Any place to file a complaint?

The permissions system in SL is well understood and full perms means copy/modify/transfer. It is completely wrong for a trader to block the modify permission and continue advertising his wares as 'full perms'. The deception is not justified by copy paranoia excuses: of course he or she would be perfectly right to cancel modify permissions if there is real concern that the work might be ripped off but the product should be clearly advertised as only 'copy/transfer'.

If I spent even a fraction of 75 dollars on a product, I would expect it to conform to the description it was advertised under.

AR that liar's ass.

I still think a non-confrontational approach is more likely to get the desired results than is throwing an AR into the mystical workings of G-Team.

And I'm still hesitant to call this "fraud". Yes, the animator knowingly sold product with inaccurately labeled permissions. No, not all animators call those permissions "full perm"--although some do, since long before Second Inventory came on the scene. (I have no idea *why* they used to make anims no-mod; perhaps to be able to recognize them by name for some reason? I really don't know.)

On the Madoff scale, this has to register pretty low. It's just not nearly as heinous as, say, an Estate owner who sells a sim out from under paid tenants.

If the animator involved were to read this thread, I really think his reaction would be something like "Oh crap, I knew I should have gotten 'round to changing those signs"-- as opposed to "Curses! Foiled again!"

And I think it would in fact help if that animator *did* get a look at this thread. There's nobody here who's saying it's really okay to sell the anims as "full perm." The dispute is about what path is likely to lead to the desired results. And about the definition of the word "fraud"--which is probably not much advancing the other, more practical issue.

Exactly. Even if she AR's the seller of the animations, she most likely will still be stuck with her no mod animations. Most responses she recieved here were to try to help her make the best of a bad situation and not saying the animation seller was right.

I hope she learns how to use the perfect sitter so she can get use out of the animations she purchased because an AR isn't likely to do much of anything.

That's a totally wrong post. It is totally wrong for a seller to advertise things as full perms when s/he knows that they are not. Whether or not there is a workaround is totally irrelevant. The posters stated that the items were full perms when the seller knew very well that they weren't and, like your post, that's totally wrong.

If the permissions system were really well understood, then the buyer would have understood that it makes no sense for someone selling animations at a high price to sell them c/m/t. This should have triggered the 'too good to be true' warning flag, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But the permissions system isn't well understood, and 'full perms' is not synonymous with copy/mod/transfer. If it were, then sellers wouldn't even say 'full permissions', they'd just use the c/m/t shorthand. Or they'd call them freebies, because that's what anything with c/m/t permissions will turn into.

The only time I've ever seen 'full perms' or 'full permissions' used is in a context where the intent is 'These are suitable for people who want to resell these items', often with explicit license provisions. The term is used for animations and textures, but not clothes or furniture.

It would make more sense for sellers of animations and textures to label them 'redistributable, subject to license terms', but that's not the way the terminology has evolved. Assuming that previous posts accurately describe common practice - namely that many but not all animation sellers use the term 'full perms' this way - then you can't assert that just because many people interpret 'full perms' to mean c/m/t that means it's the only legitimate definition.

That's a good example precisely because the terminology is, presumably, the result of explicit regulation. But consider that in the US, the FDA doesn't demand literal interpretations. You and I might think that "calorie-free" means zero calories, but in fact the FDA says it means fewer than 5 calories per serving. Likewise, "fat-free" doesn't mean zero fat, it means less than 0.5g of fat per serving. (See http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fdnewlab.html.)

Those of us used to thinking mathematically are often surprised and even offended by these practices. But that's the way the law around marketing works, whether or not we agree with it.

Yes it is. It very much is, under all circumstances apart from those having no reference to the c/m/t boxes at all.

I dont know if I'm able to post here the notecard you get when buying those "full perm" animations, and the long process you go through to be able to buy them.
First you have to submit an application giving landmarks to your stores, you cant buy unless you have a business which requires those animations, then if you're "admitted" you go to a separate space in their building (second floor) where you find the same animations you find in the first floor but instead of paying the 300L you pay for the same animation down you pay 2000 for each one. You then get a notecard that states they have a listing of the animations you bought and that you cant use them in other way than in your creations, meaning you cant sell them as animations or balls and you cant share them. Both things are ok with me, as I need them to build!. The entrance to the second floor has a huge sign with red letters stating FULL PERMISSIONS for builders. I'm a builder, I am in the group allowed to buy (was, as I left it yesterday) and was willing to pay what he was charging for the animations.
Yes, I tried talking to him, I already posted the conversation I had with him, I have the idea that you get more with honey than kicking, but he is not willing to talk, hiding his head like an ostrich.
No, I'm not lazy, if I were lazy I wouldnt bother working in SL, I would simply sit in a beach and chat with people. No, I'm not rich, if I were, I simply wouldnt bother working either. I work in SL because I love building, I work in SL because that's the way I can get what I like in here, so I can pay my tiers and have a home, so I can be a productive part of the sl society.
I have been attacked by one of the people posting in the forums, probably the animator using an alt, because he has NO reason to call me lazy, rich and bitch as he doesnt know a single thing about me. Most everybody has been very helpful,and I'm grateful for your input. I already found the work around the use of the animations, I will be able to use them, but I still think this man is misrepresenting himself promising something his customers are not getting. Yes, I think there should be a business bureau in sl as we're spending real money in each transaction and not everybody is honest with what they sell.

