Feedback on the Mainland

Here's the answer Jack gave, earlier in this thread..

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2390 may help

Precisely. Removing telehubs and P2P gave rise to landbots when SL became OS.

The big blue signs should have raised big red flags at LL back in 2005, but didn't.

LL was lucky in the sense, that Lazarus was his own worst enemy and eventually his own bad behavior (ie) threats, disruptions, etc got himself banned. He was NEVER disciplined for spamming or extortion.

This gave license to the situation as we know it today. Who's fault is this? It's Linden Lab's.

Let's remeber one thing people. Linden Lab does not do right by it's subscribers. Linden Lab does what is right for profit and nothing else.

From a townhall meeting with Philip Linden in October of 2004:


Gee? What changed this policy? Money, that's what. Nothing else.

In 2006, I posted a thread called "An Open Letter to Linden Lab", protesting LL's decision to co-opt my business of reclaiming released land for their own profitability. In that letter, I clearly outlined the pitfalls of their decision and the ramifications they should expect as a result. One of the points was that of adfarmer proliferation. At that time, I was gravely concerned about Lazarus Devine and that ilk, and took several procative measures to prevent him from purchasing microplots. I developed a "ticketed" system, where neighboring residents could buy the land for 2/sqm.

In Andrew Linden's response to this letter, he erroneously claimed "LL staff has spent a considerable time dealing with the issue". Nothing can be further from the truth. Many of the errors were resolved by myself or others who were in the same business, primarily because LL DOES NOT INTERVENE IN DISPUTES BETWEEN RESIDENTS. Several times, Lindens attended and observed while I resolved the issue between jilted lovers, rogue officers or interface errors. Numerous times, I was complimented by the Lindens themselves for tasks they were unable to perform, by holding land in trust while solutions were sought.

What really pisses me off about this, IS WE HAD AN EFFECTIVE RESIDENT RUN SYSTEM THAT WORKED and we were a major factor in the vibrance of the economy. Land errors were returned in nearly every instance, profitability was in place for not only myself, but those who bought the land from us for resale. During this program, not once did I sell land at base value. I resold every plot to other brokers at 2/sq meter. One of my best clients was Travis Lambert of "Shelter" fame, who really enjoyed building challenges and resold bargain plots to new residents, at reduced rates. Several land dealers, Finn Jensen, CP Costello, Cat Black, Anshe Chung (to name a few) all did well buying land from me. If none were online at the time, I sold land on the open market at 2/sqm and many upstart or established land barons purchased the land immediately.

Philip Linden contradicts himself, by making the claim "These things are better managed by the residents themselves" and "Linden Lab does not compete with it's own residents" That philosphies went out the window, when LL decided to co-opt our profits for themselves. With abandoned land, they had a system which was 100% automated and required little to no Linden involvement. A money sink of $1/sqm was generated to stabilize the economy and tier passed from one resident's tier directly into another's.

Nerfing the abandoned land program, essentially removed any resident oversight and control to the blind and indifferent Governor Linden. Now, Linden Lab requires intensive labor costs and huge numbers of man hours and they cannot even begin to dent the land which is sitting in unpaid tier. Last report was 2.5 million sq meters. This was before the land surge, so I expect it's higher, despite Jack's claim of "catching up". It's no secret, when abandoned land sits for weeks, months, even years right before every resident's eyes.

Am I bitter? Damn right I am. Linden Lab took away my livelyhood purely for greed and mired themselves in the problems we are discussing today.

I can say with all the confidence in the world..... I told you so!

I appreciate the lengths to which Linden Lab is prepared to go for the future of the Mainland. I welcome their professional experience and am glad to see that meeting the customers need is first on their list of "to-do"

But, when you ask for feedback, perhaps you should include something concrete in your blogging so we can provide real feedback.

Posting a long-winded blog announcement and speaking only in vague specifics only flames people to say "Good Job" and "Thank You". Of course, perhaps it was your true intent to get some warm and fuzzy comments to help boost your ability to say, "Look, our user base still loves us". While many have fallen into this trap, I, and others of like mind are asking, jsut what SPECIFIC changes do you plan on making?

