Feedback on Ad Farm Post - Part 2

Hope you ARed its ass.

To the best of my knowledge, Oct 1st still applies. That's when the new rules will become effective, and have to be complied with.

This is post #12 of this thread from Jack Linden.

I believe it clearly states that the new policies are effective October 1st.

Firstly, my apology to you Kara & others re the date matter; although there is no mention of a date JL did in fact imply that they won't be doing anything until oct 1, in his response as posted above (/346/9a/281807/1.html#post2146472 ) to Sean.
That being said bear in mind that the ToS is in place & you may submit ARs in accordance.
Secondly let me add a little by way of explanation to my other comments, in providing some reasoning behind them; in the entire first thread, there were no complaints or serious objections to the original proposal, yet the Sept 12th blog post cites opposition to it as the reason for its withdrawal. So, where in what forum did that opposition find voice? This and other seeming inconsistencies encourage cynicism & mistrust.

Lastly, i was somewhat struck by this similarity:

Idea ...

We are focusing on negative ways to approach the problem, what about positive ones?

Like reduced tier on land if you rejoin it? It would need to not allow the cutters and their alts to gain the rewards though.

My idea would be to charge ...say L$100 to cut a parcel...but you get a L$50 credit when you join 2 parcels...would something like this work?

I am musing on how this got so bad in the first place. I have read here that this problem has escalated over the last couple of years. I would have thought the very nature of the ad farm would violate the ToS as many many voices have been raised in protest. I am wondering if maybe LL's inaction is an organisational thing. No-one to do the actual work of policing and acting upon complaints.

I have noticed in another area - the Events Calendar - that it is clearly full of stuff that is disallowed, ie advertising and events that are not events but things that happen all the time (advertising in other words). It seems a bit too hard to wade through all that trash to find interesting events. Now how much work could that be for an LL employee to go through that list and toss out stuff that doesn't comply?

Its the same thing that appears to have happened in the current crisis. The extortionists and price gougers and ad farmers got away with behaviour that clearly hindered the enjoyment of the game for others - evidenced by the mass abandonment of land and unwillingness of residents to buy the in the ruined Sims - (lets just leave asisde arguments of 'right' and 'wrong' here - this is actually what has happened) and LL did not reign it in or act on complaints (judging by the stories I have read in the forums). Now 'new' rules have to be introduced. One problem I think that needs to be addressed by LL is a greater involvement in policing and governing the mainland. I would like to see more LL resources put to this end as opposed to software updates and new bells and whistles. I think they (LL) must realise that its not financially sound for them to have players leaving SL because of the wreckage parts of it have become. Policing is not about impinging on peoples 'freedoms' but about protecting and preserving the populace.

Hmm what you fail to realse is Adfarmers don't put money in SL from their wallets, they just suck other peoples out then use that to pay any tier they have, that's if they aren't using one of the land group exploits with infinate anonymous alts.
For LL to make money from Adfarmers they would have to make a loss, not going to happen, these goldfarmers are in it for big easy returns because they can.

No, you can be sure that would be gamed remorselessly.

Ermm...I don't fail to realise that at all. This post was specifically addressing the suggestion that the adfarmers were a major section of LL customers - that is that they conribute a substantial part of LL's profits. How much money the adfarmers take out of everyone elses wallets is not directly relevant to that question. It is indirectly relevant though, because some of that money might have come to LL, and because the destructive effect of the adfarms on the total customer spend. That is the whole point of my post!

Advertisers will claim that they benefit LL by encouraging others to spend more, and that more ends up in LL's coffers as a result than what they take out in profit. That is the only bottom-line justification for their business. It is the same as the justification for all the creative businesses in SL. But while the creative businesses are right, the advertisers are presently wrong because they have a negative effect on total spending by others.

What LL want is to get to a new balance where advertising brings them a net benefit. That is to say LL's share of the increased spending resulting from advertising exceeds the share of spending diverted into the advertisers wallets. This needs both the abolishing of advert-associated extortion, and the reduction of adverts to an "acceptable" form and number.

Some people would deny all advertisers any profit at all, even if they benefit LL's bottom line, but I don't think we can expect LL to take that view.

Jack has clearly acknowledged that the intended demise of advert extortion is only the start of dealing with extortion as a whole. It should make it easier though to distinguish between advertiser and extortionist.

---> My Edits <---

Good points. My own hypothesis is that, tragically, LL will not act at any level beyond talk until the mainland becomes an actual financial black hole. However in order to maintain at least a modicum of presentability (let's face it.. the mainland is most n00b's first experience of SL) LL should get a bit more involved in what is effectively their estate. The successful island estates: Caledon, D'Alliez, Dreamland, Otherland, Azure Islands, etc., have all succeeded as a result of their developer's level of involvement with their residents. And it doesn't take much... just laying down a few sensible ground rules, a bit of zoning here and there, the occasional dispute arbitration. The winning factor is the perception that the estate developer is not only seen as laying down the ground work for a pleasant environment but is also sufficiently involved as to maintain it as such. The rest is just routine administration.

What has gone wrong on the mainland is the general perception that:

1) LL, much like Pontius Pilate, have washed their hands of the mainland and abandoned it and its residents to the sharks.

2) LL is in bed with the the ad farmers and land extortionists.

It will take alot more than a bread'n'circuses style witch hunt against ad farmers to turn around that perception. Pogroms are are very well but they don't solve the underlying issues. Just ask the Romanovs where it got them... up against a wall in a cellar on the receiving end of a hail of revolutionary bullets :\

directly beside the mainland part of the lands I own I see the problem every day:
the place at my border is splitted wildly, the whole SIM is covered with huge com signs.

