Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Why do we encourage mediocrity?

Angelo Beauchamp
Registered User
Join date: 6 Jul 2008
Posts: 24
01-13-2009 16:27
I'm going to address this question to a few different groups of people, so bear with me. Might also take a little bit of setting up, so allow me to paint the RL parallel of my bugbear first.

In real life, if any of us were to walk into a store/restaurant/service and find it to be either in bad disrepair, or not supplying what it claimed to supply, or full of staff who might at first acknowledge our presence, but then studiously ignore us, we'd either immediately turn on our heel and walk out, right? Or at the very most, grudgingly go through with whatever we had to do, and then decide to stay away, not to return. Certainly, unless I really read things in the real world wrong, we wouldn't tip these people, paying more than we had to for receiving less than we expected.

So what's the deal when we get into Second Life - why do we seem to support what is a culture of mediocrity?

I know that I'm leaving myself wide open for flaming here, so let me give you a few examples of what I've encountered in the last three days alone ....

- a trivia event, promising prizes etc, where the first question was only asked to the room 37 minutes after the event began (2nd and 3rd questions at 49 and 61 minutes respectively). And no, the room wasn't full of chat and witty banter - it was a sporadic display of gestures and greetings, most of which did not originate from the hostess. And yet, of the 13 people there, at least 9 of them tipped the hostess!!!!!

- a DJ event where the DJ was mute. Sure, he played his $9.99 K-Mart Best Of ... Compilation CD, but didn't talk between tracks using voice (ok, they don't all do that) nor in chat. When tipped, as he was by at least 7 people, his tipjar gestured a (misspelt) generic thank you message, and that was it. No personal greetings, no engaging the public, no nothing!

- another event where the DJ, upset by the negative response to his choice of music by the people in the room, cut his stream and left the club in a temper tantrum (and also leaving it in silence!!!) He didn't however, pick up his tip jar, which was still being donated to long after his rather unprofessional and rude departure!

And these, although somewhat extreme, are examples we can all relate to I'm sure. How often have we gone somewhere just to be gesture-greeted by a hostess, and then ignored, one assumes in favour of her being able to continue with something more interesting. Ignored, that is, until we're asked to donate money (tips) for the service rendered.

What "Service"?

So, here goes with the questions ...

Club Owners - why are you allowing this sort of thing to continue in your clubs? I'm assuming that you pay tier for the land you've built on, I'm assuming that, although clubs are a notorious money pit in SL, that you're not just running a charity, and that you'd like to recouperate SOME of your overheads. I'm assuming you realise that the people you employ to deal with your clients are your shop window, that they're the lasting impression that your clients have of your club. No amount of fantastic building, after all, can replace the simple thing of "having a good time" - and a "good time" is most easily made or broken by the personnel you have.

Host/esses, DJ's, people working - Are you truly happy, proud of what you do, if you just sit there and occasionally push the F whatever number key to say hello to people, throw out the odd "woot" gesture, and ask for money? Where's your dignity and pride, where's your sense of integrity and honesty - you've been entrusted with a job, why not try to be the best you can at it. In fact, why make the conscious decision to seek and find an SL job, if all it means to you is advanced camping, where you just add gestures every so often?

The rest of us, the consumers - Why do we encourage this mediocrity by tipping these people? I fully appreciate that in the North American culture, tipping is pretty much ingrained into most transactions. But ask yourself this - if you'd been shown to your table in a diner and then ignored for the duration of your visit, without even your meal order being taken, would you still leave a tip on the table when leaving? I think not.

Oh, and one final note - yes, I DO acknowledge that there are establishments in SL that work hard, that demand and deliver the very best of service. But it does strike me that these are becoming fewer and fewer .... and that it's our own fault. So maybe it is time to wake up and realise that OUR money is mostly worked for, and that we shouldn't just give it away where not justified.
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
01-13-2009 16:35
Why?

Maybe they don't know any better.

Maybe they are lazy.

Maybe they are cheap.

Maybe they are afraid.

Maybe there is no better alternative.

Maybe a combination of any/all of the above and more.

