'Bigger plots of course could go to auction directly, but i would still rather see a 'closed' auction phase, where people who own land elsewhere in the sim could bid with/against eachother first, before it opened up widely, though that may be asking too much i guess.'
would this happen in RL?
no it wouldn't, so total bullshit.
u can't tell residents from outside Amsterdam, that residents from amsterdam have more rights than you do.
'but surely banlines keep off the bots'
bots can detect ban lines, but can also buy land from a distance of 250 meters, because they can't see.
bots are program without a grafical interface.
'Lower land price, but maybe you have to walk a few minutes to the town, or pay for public transportation or for TP.'
no, sh*t, if u need to be on a other sim far away, u would be walking for hours.
'but perhaps tagging each region on each continent on the map with a predominant language spoken '
NO, the goal in the RL world is the have no borders at all and a 'GLOBAL HIGHWAY' is being planned.
we need to look @ the future and learn from the past, the world is property of every soul on earth.
no discrimination again, ever.
Advertisers Guildline, YES.
a LL figure 'type of marshal' to evalute a landprices if people report a 16sqm (for example) for price abuse, 9,999L$ for 16sqm.
that LL marshal should remove the 'land for sale' flag and set it back to land 'not for sale'.
over and over if nessary, till the owner of that 16sqm gets discouraged about setting it back for sale all the time at a **** high price.
i think there hould also be a minimumsize of 512 since the beginning, than noone would need 16sqm plot for to reach the max tier fee.
(because land fee start @ 512, not at 16sqm or make a new tier system and pay for every SQM owned by someone).
i have 2 plots on mainland the they both are surrounded by add farms, directly next to my plots.
i think many of your opinions are way to orthodox and selfish.
please be more liberal and understanding.
thank u.
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Feedback on the Mainland |
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Demon Lilliehook
Registered User
Join date: 8 May 2007
Posts: 25
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08-07-2008 04:14
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Demon Lilliehook
Registered User
Join date: 8 May 2007
Posts: 25
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08-07-2008 04:15
'Bigger plots of course could go to auction directly, but i would still rather see a 'closed' auction phase, where people who own land elsewhere in the sim could bid with/against eachother first, before it opened up widely, though that may be asking too much i guess.'
would this happen in RL? no it wouldn't, so total bullshit. u can't tell residens from outside Amsterdam, that residents from amsterdam have more rights than you do. 'but surely banlines keep off the bots' bots can detect ban lines, but can also buy land from a distance of 250 meters, because they can't see. bots are program without a grafical interface. 'Lower land price, but maybe you have to walk a few minutes to the town, or pay for public transportation or for TP.' no, sh*t, if u need to be on a other sim far away, u would be walking for hours. 'but perhaps tagging each region on each continent on the map with a predominant language spoken ' NO, the goal in the RL world is the have no borders at all and a 'GLOBAL HIGHWAY' is being planned. we need to look @ the future and learn from the past, the world is property of every soul on earth. no discrimination again, ever. Advertisers Guildline, YES. a LL figure 'type of marshal' to evalute a landprices if people report a 16sqm (for example) for price abuse, 9,999L$ for 16sqm. that LL marshal should remove the 'land for sale' flag and set it back to land 'not for sale'. over and over if nessary, till the owner of that 16sqm gets discouraged about setting it back for sale all the time at a **** high price. i think there hould also be a minimumsize of 512 since the beginning, than noone would need 16sqm plot for to reach the max tier fee. (because land fee start @ 512, not at 16sqm or make a new tier system and pay for every SQM owner by someone). i have 2 plots on mainland the they both are surrounded by add farms, directly next to my plots. i think many of your opinions are way to orthodox and selfish. please be more liberal and understanding. thank u. |
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Davina Glitter
Unplug me from RL!
Join date: 5 Jul 2006
Posts: 20
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08-07-2008 04:25
I would love to see the minimum size for sale be set to 512 meters and not just a strip or dotted area of land. This is good news for everyone. Still can not regulate how people place objects on their land, like a car in the middle of no where and prims jetting into the neighbors parcel.
