Is an exploit driving up classifieds prices?

well only LL can get Proof if some one is using it, and I doubt they would Show the public that proof due to the fact they would be admiting that thier game has a HUGE FLAW. All we can do as the public is PROVE that such flaws, glitches, bugs, hacks, w\ever do infact exist.

I think doing this with any sort of established brand or reputation is way, way too risky for anybody to try.
I can see it done with disposable accounts already selling copybotted items or similar; they'd vault to the top of the list, get a couple of days of sales, and then get the hell out of dodge.
But then we'd see new names and places show up at the top of the list; not somebody with an established brand and fixed location.

Im not denying that there is an exploit. But just assuming the majority of the most exspensive ads (prior to the inception of this thread) are fraudulant is foolish. I was looking at the clasified listings just this past weekend and noted that of the top 20 paid ads, I know at least 10 of the business owners. They all make a lot of money in SL and 100K - 200K on a classifed can be earned back in a few hours trading. Add to that the fact that some of these businesses are backed by RL ventures, the advertising costs are pretty negligable. I dont think some people really grasp how much money it's possible to make on a daily basis in SL. If you did then you would understand why 100k on a classified ad is no big deal.

You are right in principle, but the problems arise when what happens in SL starts to mismatch with real world capitalism.

In order for SL to develop as a business platform, it has to be possible to run a competitive business in SL that pays its costs and makes a reasonable profit. If that is not possible, then SL's economy is inherently unstable. If a large number of SL "businesses" are buying competitive advantage by their owners spending all of the business income plus paying in extra real money, but are making no profit because (for example) the owners are rich IRL and only care about "winning", or the owners are an RL business which is doing fine for profit and considers SL just a marketing exercise, then that damages that model horribly. It creates the risk of an economy arising where running a profitable business in SL is impossible, because as soon as you take out even a dollar in profit, you lose out in the race.

Furthermore, even a rich profitable purely-SL business could create a problem - if all market positions are too firmly entrenched then SL stops being a viable platform for new business, which means that LL will be depending on the consumer sector for every new customer. Based on the statistics that users get to see, it seems that SL isn't ready to do that yet.

Then business needs to evolve. Personally, the thought of rl companies coming in and producing this kind of work is intimidating, but as a platform for business, it is natural. What if American Apparel actually bothered to learn SL culture and became as big or bigger than Armidi by making quality stuff we actually wanted to wear?

There are rl companies doing business "doing it right" that you may not know about. RL UK lingerie company Carnal partners with Alienbear Jewelry - she designs exquisite pieces that match their lingerie. I haven't bought it yet, but the Moscou lingerie set is well done and is representative of a smart co-branding approach with an all-SL business.

If more of these proliferated, what would really be unfair? They make quality things, and people want to buy. If more professional designers came in and "got it" it would be the natural course of things for this type of business to rise. No one is firmly entrenched because there is no shortage of a need for fresh, new, quality content.

Even Standard Oil wasn't too big to fail.

If they do it by building as an SL business, making quality things (possibly with real life tie-ins) that people want to wear - then that's fine.

If they do it by paying a few hundred thousand for the entire first page of classifieds, plus a 20-island fashion show archipelago, and giving the actual SL clothes away for practically nothing; by running the SL business at a huge loss, because they don't _need_ to make any profit from SL, the increased RL clothes sales make up for it... then, ugh. That's ripping the "business platform" out of SL and making it just a fancy interactive advertising conduit.



That might be true in some fields, but it isn't true in all (scripted items being an obvious example). And moreover, SL has yet to show that it can actually support consumption-only users very well at all.

Personally, I think this is the way most would go about it, just use SL as a way to bombard us with more advertising. I don't think most would bother to become part of th SL community. but even if they did, they still won't get my business.

Yes, this is the key factor. The Consumer still has a vote as to where they shop. This company you mention could bombard all they want, but if they don't have what people want, and don't do what is necessary to become part of the SL community, they will fail. They can throw 20 million dollars a month into SL, and they would still fail.

On another note, SL already isn't a one to one match with any Real Life Economy, because of the Lindex. In a real economy money continues to circulate in the system, in SL, a lot of it leaves as cash outs, and a lot comes in as Linden Purchases. The SL Economy is in fact an appendage of the RL economy.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I don't believe there are any exploits as such - only doors left wide open by LL's bad design.