Why do you ask?
Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
01-13-2009 16:39
In some cases, I think inexperience is the reason. For a lot of people, their SL venture is the first of it's kind for them, they have no idea how to conduct themselves. They make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them.
Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
01-13-2009 16:56
Answer: because SL is a hobby for most people. There are only a handful of people who make a RL living from SL - most everyone else either spends money or makes a bit of pocket change. You can't really compare to RL where serious money is at stake for business owners if their staff are rude or incompetent (although that sure doesn't seem stop a lot of them, in my experience.)

Very few clubs make it in SL long term because they are indeed money pits. Nobody makes big money being a DJ, most do it for fun and good DJ's will have a following. Good DJ's are also picky about where they play. More than one club has grabbed whatever DJ they could get their hands on in desperation to just have some music rolling. It's a very chaotic business and not all that many people are good at it.
*motions again to lifespan of the average club to enforce point.*
_____________________

http://slurl.com/secondlife/TheBotanicalGardens/207/30/420/
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
01-13-2009 17:08
You get bad service, poor DJ's etc. in RL so it's hardly surprising it happens in SL but in SL these people are often working for a pittance. So whereas you have a point about bad service, you also have to ask yourself as a consumer would you be prepared to pay RL rates for better service? How much does entry to a RL nightclub cost these days? Often it's more than a month's premium membership to SL.
Anya Ristow
Vengeance Studio
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,243
01-13-2009 17:12
From: Angelo Beauchamp
- a trivia event, promising prizes etc, where the first question was only asked to the room 37 minutes after the event began (2nd and 3rd questions at 49 and 61 minutes respectively). And no, the room wasn't full of chat and witty banter - it was a sporadic display of gestures and greetings, most of which did not originate from the hostess. And yet, of the 13 people there, at least 9 of them tipped the hostess!!!!!


Sounds like there were 9 bots, the hostess, you and two other people there. Did you stick around until someone won? If it was L$ being awarded I'd bet it was one of the bots that won.

From: someone
- another event where the DJ, upset by the negative response to his choice of music by the people in the room, cut his stream and left the club in a temper tantrum (and also leaving it in silence!!!) He didn't however, pick up his tip jar, which was still being donated to long after his rather unprofessional and rude departure!


Sounds like more bots. The tip jar probably belonged to the venue and the DJ was getting a cut.

I've visited a lot of places looking for evidence of bot activity at social events and it sounds like you found two in just a few days. I'd love to see the chat logs for those events.

I'll have to pay closer attention to the tipping.
_____________________
The Vengeance Studio Gadget Store is closed!

3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
01-13-2009 17:18
professional DJs get paid a lot more in RL than SL. you get what you pay for?
_____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/
Weston Graves
Werebeagle
Join date: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 2,059
01-13-2009 17:19
Because it is polite. Someone went to the trouble of trying to entertain me even if they fail.

More often than not they succeed though.

In real life I enjoy mediocre art and less than stellar music. I enjoy really good art and music a lot more of course, but I can still appreciate the journeyman or even tyro effort.

On the other hand I think there is a great deal of medicrity in popularity - Thomas Kinkaid and Britney Spears being two real life examples I shy away from at all costs.
MoiselleErin Teardrop
Fat p00n!t4r
Join date: 13 Nov 2008
Posts: 125
01-13-2009 17:19
It is people's choice to tip.
I can imagine trying to run a club in SL can cost a good amount of RL money.

I think it is tacky when they deliberately ask for "linden love" but it is people's choice to tip.

I have tipped at clubs if I enjoy going to them or if it has helped me in some way. In fact, I have tipped owners of a few things just for their help with something. Not a whole lot, maybe 50 here, 100 there or whatever.

Some clubs and shops are a big joke yes. Some of them are awesome. I say just don't go to the ones that suck or do not need your needs.

IN SL, people are there for many reasons and have varied budgets or time to spend on things.
Really, if something about a club sucks, just kindly suggest to the owner what could be improved, no need to be snide.

And with the "thank you's" that they give for tips, well, it is kind of hard to come up with a special greeting for each tipper, especially if they get a lot of them.

The biggest thing on SL - most people are cool but some are true shits, I have learned not to take kindness for granted and I do praise those who are good people.
Ghosty Kips
Elora's Llama
Join date: 2 May 2008
Posts: 2,386
01-13-2009 17:20
Maybe they are bots. There are bots that greet and randomly 'hoo!", bots that tip the dj and so forth, because that's how the dj - who is sometimes also the club owner - gets the actual visitors to do the same. The club scene in SL bites, and this is a result of it biting. Bots.