Personally I don't trust Linden Lab much, and this is just another reason showing why. Your slick talking propaganda ministers say NOTHING but rely on people's "hot buttons" to gain favorable comments. Not only that, but rarely does Linden Lab consult the Residents of Second Life before making decisions. I for one would like Linden Lab to actually ASK what the Residents want or need before deciding what to do, then use that real feedback to base their actions on. Linden Lab says they care about the Residents of Second Life, well, here's their chance to prove that. Ask Residents FIRST, and using that feedback, come up with a policy that reflects what the Residents have asked for.

Lastly, I personally would appreciate if Linden Lab would stop posting Blog entries designed only to illicit favorable comments. Next time you decide to post a Blog Entry, try posting something with some concrete steps, or at least here are the "ideas" we think you want, tell us if we are on-target.

When Linden Labs created a bunch of regions with protected roads and paths I honestly don't think they were prepared to see them trashed into 16m2 roadside parcels. I got burned purchasing a few of these sims at auction and no longer bid on these sims because I cannot control what happens to when someone who purchased a lot decides to dump it.

Here is one problem that I have seen happen over and over. Some person with a roadside parcel needs to bail out for what ever reason. The parcel is purchased at maybe 3.5L per meter. A micro parcel investor cuts out the roadside section and inflates the roadside parcels to 20 L$ per meter sometimes more, then dumps the remaining lot at 3L$ per meter. The ad people come in and stick huge signs up advertising to no one. The fact is some of the 16m2 parcels have ban lines to annoy people into buying them. Then there are the signs facing other signs. Either way it trashes the values of the land.

Linden Labs has failed to enforce any of this and many sims auctioned months ago still sit vacant because of the micro parcels. If you think a huge towering sign shooting particles 300meters into the sky that can be seen across 2 sims is not spam then I don't know what your ad-farm spam ruling is suppose to do...

Don't get me wrong. I like in world advertising. Its crucial for my business. I have small signs maybe 6 meters high at the most and when I purchase roadside parcels I will not sell anything even close to the road for a small amount.

My suggestion is to create roadside sims that are auctioned with limits as to how small an individual parcel can be sold. So as a land owner I maybe able to make as many 16m2 parcels as I want for example, but maybe the smallest parcel that can be sold is 320m2. That would eliminate the worry of having a person who buys land from me, dump it and it get trashed.

all i can say is, please, let's learn a lesson from the recent private island fiasco, and that is, consider carefully the effects of new mainland policies on EXISTING mainland regions. not new mainland offerings, but all the existing regions, so that their value is not destroyed.

any new policies should seek to either enhance, or simply maintain existing value of current mainland regions, but not decimate them.

I have a question, were these all in the same sim?

I'm workin on the idea of the sim tier being 512 minimum, that would allow you to have any number of sub divisions within your land in a single sim, with no ill effects, for whatever purposes you need.

You would however have to pay a minimum of 512sqm tier to own land in a sim, even if it was only going to be a 16sqm plot, so people who farm out hundreds of those would get strongly impacted, but I dont think most other users would even notice or care...

Since you described all those legitimate sub plots, I was just curious if a change like that would have affected you, i.e. if these were all in seperate sims.

So, what you are proposing would completely wipe out the tier free 512m2 premium bonus so that those that upgrade and just want a little, tier free, 512 plot for a home are now out of luck?

I am glad you appeared in this thread. I could not agree more.

Jack has not been tasked to this job, because it's the right thing to do by residents. He is tasked to this job, because LL themselves created a monster and it's effecting the bottom line in San Francisco. Although Jack's intent to "clean things up" might be genuine, he is not very forthright about Linden Lab's intent. Adfarms are causing excessive labor costs, reducing resident retention and blighted landscapes.

Call a spade a spade, Jack. Don't piss on our legs and tell us it's raining. Accept some responsibility for once. Maybe then, and only then will some trust be regained.

I don't see where you get that from what Eltee said. Seriously. What did I miss?

LIABILITY - LIABILITY

Its also very odd to see a company like beanbags.com have a networked advert above an XXX rated club. I don't think the people in these companies would ever think of putting their brand name in jeopardy in RL with advertising antics like this. Same for some non profit Native American org posted along side topless Asian Singles.

