Systems we can implement in world to make it harder for "fly by night" scoundrels.

Thanks for saying I don't create good quality content.

You are correct. SL will probably survive without me. My details is on file, as I am a Premium tier-paying member. However, if this was as requirement when I joined, I would not have become a Premium member. And the 100's of USD I spent in SL would not have happened either. I came originally because I had the freedom to do things here.

But as you say, me and people that feel like me is not a loss to the economy. You can do without us.

Argent, I sincerely doubt that.
Plus, as soon as you reached the level of knowledge to actually build something you want to give away, how hard is it to verify your identity?

You did give me something to think about though.
Second Life does need verification of people who want to be able to transfer stuff. At least in my opinion, as it is impossible (almost) to fight anonymous accounts when they scam with these transfers (i.e. putting copybotted items in freebie boxes).
Maybe a two tier system would work best: verify to transfer stuff for free, as soon as you want to charge, register for a business account.

I've got news for you. It's all going to be regulated. If the appearance of Zindra didn't give you a big, fat clue about the future of SL - nothing will.

I didn't say anything about transfer of items, I said content sales and money. There are already systems in place to catch large transfers of cash and the FBI already scrutinizes activities that smell like money laundering. What is missing is systems to shut down and catch stolen content for resale. Nobody is ever going to catch every sleezebag who releases stolen items full perm in a sandbox, but they can prevent those people from accepting money for sale of stolen goods.

How is a sim full of stolen content helping a small startup get a business going? There won't be a danger of a large business stopping anyone else from making a sex bed - ideas, methods, or systems are not subject to copyright protection. You cannot patent an idea either. You can patent a process, but someone else can still come up with a different process to do the same thing.

One of the things that convinced me to actually pay for my old Basic account after the 7 day trial was that I was able to make stuff and give it away and even sell it the first day I was in SL (and, yes, I did). If I couldn't do that, you guys wouldn't have any of my stuff. And I know quite a few people in the same position... so much of the best content is made by people who got excited about SL first... not people who decided to make money in SL.

And even the failures are important. It's like salmon. Most of them don't make it up the river, but without all the ones that didn't make it you wouldn't have any salmon next year.



I think this is more a matter of LL being unwilling to enforce the ToS. They'd have to track down and enforce it anyway, with business accounts, and they already have the ability to ban by machine and IP address and payment info. I don't think that they really need more tools to enforce this, just the will.

I would not agree with this. Why should I have to register just to transfer stuff? I thought SL was all about freedom to exercise my imagination. And part of that is transferring stuff. LL is changing that with Zindra, and you want to do it even further. How far is it from this to "only this group of accounts may create items, because of all the griefers?"



Oh I know. And I don't like it at all.




Let's turn that around - how is preventing a newbie from opening a store until he's willing to give you whatever info you require (even if it's not legal for him to do so) going to help him start his business? Not every country has the same laws regarding personal information.

Here's a question for you - I make an animation that is substantially similar to one made by a prominent sex bed vendor, but I do it without seeing the original. One of a person giving oral sex to another person. Now granted, there are only a few ways to make such an animation - certain anatomical things dictate this. How do I prove that I created this animation myself, if the vendor decides to start filing DMCA takedown demands? What's stopping a large seller from just filing such demands on anything that is even close to what he sells?

Oh I'm sure your presents are lovely!.

It's a bit harsh if new residents can't transfer things to people. Maybe everything they transfer reverts to "no transfer" or something to limit damages, but a total ban on it... that's a tough one.

It might be really good to lay all the options out on a table and sort them from "easy and low impact" to "very effective but really harsh" and then sorta pick and choose.

It could be that five or ten mild changes acting together, would be about as effective as a single world~killing one at the top of the list.

Hehe, I guess that's a matter of opinion

Why shouldn't you?
Part of that freedom of exercising ones imagination, is running a copybot and spreading content people worked hard for all over the grid. This is happening for real. If registering to transfer stuff helps beating that, I am all in favor.
Do not forget it is only registering. Letting the provider whose service you use for free (still talking about the now anonymous accounts) know who you are, in order to get the ability to transfer things in your inventory. You can still build and explore without it, but not transfer.