I agree, there is mediocrity in SL. Best thing you can do for the grid is to not attend - or tip - such performances. There are excellent venues inworld, and excellent performers and artists, who do deserve your support. You might have to wade though a lot of crap to find them, but they are out there and worth the time to find them.
_____________________
--
Why aren't you doing something more useful, like playing WoW?
Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
01-13-2009 17:24
From: Weston Graves
Thomas Kinkaid

_____________________
Ghosty Kips
Elora's Llama
Join date: 2 May 2008
Posts: 2,386
01-13-2009 17:34
From: Oryx Tempel


*I* like Kate Bush.

_____________________
--
Why aren't you doing something more useful, like playing WoW?
3Ring Binder
always smile
Join date: 8 Mar 2007
Posts: 15,028
01-13-2009 17:35
From: Ghosty Kips
I like bush.

fixed. :)
_____________________
it was fun while it lasted.
http://2lf.informe.com/
Ghosty Kips
Elora's Llama
Join date: 2 May 2008
Posts: 2,386
01-13-2009 17:36
From: 3Ring Binder
fixed. :)


Nope. I voted for Obama. :D
_____________________
--
Why aren't you doing something more useful, like playing WoW?
Tarina Sewell
Just Browsing Thank you
Join date: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,180
01-13-2009 19:14
From: Angelo Beauchamp
I'm going to address this question to a few different groups of people, so bear with me. Might also take a little bit of setting up, so allow me to paint the RL parallel of my bugbear first.

In real life, if any of us were to walk into a store/restaurant/service and find it to be either in bad disrepair, or not supplying what it claimed to supply, or full of staff who might at first acknowledge our presence, but then studiously ignore us, we'd either immediately turn on our heel and walk out, right? Or at the very most, grudgingly go through with whatever we had to do, and then decide to stay away, not to return. Certainly, unless I really read things in the real world wrong, we wouldn't tip these people, paying more than we had to for receiving less than we expected.

So what's the deal when we get into Second Life - why do we seem to support what is a culture of mediocrity?

I know that I'm leaving myself wide open for flaming here, so let me give you a few examples of what I've encountered in the last three days alone ....

- a trivia event, promising prizes etc, where the first question was only asked to the room 37 minutes after the event began (2nd and 3rd questions at 49 and 61 minutes respectively). And no, the room wasn't full of chat and witty banter - it was a sporadic display of gestures and greetings, most of which did not originate from the hostess. And yet, of the 13 people there, at least 9 of them tipped the hostess!!!!!

- a DJ event where the DJ was mute. Sure, he played his $9.99 K-Mart Best Of ... Compilation CD, but didn't talk between tracks using voice (ok, they don't all do that) nor in chat. When tipped, as he was by at least 7 people, his tipjar gestured a (misspelt) generic thank you message, and that was it. No personal greetings, no engaging the public, no nothing!

- another event where the DJ, upset by the negative response to his choice of music by the people in the room, cut his stream and left the club in a temper tantrum (and also leaving it in silence!!!) He didn't however, pick up his tip jar, which was still being donated to long after his rather unprofessional and rude departure!

And these, although somewhat extreme, are examples we can all relate to I'm sure. How often have we gone somewhere just to be gesture-greeted by a hostess, and then ignored, one assumes in favour of her being able to continue with something more interesting. Ignored, that is, until we're asked to donate money (tips) for the service rendered.

What "Service"?

So, here goes with the questions ...

Club Owners - why are you allowing this sort of thing to continue in your clubs? I'm assuming that you pay tier for the land you've built on, I'm assuming that, although clubs are a notorious money pit in SL, that you're not just running a charity, and that you'd like to recouperate SOME of your overheads. I'm assuming you realise that the people you employ to deal with your clients are your shop window, that they're the lasting impression that your clients have of your club. No amount of fantastic building, after all, can replace the simple thing of "having a good time" - and a "good time" is most easily made or broken by the personnel you have.

Host/esses, DJ's, people working - Are you truly happy, proud of what you do, if you just sit there and occasionally push the F whatever number key to say hello to people, throw out the odd "woot" gesture, and ask for money? Where's your dignity and pride, where's your sense of integrity and honesty - you've been entrusted with a job, why not try to be the best you can at it. In fact, why make the conscious decision to seek and find an SL job, if all it means to you is advanced camping, where you just add gestures every so often?