When you look at the lack of common sense these advertising professionals have, you have to wonder about liability issues. If their organization's name is damaged in anyway there is a good change that Linden Research will be named in a law suit. Keep in world advertising in world and for in world "companies".

I have land in three different sims, owning 1/2 and 3/4 of those three different sims. Within each of those sims I've done one or all of these things which use smaller than 512 divisions. From how you've described your suggestion, it probably would not affect me.

not at all, the idea would simply be that the 'floor' on tier would be 512 within a given sim, i.e. if you got 512sqm of available tier in your account, and bought a 512 parcel nothing would be changed.

If however you wanted to use that 512sqm to start a '16sqm advertising empire' you would buy your first 16sqm in a sim, and find that it was used up...

Essentially to 'buy' into a sim, the notion would be, you would be using a minimum of 512sq, whether you actually use the full 512 for land you own, or just a single advertising/spam square...

Im not wholly endorsing the idea myself, im just feeling it out... it *would* likely stop all those 16sqm spam networks in their tracks, as they would suddenly cost more than 30x as much to run...

I don't think it would drastically affect many other people however, since i don't think very many people actually own *less* than 512 sqm in a large number of sims (outside advertisers)... I'm just asking if that was the case for people here or not, i.e. with that 'rule' would you even be paying more?

If you did pay a little more (say you owned 400 sqm in a few different mainland sims now) would you consider it a worth-while trade to be rid of all those spam advertising plots?

Just curious is all really. I think this is far less draconian than *REQUIRING* all plots be 512 sqm or more, which has lots of problems with land use of legit people in their own sims, but it would have the same cost effect on advertising networks...

Think of it like a system based compromise, you can subdivide and use your real land plots any way you like, but people who want to own 16sqm in 'every' sim around a popular area, would have to pay through the nose to get it, making it a much less attractive business practice.

What about home points? There's plenty of groups that have most of the parcel owned by a separate land group, with a 16m exception owned by a the main group that's the "home point" for the clubhouse.

I don't think there should be any kind of minimum size for a parcel in a sim, or ownership in a sim. Instead, some kind of minimum size for sale, perhaps. If the parcel is less than 128m, then it should only be able to be set for sale to some specific person for L$0... so you can trade small parcels back and forth to clean up boundaries... without being able to profit from land extortion with Linden Labs help.

thanks. We own land in 6 different mainland sims (>50% in most of them) and we would likely not be affected either (other than seeing a bunch of parasitic/extortionist plots get released around us ), I'm just curious as to whether anyone can think of any legit users/use cases who would be largely negatively affected by it...

I would not want to advocate this idea if there were any large negatively impacted groups (besides land extortionists), but if no one can think of any, i think the 'tier minimum per sim of 512' would be far more workable than just mandating all plots be 512 or greater.

People who invest in living in a sim can do whatever they like with the land, divide it however they please without this affecting them at all, it just stops individual speculators from ruining the sim with 16sqm of nastyness, sale price L$50k, costing them something like $0.08 of tier fees a month

Interesting point and one in fact we actually have, i.e. we have one group (luskwood) owning 99% of our land in lusk, but we do have a seperate group which owns a 16sqm home point for people...

Under this idea the seperate group would be charged more tier, 512 assumably, not 16sqm... but honestly i would happily pay that extra tier in that one extra group, to be rid of all the other nasty extortion parcels around us.

In those group ownership models (like ours) you likely do have people donating/buying huge swaths of tier (in 1/2 sim increments) so likely you would have more than that maximum 496 sqm this could cost you just as 'idle' in your group or personal account anyway...

In this case i believe i have something like 6000ish sqm of 'tier' idle in my account, as the main tier provider for the primary group, so i could donate the extra to the spawn in point group without loosing much... but is that the same with other people's situations? I'm not sure, i'd think its likely...

/signed

I was looking for a "roadside" plot so I could not be cut off. I'm still waiting for that road to be built. Why do you build roads on the newer continents first, and I'm still waiting for a road on the 2nd real new continent? (the one to the south from the original mainland)

Ad farms can be ugly, I'm lucky that on the sim I still have some land it's not that bad compared to what I've seen. Now I have, more for fun really, as my method of anger management started to set up "ads" in the form of a giant spinning, shiny (but not glowy or full bright) Döner Kebap on 2 cheap roadside 4x4 plots.

