Is there a list of approved wagering devices?

Well, crap. One of my tenants has rezzed a game (oh, hell: it's this "Deal" deal) that has all the trappings of a slot machine, for my money. Well, not literally for *my* money, since I'll never pull the one arm of this bandit. Generally I try to let my tenants do whatever they like--but this thing is sitting on land I own, and looks for all the world like something that should be a violation of ToS. I thought we used to have a sticky in this forum, describing what were approved gambling devices, but of course back then I couldn't have cared less.

So, does anybody know if there is such a list somewhere?

If not, would it be an appropriate topic for a support question, or is there some other means of researching this on my own?

And finally, if the thing somehow is still allowed despite being an obvious game of chance, how much of a jerk would I be to tell my tenant he can't rez it here anyway--there being nothing explicit in the lease about such things?

(Just to save effort, I don't think there's much point in rehashing the supposed criteria for "gambling" devices. I know damned well this thing is a gambling device, but I also know that the "game of skill" loophole is wide enough to fit the Las Vegas strip, with room for Macau, depending on the Whim of Linden™.)

i would get a person on live chat and ask them to come look.but frankly if it walk like a duck and talks like a duck...... it's a witch err i mean duck

I noticed the other day that someone was either warned or suspended for using a Deal machine. Wagering is banned, just refuse to allow anything that in anyway could be a gambling machine.

Agreed

And, whether specifically mentioned in the lease or not, you are still the land owner and, therefore, your call as to what to allow on your land.

I think for it to be legal you must have a freeplay machine as well. In every slingo/deal hall I've ever played in, there have been freeplay machines available for those who don't want to gamble $L.

Qie get Linden guidance, as has been said. There really ISN'T an "approved" list as in order to approve then there would have to be some sort of compliancy issue to comply with. LL does NOT have a gaming licence, and the laws governing RL gaming are terrifyingly complex.

DAMN YOU you're making me most something from my rl workplace which relates to my actual job. Urgh! I might as well not be on lunch

***edit*** here we go again - if you put money into something to gamble on the prize you get then it is wagering. "Games of Skill" should be called contests IMO as a "Game of Chance" is a fixed odds game where the the result is produced by a random number generator - and a Game of Skill is one where the player influences the outcome by choosing/acting ... such as BlackJack, Roulette, Craps etc ... the table games.

That's the definition I work with, anyway, RL.

As others have said, there is no "List". The rules are intentionally vague, and their interpretation is at the whim of the Liason choosing to enforce them. At best, is a thread where folks have posted which games have/have not gotten them into trouble. (You can find it here: /327/79/203896/1.html)

That said, I'm not sure the level at which Linden holds estate owners responsible for what their tenants do in this regard. To be safe, you might want to put a support ticket in on the question. Regardless of whether they respond to it or not, at the very least you'll have a little bit of a paper trail to point to just in case the issue were to come up later.

The rules are not even vague. They are quite explicit. If it involves (i) a wager (a payment with a promise of the possibility of a greater payout) (ii) and any element of chance similar to random number generation which could influence the outcome of the results of the game, then it violates the wagering policy.

The inclusion of any element of skill is IRRELEVANT if there is the aforementioned element of chance involved. This is why poker violated the wagering policy.

Deal, Slingo, Zyngo, Devil May Care and all their variants all violate the wagering policy but for whatever reason Linden Lab personnel simply choose to ignore the wagering policy and knowingly allow these games to exist.

There is no list because Linden Lab does not want to go on record as having approved any games that might consitute unlawful internet gambling under the UIGEA. The best that the game creators have is an unofficial ok from a Linden Lab member that is not even properly vetted through it's in house legal counsel. I know this because my correspondence with one of the in-house lawyers from its legal department clearly evidence that he had never actually examined the game first hand and had merely relied on incomplete and inaccurate information passed onto him by other Linden Lab personnel.

That being said, you can probably let it go. Aside from the fact that Linden Lab intentionally does not enforce the wagering policy against Deal, even when Linden Lab enforces the policy, the first action is always a warning and a return of the offending game to the owner. It's not clear to me if the warning would only be issued to your tenant or to yourself as well, but you might want to ask Linden Lab about that. If you want to be conservative about it you could return the item to the tenant and explain to him that notwithstanding that a Linden Lab member may have approved the game, you just don't feel comfortable with having it there based on the fact that it violates both the word and spirit of the wagering policy and that Linden Lab has historically not been known to be reliable on its stance regarding wagering games. If they are reasonable I'm sure they will understand your motivation to protect your account.

Is there a list of approved wagering devices?