The rest of us, the consumers - Why do we encourage this mediocrity by tipping these people? I fully appreciate that in the North American culture, tipping is pretty much ingrained into most transactions. But ask yourself this - if you'd been shown to your table in a diner and then ignored for the duration of your visit, without even your meal order being taken, would you still leave a tip on the table when leaving? I think not.

Oh, and one final note - yes, I DO acknowledge that there are establishments in SL that work hard, that demand and deliver the very best of service. But it does strike me that these are becoming fewer and fewer .... and that it's our own fault. So maybe it is time to wake up and realise that OUR money is mostly worked for, and that we shouldn't just give it away where not justified.



You are under no obligation to tip anyone!

WHich leads me to a pet peeve of mine.... If you have event and drop my ass in the middle of a laggy mall.. I'm out of there.
Elizabeth Barrett
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2006
Posts: 107
01-13-2009 19:23
you might want to try a live music event, much different atmosphere.
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
01-13-2009 19:35
From: Ghosty Kips
Maybe they are bots. There are bots that greet and randomly 'hoo!", bots that tip the dj and so forth, because that's how the dj - who is sometimes also the club owner - gets the actual visitors to do the same. The club scene in SL bites, and this is a result of it biting. Bots.

I agree, there is mediocrity in SL. Best thing you can do for the grid is to not attend - or tip - such performances. There are excellent venues inworld, and excellent performers and artists, who do deserve your support. You might have to wade though a lot of crap to find them, but they are out there and worth the time to find them.


I actually know a couple clubs and DJs that do just that... use bots.

The bots/alts show up during the party and pad the numbers (so the club owner thinks the DJ actually can draw more of a crowd than they do) They tip the DJ, and well many of the crowd follow mob mentality and tip something figuring a lil tip of 20-50l isn't too bad since everyone else is tipping. So even if the house gets a cut the DJ still make s a profit off the tips (plus there is the fact they usually charge the club owner to bring the crowds)

I know a couple of alts... not the real club owners that asked me to try and script a money sphere to only give to a list of uuid's and not anyone else that tipped into it. One unfortunately for them forgot I saw them using the alt to set up poses at the club they were building... both now on perma-mute
_____________________
==========================================

Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
01-13-2009 20:18
Oh comon! I go out of my wits to give the best service I can. And hey, I don't even own a club, just a simple store. SL is all about people. Sometimes you get good service, sometimes bad. But please don't whine about it! Go to where you feel appreciated or else just tp away.
Kaimi Kyomoon
Kah-EE-mee
Join date: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 5,664
01-13-2009 20:33
From: Weston Graves
Because it is polite. Someone went to the trouble of trying to entertain me even if they fail.

More often than not they succeed though.

In real life I enjoy mediocre art and less than stellar music. I enjoy really good art and music a lot more of course, but I can still appreciate the journeyman or even tyro effort.

On the other hand I think there is a great deal of medicrity in popularity - Thomas Kinkaid and Britney Spears being two real life examples I shy away from at all costs.
This is how I feel too. If I'm not having a good time I usually don't stay very long but if I do stay I will tip those who are trying to perform a service for me and otherwise politely appreciate their efforts.

I've been to lots of clubs and events where the music - live or DJ'ed - or other entertainment - was great, the hosts were good at making everyone feel welcome and getting everyone to be friendly with each other, the decor was interesting and I was generally glad I came and happy to stay awhile.
_____________________



Kaimi's Normal Wear

From: 3Ring Binder
i think people are afraid of me or something.
Czari Zenovka
I've Had it With "PC"!
Join date: 3 May 2007
Posts: 3,688
01-13-2009 21:11
Sometimes the tippers and attenders of mediocre performers, etc. are their personal friends. I'm fairly picky where I spend my time and leave anyplace I don't find personally satisfying. (Realizing that varies from person to person.)

I spend a lot of time taking classes in SL. Recently I took one from an instructor who was extremely unorganized, partially from arriving at the class after the time it was supposed to begin; gave difficult to follow instructions, etc. I've heard of some regular class attenders who won't take any classes from her due to the above. I was in IM with several people during the class who were all complaining about her...and she was teaching in a fairly well-known school. I "wondered" in IM to one of the people how instructors like that are allowed to continue as very poor representatives of their schools. The answer I received back was that no one ever wants to complain. (Also, this instructor charged for the class and didn't provide notes.) I decided someone should step up and sent a note card phrased as professionally as possible to all the owners of the school letting them know of this particular class/instructor. I received responses from two of the owners thanking me for my well-thought out comments and that the issue would be looked into.