Bummer. Things change. Really, a lot of things changed in the 2 years I was here, and a lot of them made me not happy. Think vat, think homestead prices.


Again, bummer. Linden Lab provides a service that people with a sufficient internet connection can use. They have to work within the law of their country (and Europe since they opened up there). If some country simply does not allow you to register your address and bank account (for example), too bad. (Are there countries that do that anyway). Complain at your country, not at LL in that case.


Was not aimed to me, but anyway: You have the original animation file. Plus you uploaded it to the servers. Animations cannot be ripped as far as I know. Plus they never will be the same frame by frame.

Some stream of consciousness stuff on this.

Someone compared LL to PayPal. So to say they are acting in a equivalent manner. Paypal acts as a bank. Pretty straight forward since they are one. Their fraud monitoring is to make sure that you pay for what you order and you get what you paid for. I haven't even heard of Paypal going after someone who sells say.. beaded necklaces because they copied the design of another beaded necklace maker. Which seems to be a common idea presented in this thread. I'm all for going after people who infringe on copyrights. But I do think it's incumbent on the seller to monitor the marketplace, not LL. We have them looking over our shoulders too much as it is.

I think LL should play the role of the court in a less keystone kops way. When a content creator finds streetcorner huskster selling his cloned wares, then the he files suit in court. Where the matter is adjudicated. This is where LL kind of sucks, they pay lipservice to the idea of content protection but from what I've read in here they really don't put a lot of effort into it. Sure it's a big job, now, because it seems to be out of control. But if they were to put a few bodies on looking at copy complaints and really drop the hammer on violators. Say, hash bans for life on every computer system the scufflaw and known alts (since rumor has it LL keeps list of suspected alts) has used. Once a few thousand accounts get nuked.. and might I add I would not be surprised to see a few "famous content creators" get hammered in the roundup... I can imagine the word on the street would be "dude, you don't want to clone that chair, the Lindens will kill you, and your entire family."

The only drawback to this plan.. it would mean LL would have to do wholesale extermination of accounts, which quite frankly, seems to be the last thing on their minds these days... unless you appear to be having too much fun in SL, then by all means they will do whatever they can go get rid of you. I do wish they would do something, all this angst is really eating into my playtime.

Of course it's a tough one Des, but it's even tougher to read the thread of RH (well the first one, the second one I was happy to read!).

Laying out the options is indeed great. I already changed my view to a two-tier system, for example. Plus, when reading your posting, you could say "transfer nothing but notecards". Or maybe even "transfer each item only once", if that is a possibility. Just wish LL would actually read these threads and do something with it. So much knowledge around here.

The main question in then: how many of those people would have minded to register their info, to be able to transfer what they made? They apparently noticed the fun it is to build, how hard is it then to register, in order to protect yourself? Because that is the case here Argent, the registration is there to protect the real creators. And to fight the copycats.


Agreed on this one


Any way of blocking on ip and machine is nonsense, and I think you know that. The average 18 year old can easily fake an ip number, and machine hashes can be hacked as well. Probably there are already clients there with the ability?
My idea behind the registration is, that as soon as Real Life information is needed, the average scammer will not provide. The 'fun' part of scamming will never outweight the risk of being prosecuted in RL.

And it CAN be done. I have a PayPal account that I use, and as soon as I did more business on it, my account was frozen suddenly. Needed to provide information that proved my RL information, in order to do certain things (don't remember what anymore).

I don't agree with copyright infringement in SL. However, I dislike giving up my freedoms here just because some people abuse it. Similarly, there are trolls on the forum. Restricting my ability to post here just because I /may/ troll as well doesn't sit right with me.

The question is not "would they have minded", but rather" would they have cared enough to get to the point where they minded or not"? Having to sign up to join a special program to see if you're interested enough to bother jumping through the hoops to join is kind of a catch-22 situation.

