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When did age play become illegal?

Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
05-11-2007 18:09
From: someone
This is what it seems like in Second Life. In a house we observe how a 13-year-old girl is violated several times one after the other. Other players watch


Um... I'm going to repeat that. "...we observe how a 13-year-old girl is violated several times one after the other."

They sat there, watching. While this happened. Over and over. Allowing this to happen.

And then have the audacity to get on their high horse.
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Motoko Kwon
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Join date: 5 Dec 2006
Posts: 84
05-11-2007 19:18
I´m from Germany and i dont look this Report cause its everytime exactly the same.

It´s simple you only need 1 or 2 Reporters then some politicans and then its perfect for such a totally stupid TV-Show.

But its always the same Problem, Poeple who dont know SL see this report and then this people are shure that Real Childrens beeing Raped in SL, and also many SL users think too, that this sort of Role Play must be punished.

That there a person send Real Child Pornograpie to the reporters is another thing and this person must be punsihed by the law, shure.

But normally here on the Main Grid no User is a RL Child, and if here are RL Childs then this users dont run around as childs Avatars.



But i´´m shure now after this that this is banned by LL the next thing would be Furrys, then BDSM and after that all other content so in around 1 Year we have here a SL only with disney like avatars, wearing clothes which covers entire body.

So Your world your immagination doesnt fit , cause as long as no law is broken or the TÒS is ignored by the users there shouldnt be any REason for banning or deleting a account, and also i thingk LL shouldnt directly say " yes " to everything which someone from the TElevision says
Rei Antwerp
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Join date: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 15
05-11-2007 20:22
I am not using Second Life until I can obscure my identity from Linden Labs. I trusted them, but when they "report" consenting adults for graphical representations... I cannot tolerate this.

Edit: I only qualify this if, in fact, real photographs of real children were in fact being distributed on SL. That is not clear, and it is something LL has been reluctant to speak on. I presume that's because they are getting threatened from one of the two "outed" users who may have a legitimate defamation of character case against LL.

It is unfortunate Linden Labs has become Thought Police. Until today, I thought they were carefully navigating a sensitive issue. Now they've just resorted to appeasing people... most of which don't realize the issues at hand.

And in case you want to drag age into this... you could make the same case about a dozen other issues in SL, I don't need to. The fact that Thought Policing is going into action here is far too a slippery slope to permit Linden Labs to have my contact info.

Linden Labs, you need to take a Second Look at how you're thought policing Second Life.

It is also equally unfortunate that German Media has mixed up multiple issues, which have driven LL to sending out such mixed messages. Locking out accounts in an overbearing action... fine, I understand such mistakes happen. But giving government authorities contact information "proactively" will wind LL up with a major law suit. Try me.
Ivor Rident
The funk of 40,000 years
Join date: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 57
05-11-2007 23:46
There remain only a few questions to me : What if someone plays in his/her own virtual home with two own avis, one a grown-up and one a child, so called sexual animations. Is that Sex ? Is that child ponography ? Is that a crime ?

Germany says yes, it is a crime.

If this is a crime , then what about the billions of murders which happen every day via the internet in so called ego-shooter games ? Is every murder then a crime ? If being consequent officials have to say so. How to punish every single "murderer" ?

If Germany decides to ban and forbid every possible access to SL and every online-ego-shooter game, and thats the only opportunity they have to prevent from access to what they call "child pornography" and "mass murder fantasies", we are not far away from China e.g. who bans access to websites about system critical contents, we are no more far away from Iran who bans websites of critical content and we are no more far away from 1933 !

Are systems of animated pixels really able to show "Sex", "child pornography" and "mass murders" ? Or are that mappings, pictures and images of that and the realisation occurs in everyone's own mind ? So if that's the case the problem never was the gun, the sword, Second Life, Counterstrike or any other "oline video game". The problem is the human being !
Sable Till
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Join date: 1 May 2006
Posts: 9
05-12-2007 02:11
From: Ivor Rident
There remain only a few questions to me : What if someone plays in his/her own virtual home with two own avis, one a grown-up and one a child, so called sexual animations. Is that Sex ? Is that child ponography ? Is that a crime ?

Germany says yes, it is a crime.