We shall see. I would love to volunteer to be a LL parcel helper person thingy.  Lets clean up Linden Land! |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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08-07-2008 04:36
a LL figure 'type of marshal' to evalute a landprices if people report a 16sqm (for example) for price abuse, 9,999L$ for 16sqm. that LL marshal should remove the 'land for sale' flag and set it back to land 'not for sale'. over and over if nessary, till the owner of that 16sqm gets discouraged about setting it back for sale all the time at a **** high price. 2/ the ability to visually mute anything you want, added to the SL viewer. Don't want to see ads? Vismute them. Don't want to see banlines? Vismute them. Don't like an ugly build? Vismute it. Individual choice - not "impose my Vismute on others". But there's no longer time to wait for a viewer with such new features. Ad blight has been a problem far too long already, and as a result the Mainland is becoming a loss center for LL's balance sheet. It's time to stop the bleeding. |
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Dan Doyle
SL User
Join date: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 24
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no
08-07-2008 05:09
As has been said at least a thousand times before, there are legit non-ad-farm purposes to having parcels smaller than 512m2. I have been reading through some of this and sorry I don't agree there is NO need to have a plot smaller then 512 *shakes head* please if you would like explain |
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Mystiphi Giha
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2007
Posts: 17
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08-07-2008 05:21
I wonder Katt. One thing I can't help but surmise is that LL has lost touch with the residents. One only has to look at Mysti's posts to realize this. Mysti is one of SL's best citizens, yet she is not "big enough" to get personal attention from the gods. For all you oldb's that posted under your real handle, don't 'cha think that much has been lost never to be regained? It's not anywhere near our world anymore. Katt and other Linden's will pay lip service to our posts, but I am beginning to suspect that they have become so far removed from the real SL that they can not comprehend just what it is that we are saying. Ah thanks, *blush* woke up to see you posted this. Like I said, I am just waiting on a clear answer on whether or not that land now renamed and still called protected really is , or are their other intentions for it while they do this mainland streamline. I would just prefer some answers so I know whether I will be refunding renters $ and closing down my marina I believe ad-farming has to be addressed. I suggest those using smaller plots for personal vendors etc.. perhaps a PERMIT to cut parcels smaller than 512 would be an option. Violations of TOS, or terms of permits then would revoke further privilege. As far as living or making a living in one area, then to hear from various sources that the water/coast had no guarantees, and see the the potential for that to be taken away, Some warning in advance would be appreciated and perhaps an option for the owners to move into one of these "zoned areas" I have received 3 different answers from Linden sources; 2 are conflicting & the other is ambiguous at best. Bottom line is I need a creditable Source to answer directly to me or here or in PM : Is all the water S & SW of Charamillon going to be made into parcels for sale or does the word Protected on it under the new name mean nothing. Thanks |
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Yichard Muni
Elf
Join date: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 51
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zoning per style more relevant than per category of use
08-07-2008 05:28
jack,
we can say that there are basically two ways for users to involve in land: -mainland -privates land there is not one of these approaches which would be "bad" or "good". mainland offers a simpler approach for small projects, more individualistic people, people who don't want to engage into large building or social life, or small businesses. Private lands offer more freedom, for people who come in SL with a purpose and engage into larger projects, and are able to manage themselves large projects and groups. I hope that more involvement of LL in mainland doesn't mean that private lands would be dropped or get less attention. Yes private lands are more able to run on their own, so they require less work, but not "no care". They too have their concerns and problems. Yes as you guessed salvage advertisings are a plague in mainland. But this is just the most apparent problem. The second problem is that each plot has its style, and neighbouring plots often conflict together. Zoning can be a solution, but it seems much more relevant to make a zoning per style than by category of use. I was myself looking for a nature-soft environment, fleeing square building of black-evil style. The plot next door to mine was a market, but in the style, and without ugly adds, so it was not a problem. Also zones should be separated by natural landmarks, such as sea, large rivers, mountains, large common facilities, etc and items such as roads will be relevant in some places, and not in others. Or in the style... Also, gathering small plots in larger ones should be made simpler. Today abandonned lands are just auctioned without care, except in some peculiar cases (plots included in another...). More priority should be given to the immediate neighbours, such as asking them if they are interested before auctioning. And in the land store, indicate which style is the land around. Such details much help. To other users: in this huge thread I shall be unable to check for comments on this post. |
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Taff Nouvelle
Virtual Business Owners
Join date: 4 Sep 2006
Posts: 216
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08-07-2008 05:34
I have received 3 different answers from Linden sources; 2 are conflicting & the other is ambiguous at best. Bottom line is I need a creditable Source to answer directly to me or here or in PM : Is all the water S & SW of Charamillon going to be made into parcels for sale or does the word Protected on it under the new name mean nothing. Thanks You honestly expect a straight answer??? I have never yet had 2 answers from LL that said the same thing, unless the people were actually standing together at the time. THIS is the main problem, there is no definitive answer to anything, even the TOS is open to be read in any way the person feels at that time. There have been times when a Linden says something in print, then denies even saying it, ( SL5B ) when you show the printed word, the answer is silence, or denial. Until this is stopped I for one will not believe anything I am told by a Linden, ever. |
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Yami Katayama
Registered User
Join date: 3 Jul 2006
Posts: 3
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08-07-2008 05:34
I think this is something that has been sorely needed for some time now. I avoid mainland as much as possible, because personally, I think it looks like a complete chaotic wasteland. Zoning is a good idea - especially zoning areas as residential or commercial. It's working for private sim owners, why would it not work for mainland as well? I think that taking the zoning further to the point of making areas match a certain theme would further improve the value of those areas - when your neighbors into gothic castles and you are into modern deco, both are complaining about their neighbors taste, but if the area is zoned for gothic castles, then both neighbors are happy. Of course, it requires people being in compliance - but we are supposed to be adults here. If you don't like the theme, don't buy that land. Of course, there would be plenty of room for "free for all" areas where the theme of your building would not have to be in question.