But on the other hand:
it's not easy to stay in business, I had to give up mine.
I would say having 3-4 Addis should be allowed (for those who directly sell things there should be a vendor, not on only a sales sign).

As a former business man with a rather good running business I can say that land tiers are the worst business killers.
2nd place goes to lagg causing objects (shure, mega prims with rotating banners are also a part of it).
Add farms with moderate usage of prims and scripts are only a minor problem.

On the other hand: the heights and width of such signs should be restricted, and no other script allowed but sale /handing out info.

What a wonderfully concise description.

I relate to every word of your post from direct experience as a neglected/ignored mainland resident. But I'm an optimist and am willing to believe *one more time*.

I think organisational problems within LL are the most likely cause of their inaction, this is still a great concern, as communication seems to be a major failing.

This thread has ran for days now without any Linden responses, leading to a feeling of abandonment, Is this due simply to a lack of support staff and as such does that mean there is likely to be little real change, despite the hope offered initially?

When placing an abuse report, sometimes a swift response is seen, at other times nothing happens even in the case of identical issues, where is the continuity?

Possibly its not the lack of desire to act by LL but a lack of ability to take this action.

Some recent posts contain more scepticism, but let's wait and see what happens after Oct 1st. Jack didn't say he'd discuss it here. He asked for feedback, that's all, and that's what he's getting, so there's no reason to feel abandoned in this thread.

I'm optimistic about it and whilst LL *may* take their hands off again and it turns out to be just a flash in the pan, I'm optimistic that they won't. The reason I think that way is because it's a little different now. There's a change of CEO who is leading LL towards their goal of making a genuine alternative to the web - even the future of the internet. They are not creating a game or anything like that. They are just making a viable system - a sort of alternative to the web. For SL to be seen realistically as such, it's obvious that it doesn't want to look like trash. Trashy land isn't exactly a great showcase for the system, and the CEO may be the one behind cleaning it up, and for that reason.

There were changes concerning ads a few months ago, and now more changes are about to take place. It looks ongoing to me. Time will tell, but I'm optimistic.

I agree, changes are all difficult and take time. but changes are happening:

-No gambling
-No Age play
- No Banking schems

and now Ad Farms,

Many may say still there is gambling and age play going against TOS and that LL is not actively enforcing the rules. But again SL is like RL and enforce this points are not easy. Unlike many say SL is not a police state. They are not looking at everything we are doing. so it is very difficult to enforce TOS. Also SL is becoming big as some countires (or states). I tis no surprise the problems that plage RL appear here too.

As in RL always there will be people that will deliberately brake the law and it is also a comunity duty to verify this and report.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

This is important that we help this changes to be effective as much as we insist with SL to have then.

they are making positive steps, and we have to handle then that.

I have read all of the ideas and suggestions and some I aggree and some not. I think the main issue is the extortion of some by creating holes in land and then creating blights and asking unreasonable selling prices.

My suggestion would be to create some eminent domain type rules and eliminate the allowance of holes in property. We can start with 16sqm plots inside larger lots of land. If the 16sqm lot is not owned by the group or owner that surrounds the 16sqm lot, then LL should require by eminent domain that the 16sqm lot be sold to the surround land owner at the current land prices in that sim or some reasonable price. If the owner of the said 16sqm lot refuses, then LL should seize the property and sell it to the surrounding land owner.

This should elimate some or most of the extortionist abilities.

Again, this is only my suggestion. Yeso

First, I had a nice home with a lovely sunset view.
Then I had a lovely home with a lovely sunset view and a BRIGHT BIG FLASHING For Sale add

And now I have infront of my home a nice huge brick wall that covers everything, and on my right, big flashing FOR SALE signs with big ugly builds....

*Deep sad sigh*

I will be happy if this can be sort out ... I want my lovely view back.

Sorry, just had to say it....

It seems it is against the TOS to send out group notices for new items in your shops, or to tell people that you have mall space available. OK I agreee the ad farms are a blight and need to be removed, but it seems that LL are using this policy now to stop legitimate traders from advertising except on their own property.
This is absolutely insane, be very careful about sending out notices on your friends list, it can get you ARed.

Well, if you have a product group, sending product announcements to the group is what it is for. Don't see how anyone could AR that. However, spamming your friends list with commercial ads is, at best, tacky and I guess I can see where someone might file an AR on it.

Personally, I'd just drop you off my friend list without hesitation.

No.....we're talking here about effectively sending a business card ( a note ) to a business owner. The sort of thing that happens every day in the real world !!

So.....it is forbidden to notify a business owner that one has a mall where they might wish to sell their products.

If it was an informational notecard dropped on a business owner then, yes, I would agree that an AR is rather silly unless the business owner specifically stated in their profile not to send them.

But I doubt it had anything to do with the ad farm policy and was processed under the existing anti-spam rules.

Still, such a practice is common in SL and to be ARd for it now would be tough to swallow.

Well.....if it's against TOS to send anyone notes about business...........then 10,000 sims on which the first thing you get is an automated note.....would all have to be closed !

This isn't a case of standing on a mall corner handing out notes to all and sundry.......its a case of specifically sending ONE note to a business owner.....er.....offering business.

Seems all one needs is a business owner with an attitude problem...........and the 'shoot first ask questions later' abuse warning policy of LL.....and one has an absurdity that makes Alice In Wonderland look quite sane.

Technically, that is spamming. If I want to setup shop in some mall, I will look around and the last place I would go is the place where I received a spam invitation!

Lol ! By that sort of standard........if some guy says 'hi, how are you ?' in IM in a dance club then he is spamming................after all he's advertising something...himself.