Something I didn't realise is that this is also a crime in the US. I guess the assumption is that the Supreme Court will rule it unconstitutional as soon as a case gets there but it's only an assumption and you never know.
Haravikk Mistral
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Join date: 8 Oct 2005
Posts: 2,482
05-12-2007 05:27
The big issue is how far does it go? If this is our world and our world and our imagination, then LL must be willing to stand up for people who just so happen to be imagining strange things. If they're committing a real crime with actual child-pornography etc then they should be held accountable (as in this case).
But if ALL they're doing is pretending without getting in the way of people who may object (in this case the reporters have obviously hunted for and followed these people) then we need assurances that LL will stand up for their right to do that.

Otherwise we pave the way for accusations of all kinds of 'crimes' that will tear SL to bits and remove a ton of the appeal and huge portions of SL's audience.
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Flavian Molinari
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Posts: 662
05-12-2007 08:05
With an age verification system in place it is reasonable to expect no RL children will be in world. So if someone wants to play sex cartoons with another adult then no harm no foul.

As for Vampire play, good for them. Again it's cartoon fantasy land, no harm no foul.

I personally find goatse disgusting. I don't think is should be illegal though. Who cares really. It's not up to me or the government to legislate morality in the bedroom.

People love to pass moral judgment on others and say "There otta be a law"

If someone wants to dress as a chicken and have sex with someone dressed as Colonel Sanders it's their business. No RL chickens or children are involved.
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Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
05-12-2007 08:18
From: Flavian Molinari
If someone wants to dress as a chicken and have sex with someone dressed as Colonel Sanders it's their business. No RL chickens or children are involved.


OMG! You just started a whole new fetish!

KFC now stands for Kentucky Fuc... nah... that one was too easy.

/me starts work on a chicken AV for Flavian.
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Flavian Molinari
Broadly Offensive Content
Join date: 1 Aug 2004
Posts: 662
05-12-2007 08:43
From: Mickey McLuhan
OMG! You just started a whole new fetish!

KFC now stands for Kentucky Fuc... nah... that one was too easy.

/me starts work on a chicken AV for Flavian.



So do you have anything meaningful to ad to this thread or are you always a troll?
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Zaphod Kotobide
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Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
05-12-2007 08:47
I think we have to take a more global perspective on this, and future similar issues which will undoubtedly arise. The majority of "legal or not legal" discussions throughout the forums are constraining the issue to US laws for the most part, where the debate is far from over, and the issue far from settled. If a party to a sexual age-play scene happens to be physically located in a country whose laws actually do specifically prohibit such depictions, seems to me there's a problem. I'm not certain, but I believe Australia and the UK are among jurisdictions where prohibition extends to digitally created images, such as would be the case in a Second Life sexual age-play scene. Probably Germany as well, since that's where this current issue originated.

I think Linden Lab is simply realizing that the policies they create and enforce need to have a broader influence than just the laws of the United States, where resident participation is now a minority.

My personal opinion: There is no such thing as unlimited freedom in Second Life. Whether or not a particular activity harms or offends another, I do believe that those who would push the envelope, and test the outer edges of what is generally acceptable from a social or legal standpoint, should be prepared to accept the consequences of their actions. The rest of us should be prepared to accept the fact that the harder people push against these outer edges, the more restrictive the platform is going to become.
Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
05-12-2007 08:53
From: Flavian Molinari
So do you have anything meaningful to ad to this thread or are you always a troll?


WHOAH! Easy there, young man.

First off, why the attack? I was playing around. I found your line about dressing like a chicken and Col. Sanders to be amusing and was showing my appreciation.

Secondly, I think I've "ad"ded meaningful dialogue to this thread, as well as others. Did you read it at all?
Was this a comment on the post quoted or all the others in this topic?
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Elanthius Flagstaff
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05-12-2007 09:00
From: Flavian Molinari

People love to pass moral judgment on others and say "There otta be a law"


Sadly (and much to my surprise) in the US, the UK and Germany (at least) there already IS a law and adult on child avatar sex is quite literally illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon#Legal_status_in_the_United_States

"On 30 April 2003, President George W. Bush signed into law the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) which again criminalizes cartoon child pornography."
Kevin Susenko
Voice Mentor
Join date: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 198
05-12-2007 09:15
From: Elanthius Flagstaff
Sadly (and much to my surprise) in the US, the UK and Germany (at least) there already IS a law and adult on child avatar sex is quite literally illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon#Legal_status_in_the_United_States

"On 30 April 2003, President George W. Bush signed into law the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) which again criminalizes cartoon child pornography."