As far as advertising goes, it seems to me that the simple answer would be to set a standard by which any advertising would have to comply with. Size, style, glow, flexi, whatever, would have to meet the requirements for advertising, and would need to be within a set distance from a linden road - why would anyone NEED advertising in the middle of people's homes, unless their true intent was to extort those home owners to be rid of them? These are not unreasonable requirements - cities, counties, states do them all the time. Entire zoning commissions take care of what can be built where, and what it may look like. Why not just set up an official zoning commission for mainland, comprised of LL employees and residents with a vested interest? Whatever the solution LL comes up with, the most important aspect is ACTION and COMMITMENT. They actually need to do something and they need to be committed to following through with it, not decide that it is too tedious and time consuming, leaving us with yet another broken promise of fixing things. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 05:42
This "being blocked on all sides" policy has to go. The person can always tp in on their own land. They don't have a right to the view, and they don't need the right to access others' land to get to their own. There is no need for easements. |
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Jack Linden
Administrator
Join date: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 158
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08-07-2008 05:49
Wonderful to see so many first time posters in the thread, and some really constructive comments too.
You who are debating with one another, in this forum, must realize that LL is paying no attention to your fine points. I'm sure they have better things to read. Cleaning up the mainland in general will be painful for some, but not many will shed tears for the ad farmers. As long as the principles of "eminent domain" are exercised prudently with fair compensation for land to those who must relocate or alter their purpose, the changes will be welcomed by the VAST majority of SL users. Later on today or perhaps tomorrow, I will wrap this thread up with a summary of common themes and opinions that have emerged from this thread and answer any last points. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 05:50
As far as ad farms, I think Ingrid Ingersoll had a fab suggestion with simply providing them with a frame and some rules that the ads must fit in the frame, no temp rezzer, etc. No beacons, no shouting, no smut in PG regions. Billboards. That seems easy enough. |
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Jezebella Electricteeth
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
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08-07-2008 05:51
When I lived on mainland, the problem we had the most was abandoned lots FULL of prim junk all around us, and advertisements. Setting up Convenants like Dreamland has in place is probably a very good idea.
Where, may I ask, would you find the time for all this policing for zoning though? Linden Labs have hardly any time as it is it seems. As most active residents who buy land on mainland get to know others on their sim, perhaps a "neighbourhood watch" system would be a good idea. As for advertisments, they are the plague of mainland. When we were there we built a wall over them in our sim as they were completely abandoned and likely had never been looked at again by the buyer. |
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Taff Nouvelle
Virtual Business Owners
Join date: 4 Sep 2006
Posts: 216
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summary
08-07-2008 05:53
it seems a large majority are opposed to ad farms, but not opposed to advertising in a sympathetic way, ieL small roadside adverts, adverts in commercial areas.
Ban lines dhould turn off automatically when the resident is not on line. Most agree that zoning would be useful, if it still allows freedom of expression. Cutting land into 16 metre plots is not a problem, SELLING 16 metre plots is, minimum sale area should be 512 massive overpricing should be treated as extortion. The TOS sets community standards, make the rules work. Ensure that when a Linden hands down an edict, it is adhered to. Decisions should be logged and given a code number and name that can be checked against. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LL, Please use the expertise that is available, succesful estate owners are succesful because they understand what makes a tenant happy, use that expertise. Happy tenants stay and continue to pay tier, that means less admin work, more income and more stability. That is what we all need. |
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Eira Ryba
Registered User
Join date: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1
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much to much rules
08-07-2008 05:53
I onli live in Mainland from beginning becours ther was now rules and I can do and live like i want. But now any week Linden comes with new rules and restriktions. I altimes afraid to play with new objekts never can be shur if I not make an Naiber angri and a kraysy Linden take restriktions against me. If you make rules they must be clear ann not like Flummis. And you must help your Custumers with hints and not with restriktions with out explanation. In real live we have to much rules and now you distreu SL also with to many rules but in RL i can take a louer but in SL you bulding a Diktation.