Indeed, that's why following the money is more likely to be productive than IP banning. But LL has a stated policy, at least, of doing both.

If there is one idea I would like to push, it is that there is no *single* answer to the problem. We need multiple means to thin out the copiers.

In respect of Tegg's idea above, my suggestion is limit selling L$ per month to the highest RL , monthly spending level you have paid for. In other words, if you paid $72 for an annual premium account, you can sell at most $72 worth of L$ per month. If you bought $100US of stuff in one month, you can cash out a max of $100US per month thereafter.

In other words, your cash out limit per month is equal to the highest cash in you put in any month before.

In respect of transfer limits, how about several limits on unverified accounts? For example:

- Any items you send, even if you made them, are marked (no trans), and max of 5 items a day
- Inventory limit of X items total on unverified accounts.

You want the limits lifted? Give us some ID.

I don't think Stroker would go for that.

Well that would put a lot of creators out of business, considering the majority of established creators wouldn't be putting any money in, only taking out profits. You may say they are not contributing to the pot then, but it's due to their creations that others bring money into the game to buy.

An established creator that has a full region puts in at least $295 a month, and could pay for 5 premium accounts @ 72 each for another $360 cash out limit (most of which they get back in stipend). Or buy some extra land for one month, pay the tier, and then sell it off. Or simply buy some L$ one time, and then sell it back later that month.

The only creators this would not work for are those who never went premium/owned land/bought L$, and sell entirely in rental shops and Xstreet. But you know, that looks a lot like scammers we are trying to stop, don't it?

So, are you counting them paying the $295 out of profits? which would mean they are not putting any cash in.

People who are actually making a living from SL need to be cashing out actual PROFIT, in US$, over and above expenses like regions. Your proposal would literally make it impossible to earn a net profit from SL. It would crash the economy, immediately.

The $295 a month for the tier on the region comes from their cash out of $L, as well as any premium fees.

Many creators are not premium, including myself. I do not own the land I trade on, I rent three homesteads and I do not buy $L. So according to you I am a scammer even though I have spent 2.5 years creating on two different accounts (yes this is an alt). I may not own the land, but I assist landowners in business and they inturn pay LL for the sims I rent.

My first account has owned mainland and been premium and even put in small amounts to get established, this account has not.

The last part could work, it is a bit like the idea Des came up with.

The first part could never work. When I look at the last year, the only money I put in has been US$ 72. Yet I payed around US 2000 within the last year indirect: renting my homestead, buying textures, full perm sculpts, tools. So how much would I be allowed to cash out? Probably nothing, as the tier for my 4096sqm of mainland gets payed out of profit. And even if I could cash out US$ 72 per month, I would not be too happy Every expense I made within the last year has been payed for out of profits, and I still cash out. As soon as that is not possible anymore, I am gone. As will many creators out there.

Well I am sure it would cost some creators. Still I think that if someone actually took the effort to create stuff, they are enough interested in the platform to register in order to sell. Combined with a limited transfer possibility like has been proposed before, this could work.
However, I do not think this is the way LL will think, they will either require registration to sell stuff, or not. And to be honest: no decision is going to please everyone.



And there we find the biggest problem: Making great policies is one, following up on them is another.

I think we are not connecting on the point here.

See, what ever is on the hover text is just another parameter of a prim. Just like it being X meters wide. If someone has the tools to copybot, they would just copy whichever store front counter they wanted. It would show the current password and days online and keep right on ticking in time with the one it hijacked. Only it will not be synced with your scriot. It will sync against the hijacked prim.

Most of the people who make cool stuff in SL don't sell any of it. They just make stuff and give it away. I was doing that for six months, and only taking money for custom script work, before I went "oh, hey, why don't I put a box out for sale and see if anyone buys it"? Just getting to that point is already filtering out a lot of salmon. Now you want to put a hydro power plant across the river.

"No decision" would please me.