I guess that answers the thread's question then. It became illegal in 2003.
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Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
05-12-2007 09:31
From: Kevin Susenko
I guess that answers the thread's question then. It became illegal in 2003.

Yes and no. This has been debated, and is still in debate, on many of the other threads.
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Elanthius Flagstaff
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05-12-2007 09:35
From: Mickey McLuhan
Yes and no. This has been debated, and is still in debate, on many of the other threads.



There's no yes or no about it, and excuse me for quoting wikipedia again but the PROTECT act
  1. Prohibits computer-generated child pornography.
  2. Prohibits drawings, sculptures, and pictures of such drawings and sculptures depicting minors in (Miller test) obscene OR engaged in sex acts.
Assuming I'm not mistaken then it seems clear as day to me.
Vryl Valkyrie
Owner of 3D Concepts
Join date: 30 May 2006
Posts: 257
05-12-2007 09:39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon#Legal_status_in_the_United_States

Yay.. something positive to say about Uncle Sam.


Vryl Valkyrie
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Tsu Goodliffe
Registered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 86
05-12-2007 09:42
From: Kevin Susenko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk8uNWF77gg

There's the report.

And the transcript: http://www.swr.de/report/-/id=233454/nid=233454/did=2060062/1h0wega/index.html

Here's my attempt at a translation. I'm not a native speaker so feel free to correct anything.


Does this effect Baby furs such as myself who are Adult baby's? Last time I checked wikipedia.org babyfurs was a lifestyle. when did this change?
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[20:02] Tsu Goodliffe: T3 50$mouthly -_- lol
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[20:13] Tsu Goodliffe: Can I quote you on what you just said Lol
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Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
05-12-2007 09:48
The debate is over the wording of the actual law, not the summation.
If you go by the summation, then yes, it is clear.

However, if you read the actual law, the words "indistinguishable from" make it a little hazier.
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Sys Slade
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Join date: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 626
05-12-2007 09:57
For those who don't trust wikipedia as a definitive source, here's from the act itself (my bolding):
From: someone
1466A. Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children
‘‘(a) IN GENERAL.—Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that
‘‘(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and
‘‘(B) is obscene; or
‘‘(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and
‘‘(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(1), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

(b) ADDITIONAL OFFENSES.
Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly possesses a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that
‘‘(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and
‘‘(B) is obscene; or
‘‘(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or
opposite sex; and
‘‘(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
or attempts or conspires to do so, shall be subject to the penalties provided in section 2252A(b)(2), including the penalties provided for cases involving a prior conviction.

(c) NONREQUIRED ELEMENT OF OFFENSE.
It is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exist.


(d) CIRCUMSTANCES.
The circumstance referred to in subsections (a) and (b) is that
‘‘(1) any communication involved in or made in furtherance of the offense is communicated or transported by the mail, or in interstate or foreign commerce by any means, including by computer, or any means or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce is otherwise used in committing or in furtherance of the commission of the offense;
‘‘(2) any communication involved in or made infurtherance of the offense contemplates the transmission or transportation of a visual depiction by the mail, or in interstate or foreign commerce by any means, including by computer;
‘‘(3) any person travels or is transported in interstate or foreign commerce in the course of the commission or in furtherance of the commission of the offense;
‘‘(4) any visual depiction involved in the offense has been mailed, or has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce by any means, including by computer, or was produced using materials that have been mailed, or that have been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce by any means, including by computer; or
‘‘(5) the offense is committed in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in any territory or possession of the United States.


Goodbye ageplay :)
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Elanthius Flagstaff
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05-12-2007 10:03
From: Mickey McLuhan
The debate is over the wording of the actual law, not the summation.
If you go by the summation, then yes, it is clear.

However, if you read the actual law, the words "indistinguishable from" make it a little hazier.


OK, I'll give you that although the reference to cartoons and paintings as also being illegal seems to clear that point up.