If you i.e. Linden Lab decides that advertising on 4x4 or 4x8 plots is no longer allowed that's fine with me. I'm all for zoning and better infrastructure.

I hope you can work out a compromise between "the freedom of the mainland" and regulations/covenants like those found at many private estates.

And please don't neglect the older continents. I'm still waiting for that road. (since Feb 07)

Ground texturing controls: isnt it possible to make a estate tool for simowners where they can change their daytime settings (for mainland) and additional a waterlevel-tool who is splitted into four quarters of the sim (for estates)? Per example when your sim is created in different floorheights and you want at any of its different heights water? This would probably give the possibiliy to make waterfalls. With the waterheight around the sim at the same level its a bit tricky for landscaping to find a good choice!
Joking: The niagara falls come to Second Life

Large walls/sightblocking:
I prefer for this case the case by case solution like a court does it. I have seen many of this big walls in SL and some of their owners just want to block the competing seller across the street from selling. Mostly are this two who sell just the same things, its very unfair just by speculate that the opposite business can deduct some clients from the own business. Business yes but with fairness.

Land littering/unused plots:
My point concerning the littering is the same as for ad farms: Remove them.
For unused land or unfinished buildings i think its same as when you go to a sandbox and they remove/send back your build after a certain time - its unfair because some works need additional time to finish. On the other side, if land is littered above a certain time its only a unreasonable demand for the neighbours. I think a fixed timescreen would be helpful for such cases. The "sanbox rule".
The opposite side of it is who is able to control and decide what is finished and what not? I conclude for abuse reported cases you remember the concerning landowners via the support line first. Then try to ask the residents around the littering plot what they think about the neighbour. If the "guilty" didnt respond after a certain time you remove the litters. Nobody can say after they didnt have knowed it, any user has denoted a email adress where they are get informed and reachable!

All this opportunities are cafeful to handle and im happy to know that LL does handle it with such a care! But dont try to rule too much like the estate owners do it mostly, too much ruling destroys the game's fun and people will leave it.

I think that exisiting sims should not be zoned. For people who want zoning they could buy in the new zoned sims, after all not everybody wants zoning or restirtions on what they can build.

This is the most amazing thread ever. Pretty soon everyone I know or have ever heard of will have posted.

I guess Jack really hit a nerve.

My thoughts after so many pages is that one small but cool thing for LL to do right away is get rid of the visible ban lines. I don't think that I have seen anyone pro red tape on this thread yet.

Gets rid of one big griefer tool and can be done server side.

Soon after I arrived – almost a year ago – I bought a small (512) beach lot at a “Linden sea”. It had water on three sides. Since then the water on two sides has become “land”. But I still have my – I assume protected – beach on the Linden sea. I bought more - non-mainland - property but this beach is my “retreat” where I receive friends, have peace and play. I believe a lot of residents are in the same position and understand the need for changes. I just hope that my “beach”, lifestyle and immediate environment won’t be much affected. (It would be nice if it becomes less laggy though…)

I have just been sent this link and can only say, you have let all of us down who have posted comments in this forum if this is the way you are to deal with people from now on.

http://www.happyclamisland.org/blogs/hciblog/b/post/How-green-was-my-metaverse.aspx

The treatment is entirely unacceptable and shows complete incompetence from LL staff, we pay good money for our time in Secondlife, and expect a good level of service from LL, not forums paying lip service to the mainland blight, but a real effort to solve the problems as users we experience on a daily basis.
if putting big blocks on 16sqm of land is acceptable to LL then putting a huge wall around that block is acceptable to.
By allowing the blocks you are basically saying thats a bit of server space put what you like on it, which should cut both ways and as such the idea of zoning everything else you have lead us to believe will be done is just a load of flannel.

I am sick of being extorted just to build my dream, in the virtual world as are the majority of people who have posted in this forum.

Wake up and listen to your customers.

From a lady who doesn't like to feel cheated

I must agree with Esther Merrymans previous posting. We ve been "spamming" Jack Linden for quite a while now with all kind of information, proves and pictures. We also refered to several Jira purposals & blogs. During these meetings Jack told us an announcement could be expected soon.. We were somehow delighted and hopeful .. till yesterday..