What we've seen with the first one is that someone can place an ad, not log in etc. and the ad continues to run. That's not an exploit. With the second one, we've seen that ads can be placed without having the funds to pay for them. That's not an exploit either. It's just extremely bad design by LL. If I were LL, I'd be tempted to insist that Yumi pays for the ad

A classified ad cannot, in fact, be placed without having the money to pay for it. The method I found is far more involved than that and would be considered "an attack" by computer security standards.

The "place an ad and it continues to run but sets your account to the red" as far as I'm aware _was_ a design issue - a feature so that a business owner wouldn't have to worry about losing their classified if their cash flow on a given day didn't cover the ad renewal cost, as long as they could pay it back in the future. Certainly there were a lot of complaints about lost classifieds a while back.

And, fortunately for me, LL aren't in the business of charging people US$37594 to find bugs in their software.

Sure.. but if having high spots in the classifieds isn't a way to attract consumer attention, why are any of the established businesses in those spots, paying for them?

Probably such a thing wouldn't succeed, you're right, but that doesn't stop it damaging the economy during the failure process.

It would harm the economy, yes. A company buying up that many Lindens (assuming they were failing at their business for the moment) would drive the price of Lindens up for the average person. Other than that, it wouldn't have any effect. All those lindens would be flowing into LL's coffers. Whether they were on the top spot from a 1 million L ad, or a 10 million L ad, the effect on commerce would be the same. (which is why it's unwise to overpay for a classified)

And yes, the top ad will attract attention, and usually more sales. It's just not a guarantee by any stretch. But the statistics say it will help.

I recieved a note today from LL saying that the exploit found by myself and Dante has been fixed and will be in the next server update. (I'm not sure about Cheergirl/Wildefire's, though.)

He commented on mine to, it's good to hear. And I am very curious to see if there is any diference in the classified listings the weeks following.. hmmm.. hehe

yes, me too. I'll be watching

if you have got that much cash to burn on adverts honestly to most people it just suggest that you have too much profit (for whatever reason)

i usually ignore em as its just shouts (i charge too much) in my eyes

in fact i press the price tab and start at the lowest paid

Yep, like the GTR business that starts using cheap non-safe machinery for his workers because everyone else is using it then complaims when all the GTR businesses using them are shut down by WH&S.
If someone makes enough to pay that sort of money, good on them, at least someone is making something

Yeah, more power to 'em, if they're paying full fare for the ads and making it work. But it's a pretty special subset of SL goods and services that can really justify paying such extraordinary amounts--and the good thing is, it's only those search terms that need to pay so much to rank well in the Classifieds.

One would really have to be seriously entertained by retail marketing to want to compete in "furniture", "sex", and "animation" markets. Not good markets for those of us who find that aspect of business irredeemably tedious.

From the latest blog:

"The “fun” (here, here) continues - the issue found that prevented the rollout of 1.23.1 has been fixed and verified, and sat on the Preview Grid over the weekend, along with a couple of *security fixes for previously outstanding issues*. We plan to roll out 1.23.2 this week, starting with a “pilot roll” on Monday followed by updating the reset of Second Life over Tuesday and Wednesday."

So we will probably have to wait until next week before anything 'noticeable' happens, if indeed it does.

So 1.23 has been rolled out for at least a week. Are all the expensive ads gone now?

Several of them have, and the top price has gone down.

Also, it's not clear if the "alt runs a classified and goes into the red" exploit was fixed or not.

Well, the top price going down has more to do with current economic conditions I think. I myself lowered my ad by 10,000L since most ppl are now back to school and business has slowed a bit. I expect things to start picking back up come Fall.

Ah well, I just brought it back up because I said I would, and I always endeavor to keep my word. I think we'll probably never know if it had an effect or not.

Yeah... no way of knowing whether the exploits factored in, but at the time I started this thread, the top classified was L$500,000/week, and that same vendor has dropped their price to L$200,000-something. The top classified now is L$400K, and they have every keyword known to god in their ad, so it comes up in every search for anything.

I've never been crazy enough to go to those spam places.

I wonder how many of their keywords actually apply to the junk they are peddling and how many just don't apply at all.

They still have a top eight spot for that price, there's nothing suspicious about that classified.