Regardless, unless you're a lawyer I'm pretty sure your and my opinion are irrelevant. I guess anyone who depicts children and adults having sex in SL can avoid entering the US or make their argument to the Supreme Court if they ever get that far.
Usagi Musashi
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05-12-2007 10:11
Another thread that should be closed due to people pushing their personal pro views of PRO Underage AGEROLE on sl......Gesh LLABs has stated that this type od age play is not allowed and some are only flaming the issues for pure pleasure of getting people allworkup over this issues. Stupid Stupid people! isnt ReaL Life Bad enought with children getting abused sexually and emotionally? Well Look like you DON`T care......caring more about your own sick RP games then Others that have been hurt in RL with this typic.If you don`t have anything better to do in your life then bitch about Age play RP then you.........forget it!
Tsu Goodliffe
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Join date: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 86
05-12-2007 10:26
My Question is, I'm a small avatar, a Baby fur, but Just because my "AV" Is always small doesn't make me a child, nor does it mean anything, the question is, does this effect adult baby's who use the lifestyle/fetish, With all these debates its hard to get a answerer.
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[20:02] Tsu Goodliffe: T3 50$mouthly -_- lol
[20:13] Teeple Linden: I think he's looking everywhere...and your T3 is making me jealous. I pay that much for standard Cable (although Cox is excellent in this area)
[20:13] Tsu Goodliffe: Can I quote you on what you just said Lol
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Sys Slade
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05-12-2007 10:32
From: Tsu Goodliffe
the question is, does this effect adult baby's who use the lifestyle/fetish, With all these debates its hard to get a answerer.

If you get your kicks from grown men in nappies, no problem.
If you get your kicks from young children in nappies, big problem.

It's the depiction of children in sexual acts, rather than use of objects associated with children in a sexual setting (nappies, dummies, school uniforms, lollipops etc).
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Tsu Goodliffe
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05-12-2007 10:34
From: Usagi Musashi
Another thread that should be closed due to people pushing their personal pro views of PRO Underage AGEROLE on sl......Gesh LLABs has stated that this type od age play is not allowed and some are only flaming the issues for pure pleasure of getting people allworkup over this issues. Stupid Stupid people! isnt ReaL Life Bad enought with children getting abused sexually and emotionally? Well Look like you DON`T care......caring more about your own sick RP games then Others that have been hurt in RL with this typic.If you don`t have anything better to do in your life then bitch about Age play RP then you.........forget it!



Just because some of us are proud of who we are and will stand for who we are, Doesn't mean we don't care about IRL, I have donated countless items to Red Cross and such not for kids like that, I have Done 100mile walks for kids who got abused, to state that I Do Care, But thats not the point the point is, Not all Babyfurs are age players, and I've read this whole thread from top to bottom and I hate to say it but I'm actually lost, My question is, does this Refer to anyone who likes to Act babyish or feel babyish, or just "Age Players Alone, Even if they are Legally "of Age"

Can anyone answerer this
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[20:02] Tsu Goodliffe: T3 50$mouthly -_- lol
[20:13] Teeple Linden: I think he's looking everywhere...and your T3 is making me jealous. I pay that much for standard Cable (although Cox is excellent in this area)
[20:13] Tsu Goodliffe: Can I quote you on what you just said Lol
[20:14] Teeple Linden: Sure!
Elanthius Flagstaff
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Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
05-12-2007 10:35
From: Tsu Goodliffe
My Question is, I'm a small avatar, a Baby fur, but Just because my "AV" Is always small doesn't make me a child, nor does it mean anything, the question is, does this effect adult baby's who use the lifestyle/fetish, With all these debates its hard to get a answerer.


It seems clear to me that if you used your baby avatar to have sex with an adult avatar and live in the US (or at any point in the future entered the US) then the federal prosecuter would love to throw you in prison. I guess some people here would argue over the various points of semantics but the intent of the law is pretty clear to me (the constitutionality is NOT clear).

BTW

"In February 2006, Senator John McCain introduced S.519, which would add a mandatory 10-year sentence in jail to anyone who uses the Internet to violate the PROTECT Act."

Also, I guess I was mistaken earlier and cartoon child porn is 100% legal in the UK.
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