So, "voting with our feet" and sometimes our voices helps. :)
_____________________
*Czari's Attic* ~ Relive the fun of exploring an attic for hidden treasures!

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Rakhiot/82/99/111

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.- George Orwell
Missy Eriksen
Registered User
Join date: 1 Oct 2008
Posts: 8
01-13-2009 21:26
Good posts and interesting topic, Angelo. Glad you spoke up and shared what was on your mind.

It's all about the customer. Ask for feedback and how to improve the service. What can I do for YOU? Research the competition and know your customers. Learn. Mostly, it's about making your customers feel good and repeat business.

During some events, greeting everyone in person isn't possible, but sometimes it is and it just isn't being done. I realize there may be many reasons for that. Many people go out of their way to attend and want to feel like they fit in....or at least just have their presence awknowledged. Sometimes customers are taken for granted though and don't feel appreciated. It happens too often in RL and SL.

So, if a customer shows up, remember it is all about them, but only if you want them to part with their money and come back.
Abu Nasu
Code Monkey
Join date: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 476
01-13-2009 22:45
Doing a lot of the RL equivalents in SL is almost too easy.

Wanna be an event DJ in RL? You gotta have tons of equipment, set it up, do the show, and tear it down. Wanna be an event DJ in SL? All you really gotta have is a stream.

Wanna make a house in RL? My mind boggles at what is needed for that. Wanna make a house in SL? Find a sandbox.

The bar for being able to do things has been lowered a great deal. Makes it a lot easier for the hobbyist and the curious to try things. So, of course you are going to get mediocre. I do think it's admirable that folks are trying things that they otherwise wouldn't try, but sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet in moderation when you make your efferts public. Just because you can stream, it doesn't make you a DJ.

I ran into this phenomenom pretty hard when Layer Styles were introduced into Photoshop. Next thing you know, folks were making buttons all over the place and claiming to be web designers. Just because you can make fancy buttons, it doesn't make you a web designer. Sure you can make buttons and cobble together with DreamWeaver, but what you gonna do when a CSS float is misbehaving?

What are you going to do when your SL DJ is one of these people and doesn't know how to cope with the finer points?
Clarissa Lowell
Gone. G'bye.
Join date: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 3,020
01-14-2009 01:40
NO one 'encourages' it, it just happens. Maybe those people were not hired back again.

Also it can be hard to keep staff, I think, since the 'real' money paid amounts to less than minimum wage.

If a host at a club gets $350L in tips, what is that, a couple bucks? And their shift was probably real-life *hours* long.

It could be they are unhappy working there due to management. It could be that management is unhappy with *them* but can't get anyone else. Who knows? There are zillions of clubs in SL.

Did you complain to management of any of the clubs? I can tell you, though, that sometimes they just don't care. It is all about numbers, to some of them. Getting warm pixels in the club so they can justify their ad rates.

Since the pixels are really just people at a keyboard, and the human population by *definition* has a certain amount of mediocrity (otherwise what would "excellent" mean?) why are you surprised?
Cortex Draper
Registered User
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 406
01-14-2009 04:48
From: Angelo Beauchamp
- another event where the DJ, upset by the negative response to his choice of music by the people in the room, cut his stream and left the club in a temper tantrum (and also leaving it in silence!!!) He didn't however, pick up his tip jar, which was still being donated to long after his rather unprofessional and rude departure!
This comment sets my alarm bells ringing.

IMO if you dont like the music a DJ plays you can give requests but if he doesnt do your requests and you cannot stand his choice of music you should simply leave, not complain so loudly you drive out the DJ as that is griefing.
Betty Doyle
Ingenue
Join date: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 336
01-14-2009 05:08
From: Ghosty Kips
*I* like Kate Bush.



You are obviously a gentleman with exceptional taste. :)
_____________________
Ingenue :: Fashion with a Past ::
http://ingenuevintage.wordpress.com
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Lo%20Lo/201/99/21/
1 2 3 4 5