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Nibru Arai
Registered User
Join date: 3 Aug 2007
Posts: 1
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Freedom Freedom........
08-07-2008 05:53
We Already live in a real world where Big Brother is watching and trying to control our lives. My own experience in Sl has been one of seeing places that used to be fun turned into post cards where one can stand and talk but not create or contribute or use the various tools (building scripting etc.) While I am all for enforcement of terms of service and banning those who come to SL to simply annoy others or see if they can crash a sim, I dont personally feel like I should have to put up with someone else telling me what I can or cant do with my own land, it is after all my land. I have no restrictions on any of the land that I own and I invite anyone to come and enjoy themselves there. Putting into place an enforcement of terms of service is much more desireable to me than someone dictating my SL experience.
Give your feedback on the Mainland blog post to Jack Linden -- Text of the blog post This is a post about the Mainland, and more specifically, about an exciting and necessary change of direction we're taking. I'm also going to talk about why we think the Mainland is important, what we feel the issues are and some of the ways that we intend to transform it for those of you that live or spend time there. This won't be a short read, so grab a drink, make yourself comfortable and join me after the cut.. [More...] We have come a long way since those first 16 or so regions appeared back in 2003. These days we have inworld parties that are larger than the original mainland. At nearly 5000 regions the Mainland represents around 327 square kilometers of virtual land. If those regions were placed end to end, that is almost 800 miles to drive through and in terms of area the Mainland is now bigger than Malta. The Mainland is important, it has a history, it has roots. Many of you had your first experience of Second Life on the Mainland, you may have bought your first parcel, accidentally attached that first prim to your head, or added that first name to your Friends list there. These are the largest contiguous land masses we have, each of them incredibly creative and dynamic in their own ways and home to some wonderful communities. All of the Mainland Residents deserve as good an experience as we can provide. It has always been a diverse and exciting place to have your inworld home, but in recent times it has also become a challenging and frustrating one. We have long had a policy of noninterference, instead applying the Terms of Service and Community Standards via abuse reporting. This made sense during the pioneer period of early adopters and rapid growth, but to echo Mitch Kapor's recent speech at the Second Life birthday event, as our audience widens we have to take a more active part in guiding their experience. Unfortunately with the wonderful freedoms and creativity the Mainland offers have also come substantial problems that are unique to this area of the grid and so the time for change is now. As Estate Manager for the Mainland continents, Linden Lab needs to become more involved. Much more. We have to actively work to provide the best experience for our customers just as the many wonderful private estate owners do for theirs. You can expect to see Linden Lab proactively resourcing, planning and taking action to better support the many mainlanders on our estate; we have a responsibility to our tenants and we take this role very seriously. We feel that this change is critically important and feedback from you tells us that you agree. This change has actually been coming for a while. You can see the early signs of this new commitment, with projects such as the Dept of Public Works and the more rapid recycling of abandoned land. Both initiatives will continue to grow. The problems on the Mainland are many and sometimes complex. We have Mainland land values that are less stable than we would like so we need to be more open, earlier, about how we intend to manage supply and what metrics we care about when making those decisions. We need to help you to understand why we make the decisions that we do. I'll be blogging much more about that topic soon. We need to address issues regarding highly fragmented regions and areas of problem terrain, especially coastline. And then there is advertising.. It is hard to talk about the Mainland without talking about the issue of advertising inworld; it is, without question, one of the biggest issues we face. Through office hours, emails and notecards we have been gathering feedback from all sides of this issue ever since the initial change of policy earlier this year. That change helped but it didn't go nearly far enough. Current policy allows adverts which ruin the view and depress land values for nearby Residents which is just not acceptable. We need to professionalize all aspects of advertising inworld. This includes our relationship with the advertisers, the conditions under which advertising (especially by large networks) is controlled and the guidelines that we wish advertisers to adhere to. In many ways this is no different to how real life cities approach this problem, and our principal drive here will be on improving the quality of experience for our Residents. You can expect a much more thorough explanation of how we intend to handle advertising very soon but rest assured that this will change, because it has to. Whilst many Residents love the ever changing aspect of the Mainland, for some Residents living there is just too dynamic and too unpredictable. We intend to provide more choice in the kinds of new Mainland continents that we make available because just as our customer