First of all several good residents were ARd and had them objects returned cause they were blocking "ads", even while they did built on their own property (see the url in Esther Merrymans posting) but most of all i was shocked about this forum posting ! Instead of a solution LLC wants Feedback from us in order to find a solution ! We have been given that for months !!!!

Sorry Jack, nothing personal you seem like a nice guy, but the fact you guys still dont have a solution proves there is a lack of proper managment.

Back in the days ------- Names removed by Katt Linden ------------- was suspended and some of his land reclaimed, but some other ad farmers, who are financing them tiers with extortion money, still are allowed to cut and destroy, even more insane : they get instant help from Governance .

------- Names removed by Katt Linden ------------- cuts the grid like hell groups RN & DD. I ve given you a folder with pictures and i am not the only one with this clown around my property. I also know this person is ARd over 100 times if not 1000s ! He is still cutting and extortining while using banlines. Where is your communication with Governance Team ????

------- Names removed by Katt Linden ------------- ... please do some research or take a road trip ..

Male avatars gotta show them balls too Jack, act now or your grid will have an exodus instead of an improvement. Act now cause in some months mainland will be the most complicated puzzle ever ..

You want some more feedback ? I have a library ready for you ..

I really hope LLC can solve this issue but i have lost my faith ..

Jack,

I'm a newbee. I've been in SL for about 2 months now. So far I've acquired around 6000 sq. m. of contiguous landplots on the mainland. My intent is to build structures and to open a store on my property.

Prior to acquiring all this land, I scouting a considerable number of regions. My reactions to what I saw, as well as what I've experienced in my short time as a landowner are:

--Ad farms (the 16 sq.m. plots) should be outright banned. They're eyesores.

--Advertising with spinning objects--a lot of these are huge and unsightly. Ban those. Set a height and size limit on 'em as well as how many and where they can be placed.

--Some SL Land Realtors seem to litter their plots with objects in an attempt, I suspect, to get the owners to buy them out at exorbitant prices just to rid the unsightliness. That should be outlawed; when land goes up for sale, the realtors should be allowed to have no more than a few tasteful items on the land (e.g., a reasonable sign, some trees, perhaps a house if it's being offered with the property)

--Litter. In my travels, I saw considerable ground and air litter--objects that seemed to be abandoned. If those objects don't belong to the landowner or members of the group that owns the land, they should be autoreturned automagically by LL (Is this supposedly done now?).

If a plot without a structure has such object litter on it, the owner should be made to clean up . . . if more than two adjacent neighbors complain about it.

-- Griefers attacking people on their own land. One, cages should be outlawed on the mainland (I've been attacked by griefers twice who wielded such in the two months I've been here is SL)

Two, there really should be some mechanism where I can prevent ALL such combat functions from impacting me (some sort of automagic shielding that prevents all such mechanisms used by non-group, non-owners, and non-friends. I didn't come here to play war games. I came here to create. I want to be left in peace.

-- Ban lines. I see the need for these . . . especially after being attacked twice. However, they are irritating when you're exploring. I have no solution to offer, however . . . except that I use a security system now that bumps people I don't want to have access to my property rather than using ban lines (exception: non-verified age avatars).


==================

I have one other MAJOR concern:

Zoning, if implemented-- How will this destroy my investment in the land I've purchased? You need to talk more about how this would work.

I need land that allows me to build and to run a store. Will I be grandfathered, since I already own the land and have started building a shop? Or will I lose my investment? If the latter, I would be greatly ticked. I've invested a considerable sum in land and gadgetry in an attempt to do some things that I feel will have a positive impact on the SL community at large. I don't want to lose that investment due to "governmental interference".

How would zoning be fairly handled? How are you going to decide the zoning for existing regions? Will I have to go in front of a board and petition for a "land use variance"? Who would be on this board? One of the reasons I bought in a mature area was to have the freedom to pretty much do what I want . . . as long as I behaved responsibly.

Just Zone me "builder" and let me get on with what I'm trying to do.

--- Rema

#417
Thats a good idea, make a minimum tier cost of 512 if you own land in a sim. Each and every sim seperate unless contiguous across the sim boundry.