65k usually, then seeing the steady demise of the database servers. Without detailed analysis, which I assume you are doing, I cannot accept you telling me that the link between the high concurrency figure and database failure is unrelated I agree it may not be the sole reason for database failure, but is definitely a contributing factor.
Kay Douglas
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 41
01-19-2009 16:25
* Why there is no system facilitating the deletion of the doubloons of the inventories (object textures...). Many persons have concerns to sort out their inventory and often have objects triples the same objects full perms...

* For the European, Linden Lab has you they installed a European network infrastructure (or Japan, Coree...) to low balancing for europeans user and decreased the network latencies (ping...) ?

* For the Second Life Viewer the protocol is UDP is faster than TCP but not forcing adapted for the volume than TCP ? For exemple texture loading...

* For the debugging why don't used Coverity http://scan.coverity.com/, it's a solution for example Tor used this to debugging and correct the application bug http://www.torproject.org/index.html.en

Grid Stability (International grid network) --> Yes We Can !
Leonardo Zimring
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2008
Posts: 70
01-19-2009 16:25
From: Astarte Artaud
Ok Frank.
I cannot accept you telling me that the link between the high concurrency figure and database failure is unrelated I agree it may not be the sole reason for database failure, but is definitely a contributing factor.



He did not say that it is unrelated. He said that it is "not necessarily the main contributor". It can be and obviously is correlated to concurrency.
Velvet Mannonen
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2008
Posts: 1
Maybe Limit Free Accounts
01-19-2009 16:28
I would guess a lot of people have had more than 1 avatar, but when people need more than 5 shouldn't LL ask why?

Why not charge people 10$ per new account, once they have had 5 free ones? Advantages could be:-

1. Would be hard for Camping Bots to recoup that outlay and possibly wouldn't bother.
2. Profitable for LL (maybe keeping members costs down in the future).
3. A griefer might think twice about their actions when he has to start paying 10$ to create new accounts. Also if a griefer behaves, there is less work for the AR team to do.

Obviously this doesn't correct current SL issues, but might be prevention for the future and limit the creation of future camping bots.
Vivianne Draper
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,157
01-19-2009 16:33
You know what? I don't care. All that info is really great but I just don't care. Because its been 4 years. I've been in SL for four years and the service has gotten steadily worse. So its really great that its been problem free for a few months but that doesn't get you a buy for the horribleness that was this weekend and it doesn't excuse that the last few months that were, although *mostly* stable, still weren't *completely* stable and really that mostly is not all that great either but just way better than you were in the past. SL has been around for 6 years. When do you start have to delivering actual reliable service? When does "hey we didn't go down for a whole 48 hours!" become your mantra of success? Becuase for any other type of IT service, that's a really rotten benchmark.
FJ Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 8
01-19-2009 17:05
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I wanted address a couple more questions that seem to be recurring. First, we are looking at the affect of bots on our load. Right now there is no immediate indication that bots are a major contributor of load, but we if we find bots that are especially bad, we'll deal with them.

Status updates need to be more comprehensive and timely, agreed. Some of the delivery issues are tied with our blog service provider, but our content also needs to be better. Operations and Support are working on better messaging.

We are looking to upgrade our current version of mySQL to a more stable release that contains at least one patch which we believe will help efficiency with high query loads. Its not a full version upgrade so could happen much more quickly (as in the next 1-2 weeks).

Hardware is not the current issue, as was the case last April. We are not CPU or IO bound, so throwing more hardware at the problem will not relieve it (this was one of the first things we looked into).

Our longer term strategy could, in fact, be a replacement of mySQL. This would, obviously, be a major undertaking, but if it is the best way to achieve scale and stability we will pursue it. However, much more analysis needs to be done before making that commitment and it is clear that we have not yet done everything possible to properly manage queries, distribute load, and tune mySQL to operate at its highest performance level.
AWM Mars
Scarey Dude :¬)
Join date: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,398
01-19-2009 17:05
This isnt a new issue... there seemed to be a ceiling reached at 25k users, stretched to 50k users after upgrading, now its 75k users? The trend is writing on the wall.

I have to wonder why, with the millions of dollars generated by SL, only open source database systems are considered? Because they are the best? Because they are free? Because so many talented ppls contribute therefore lessening the development costs? What happens at the next flood of account sign ups?

You have to think lateraly... advertising this environment as a educational, business platform, requires account retention, that requires stability, oh and security, we can't keep on loosing our 'stuff'.

I applaude the 'openess' to the situation...
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Fnordian Link
Registered User
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 20
01-19-2009 17:15
From: Viktoria Dovgal
Not a fix, but a sort-of-workaround I use for that:

Find three or four other objects in the area, each with a tiny bit of inventory (just some random thing with a script in it will work, even your hair etc.) With the contents tab still open, if you select a few other items in turn, then go back to the one with the giant inventory, that seems to flush things out so that the contents of actual interest reload a lot faster.


Thank you for your reply, Viktoria. :) I will try your specific suggestion and will take note of the effect. I have, at times, switched between the large inventory object and other objects and haven't noticed much change but I don't believe I tried selecting three or four in turn so I will try that.

Other things that sometime work include closing and re-oopening the object or taking and re-rezzing its. However these aren't reliable and at times nothing seems to make a difference.
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