Yes it is. Full permissions *under the Linden Labs permissions system* is C/M/T. And full permissions *in common usage in SL* is C/M/T. That's not "mathematical thinking", there's no conflict between "geek speak" and "normal speak"... that's just normal ordinary usage in SL... and any other set of permissions isn't "full permissions"... and advertising something "full permissions" and not selling them C/M/T isn't "marketing", it's "deceptive advertising".

Full-perms is ALL PERMISSIONS. What's so hard to understand about that? Intent doesn't matter. Possible misuse doesn't matter. If you advertise them as FULL PERMS, then I expect to receive them as MOD/COPY/XFER OK.

The object name is sometimes an important part of the perms. Yes, there's a "workaround" for Perfect Sitter but what if she want's to use them elsewhere and there's no good option??

This may not be outright fraud but it certainly is false advertising. (Notes that she is also agreeing with Argent and wondering if the world is going to spin off its axis.)

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Full_Perm

I think you need to read that post again. He wasn't calling you a bitch, he was talking about responses he got from animations creators when he asked them WHY they do this.



Edit: I'm only curious really about one thing. You would like to be able to modify the script to change the name of the animation, is it that much more difficult to modify the notecard than it is to modify the script? I'm wondering if it might be worth your time to ask one of our gifted scripters (which I am not one) to simply give you something you can copy and paste to the notecard to make it work?

Sorry, but you are wrong. Full Perms = c/m/t. I bought quite a few full perm animations at high prices, and they really are FULL perms. Full means full. Everything. No restrictions. Especially no hidden ones that can only be discovered after a purchase. There are quite a few reasons for wanting exactly that, even though the animations themselfs still couldn't be modified. The ability to rename them to a more suitable name was already noted, also the wish to avoid the trouble that your own customers come running to you "Hey, you sold me that chair as modify, but in the inventory it says it isn't, give me my money back!" just because the included no-mod animation messes up the whole object name.

There is no way around it, you have to deliver what you advertise.

If I need something that badly, I'm really glad I have Qavimator, (free download) and keep right on hammering on it until I figured out how to create the animations I need. Just $10L to upload the animation and it's full perm every time without all that nosebleed and hideous expense.

(well okay.. maybe more than just one upload is needed sometimes. There is a difference at times between the avi on the program and our SL avi)

Many uploads But that's where the Beta grid with it's free money comes in very handy.

I'm with Pep and Snickers here - I don't remember it happening before but I've agreed with everything that Argent has said in this thread. I hope it doesn't happen again!

/me runs out of thread screaming when he realises he has agreed with Argent *and* Phil.

Pep (but rushes back to grab Snickers' hand and pull her out with him)

Now I'm worried. I usually agree with Argent, Phil, and especially Ordinal (whose posts I was very happy to see: they've been too rare lately). Which is no mean feat, given that the intersection of their opinions is close to the null set. And yet here, I'm seeing it differently.

So I must be wrong.

Okay then: That devious animator is a mustache-twirling villain out to scam us all, and tortures puppies in his spare time.

Happy now?

You're still my #1 poster, Qie

/me shudders

It's worse than that! He posts lolcats in these forums under another name!

Pep (can't think of a worse crime)

*bump for Pep

Ok, i am a builder and i buy things full perm. But when its advertised FULL PERM full means all, not implied. When u are creating you must keep in mind there could be possible noobies buying and when they see the words FULL PERM, there not gonna know about any thing implied cause its an animations. I believe this is fraud and needs to be dealt with quickly and swiftly. I know Linden labs can move fast took them no time to shut down the commune. Also remember the ole saying customer is always right.... Well I believe it applies here. And when you buy something Full Perm you should not have to go an extra mile to use it in ur creation unless it was made known before purchase.

Just my two cents

The first person to complain to is the seller !

Hopefully he will be nice and give a full refund.
His IM to you that you posted sounded like he was trying to be helpfull.
If he is a helpfull type person you will have MUCH quicker success dealing directly with him than finding a person to complain to.

If that doesnt work you can AR for fraud and take legal action.

Irrespective of what you do, you will NEVER get full mod versions of his animations. The law doesnt work like that, but you should get a full refund.

Obviously if he does give you a refund, then later suspects his animations being used in your products or being distributed by you, he will sue you and that will involve much larger amounts of money.