base is very diverse, so are their land needs. To meet those diverse needs we plan to create different areas with different covenants in place that are actively enforced by Linden Lab; basically this means Zoning. This may include commercial areas, or residential only, or areas with no advertising. We hope to be talking more about how this will happen towards the end of the quarter. Governor Linden owns a very substantial amount of land, and there is a lot we can do to make these parcels more attractive for the Residents living alongside. Obviously that will be a fairly long term project due to the high numbers of parcels involved. I should probably wrap up at this point, before this post becomes a novel. But I'd like to get much more feedback on this post than the blog comments would allow, and also be sure that Residents in all timezones get a chance to give their views. So we have created a specific Forum area which should be available a few minutes after this posting goes out; so please take a look and let us know your thoughts there. To reiterate, comments are disabled for this post because we'd like your feedback on the forums please. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 05:54
Some sort of "you can't place the item unless it is TOTALLY in your land "would be very welcome. I don't know if anyone spoke of it, but please provide infrastructure on new continents (roads and walking areas between the individual plots. the ability to visually mute anything you want, added to the SL viewer. Don't want to see ads? Vismute them. Don't want to see banlines? Vismute them. Don't like an ugly build? Vismute it. Individual choice - not "impose my Vismute on others". |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 05:59
I don't know if anyone spoke of it, but please provide infrastructure on new continents (roads and walking areas between the individual plots. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 06:02
the ability to visually mute anything you want, added to the SL viewer. Don't want to see ads? Vismute them. Don't want to see banlines? Vismute them. Don't like an ugly build? Vismute it. Individual choice - not "impose my Vismute on others". |
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Smoothie Perl
Registered User
Join date: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 4
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Sounds Good But What Next?
08-07-2008 06:07
I'm trying to read all the above threads (not finished yet! it's a lot of reading) but I need also to send out my thoughts.
The main issue for those changes it must be AD pollution. As I can see, AD pollution is annoying, except if serving our business benefits. I'm working inWorld for quiet sometime now and I was trying to avoid these methods, but I saw others to doing it a lot. Residents concerning and complains about AD pollution and other stuff only if their business or home are in the area and their doing that to others parcels if they have the opportunity. From my point of view many issues can resolve from dialogue and discussion. I were in many cases in very difficult position with annoying neighbours in Mainland, but in most cases I resolved by discussing that issue. Many times ppl don't realise that their creative is annoying and they are ready to correct their mistake. Last thing I want to ask is "What about the existing mainland and with us that we have business and investing money on it?" Can LL be more specific in that issue, because we need to know. |
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Taff Nouvelle
Virtual Business Owners
Join date: 4 Sep 2006
Posts: 216
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08-07-2008 06:08
You have never had to deal with a real "bad landlord" in SL, I see.  Sorry this reply is very late, My point was that bad landlords dont stay in business for very long |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 06:12
'Bigger plots of course could go to auction directly, but i would still rather see a 'closed' auction phase, where people who own land elsewhere in the sim could bid with/against eachother first, before it opened up widely, though that may be asking too much i guess.' would this happen in RL? In RL this kind of thing is so common that it's beyond comment. When I lived on mainland, the problem we had the most was abandoned lots FULL of prim junk all around us, and advertisements. Cutting land into 16 metre plots is not a problem, SELLING 16 metre plots is, minimum sale area should be 512 |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 06:16
When I lived on mainland, the problem we had the most was abandoned lots FULL of prim junk all around us, and advertisements. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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08-07-2008 06:18
Cutting land into 16 metre plots is not a problem, SELLING 16 metre plots is, minimum sale area should be 512 |
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Jannae Karas
Just Looking
Join date: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 1,516
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08-07-2008 06:21
In RL you would not be able to buy a vacant lot, chop it up into 16m chunks, and sell each piece off separately. In RL you wouldn't be able to put up a billboard without approval. In RL adding a water tank to your house can take five council meetings, notification to your neighbors, and a 30 page document including details of all protests and approval of remediation. In RL sales may need to be approved by the homeowner's association. In RL... In RL this kind of thing is so common that it's beyond comment. In RL I can/t fly (w/out a vehicle) or teleport either. _____________________
Taller Than
I Imagined, nicer than yesterday. |