Yes, and here it is:
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Huh? I've never heard skill applied to Routlette. It's certainly a fixed odds game, and a roulette wheel is nothing more than a physical, random number generator. The only skill involved is knowing which of the numerous available bets has the best odds, something that can easily be looked up. So how does that fit in as a game of skill?

You're right, Dagmar - the rules themselves are indeed explicit. What I should have called out as vague, is their interpretation & enforcement.

As noted in some of the posts above, whether a game like "Roulette" falls within the guidelines depends upon interpretation. A loose interpretation would say that Roulette is within the rules simply because there are elements of skill involved. A strict interpretation would say that its in violation simply because there are elements of chance involved.

Of course, the safest option is to assume Linden will enforce the most strict interpretation. But if you're someone who uses games that fall within the grey area, I can see where you'd want to opt for the more loose interpreation, and throw caution to the wind until Linden says something.

I'll raise the same issue I raised with Cherry: Since when is there any skill involved in Roulette? Is SL roulette something different from RL roulette, which has no element of skill?

There are plenty of "games" that should be covered by the gambling ban if they were following the rules strictly.

It seems to me, instead, whether a game is allowed or not is entirely based on the arbitrary opinion of a couple of Lindens tasked with anti-gambling enforcement.

You never raised the issue with me since I never referred to roulette as a game of skill. However, there are betting strategies that people use in roulette including the Martingale system, Reverse Martingale system, and Money Management System which attempt to minimize losses and maximize gains on roulette. Many people consider the ability to utilize these gambling strategies to be a skill. It certainly requires more skill than matching a bunch of numbers to another bunch of numbers on a board like all these slot machine variants that one sees all over Second Life. That being said as mentioned before, skill is irrelevant with regards to the applicability of the Second Life wagering policy if there is an element of chance that may influence the outcome of the game.

The skill is holding your lips right....

My apologies, it was Cherry who said roulette was a game of skill.

The Martingale and similar systems are money management systems that are independent of the game, and have no effect on the chance or frequency of winning, so they play no role in determining whether or not a particular game is a game of skill or chance or both. Martingale can be used with any game with known odds. Martingale is also so simple that I don't believe it requires any more skill than those number matching games - though since I've never played them, I won't swear to it.

just to inform you all "DEAL" is accepted by linden labs despite how you feel about it being gambling. linden labs checks with their gaming lawyers before allowing a game to be accepted. there are games i have made that have been rejected and games like DEAL, Mindspin, Scratch it, Nudgers, DEAL Extreme that have been approved.

im pretty sure that linden labs knows what they are doing. and wouldnt aprove the games if they were going to get in trouble. you can take whatever wording you want as literal as you want. but face the fact that the games are here to stay for now.

as for anyone who has gotten a DEAL machine returned. simply contact zara linden and explain the situation. it will be researched. its most likely an newer linden who does not have knowledge of the games that are allowed in second life.

that is if it is your DEAL game

that is the problem with games, people can name them anything they want so one DEAL game may not be the same as another DEAL game

when in doubt I would contact a linden, or look for the creators name, contact them and ask for proof that the lindens approved it (chat log, email, something like that maybe, even though it can be faked)

but my first choice would always be check official channels and seek out linden advice

Isnt it said there is not offical list? But i always throught there was........and i right or wrong?

there may be an unpublished official list for linden use only. im sure they keep track of this stuff somehow.

That is logical.......I sure hope they have some organization about what is and what not.....Shhouldnt there be a official listing of what are and whats not.......

The way I see it, if I have to pay to play and then try to win more than I put in, it's gambling.

Get it back on course........................

This thread kinda got necro-posted @#17, but the other thread has as close to an answer as I suppose we'll get, at /327/b7/254373/1.html#post2022886. This isn't to say I'm entirely thrilled with the state of affairs (no official list), but if LL has decided this is adequate protection for them, then I guess whatever gamblers and gambling machine scripters do with their L$s is between them.

In the absence of such a list, I've no idea how anyone would know whether or not to AR a particular device. Which may be rather the point: if challenged by a financial institution about electronic fund transfers to online gaming, LL can point at their policy and process, such as it is, and everybody's happy (at least until Treasury gets involved). Probably the same logic as the almost completely non-functional IDV thing: somewhere between whitewash and quaintly charming wishful thinking.

Qie, as it's your land, you're ultimately responsible for anything that happens on it. It'll be you that receives the LL warning or suspension, not the owner of the machines.

If you're concerned whether something's legal or not, err on the side of caution and don't allow it. If you don't already do it, add a list of "don't do this" in your rental notecard. It makes it so much easier, when you tell them to bugger off