Silver Threads and Iron Chains
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
11-23-2008 10:56
From: Brann Georgia
(Briana, if some of us weren't ignorant about the subject, we wouldn't be asking. If someone isn't worth talking to, you can feel free to withhold comment.
Folks like Kelli and Love are trying to explain things quite reasonably without the knee-jerk reaction - the odd idiot post notwithstanding)
B.
Do you mean this 'odd idiot post' quoted below, or was this 'knee-jerk': From: Brann Georgia I always get a giggle out of the term "power exchange". This would imply an equal, two-way handing off of power. I don't see it. Being dragged around on ones knees at the end of a chain isn't something I'd do to my dog (if I had one). I guess some "slaves" insist that they get power in turn - like the dimwit who once simpered that she was naughty on purpose so that her master would punish her by putting her into a horse harness. Is it any wonder that slave/master public spectacles get pointed and laughed at? Almost as chuckalicious as calling Norman's books "literature". Yah, I'm intolerant  People who with a smile after saying they are intolerant is what makes me think "people not worth talking to". Your post, your words. Anyways....I am too weak-willed to say more.  |
|
Jig Chippewa
Fine Young Cannibal
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,150
|
11-23-2008 10:56
From: Kelli May spinster...
Unless this thread goes in a different direction, I think I've said all I need to on the subject. Okay But thanks anyay for all comments
_____________________
Fine Young Cannibal
|
|
Brann Georgia
Spits infinitives
Join date: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1,441
|
11-23-2008 11:07
From: Briana Dawson Do you mean this 'odd idiot post' quoted below, or was this 'knee-jerk':
Nope, that was an idiot post. Tends to happen. Get over it.
_____________________
* * 
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
11-23-2008 11:10
From: Brann Georgia This is the sticking point for me.
Those of us who are not "into" this sort of thing tend to think of subs as generally weak-willed people who need someone to tell them what to do. Perhaps they are emotionally needy, somehow damaged, or for some other reason willing to let someone else take over the reins. (Yes, of course, not all of them - forgive us this perception when we see people willing to be led around on a chain like dogs) Yet another insulting reference likening subs/slaves to dogs. Oh well. Sure some subs are emotionally needy - just like some people, damaged? no? Willing to let someone else take over the reins? You mean choose someone to make decisions for us that we do not care to make? I do not know who you think would be in control but if slave/subs are the ones who are actually empowering the Dominant to take the position of control and make for us the decisions we do not wish to make. From: Brann Georgia
So then I'm thinking that there is a real danger of such people falling victim to someone's whims because these 'slaves' are afraid to withhold 'consent'.
Seriously? "Real Danger"? Real in what way? From: Brann Georgia
In a perfect happy world everyone agrees on what is within boundaries.
But would someone dependent on their 'master' agree to otherwise objectionable actions out of fear of dismissal? Would a "master" even be aware that their pet isn't happy with what they're asked to do?
You are then, actually, moving from play-slave to real-slave. An abusive relationship, be that SL or RL.
So now you are talking about saving us from abusive relationships. Sorry D/s relationships are just like non D/s relationships in that you know when you partner is not happy and when you realize that, you work to find out why and fix it so that does not happen again. Any one in SL getting totally stepped on against their will and not speaking up is for the most part lucky it is happening in SL and (hopefully) not their RL because ultimately, it is what they want. People like you always make an issue of "the safety of the sub/slave" when really all you want is a better foothold for your argument against the lifestyle. You really do not understand the dynamic of the relationship therefore you formulate these ideas of "what if this is like that and then the sub/slave is like such-an-such"; well that just does not work out because you are totally ignorant of the dynamic. Sure there is abuse in everything, so does that mean all D/s is bad? I think not. The truth is that in a D/s relationship the "power exchange" is mutual and often tips in the balance of the sub/slave - even when it appears that the Dominant is total control of every aspect of His sub/slave. It takes a powerful Dominant to withstand the call of the needs of the sub/slave and not fall victim to being 'topped from the bottom'. In the relationships i know of, any harshness that occurs from the Dominant is what the sub/slave wishes, likes and is stimulated by it is not the true attitude or nature of the Dominant. When I am shackled and forced to my knee's, is my Domme doing it because she likes it, or because she knows it thrills me to no end? Although to all those standing near, it seems as if she is controlling and very dominant, when really she is bring me great pleasure and doing something she knows i like. And damn, now i feel like i spilled sub/slave secrets. SORRY SIS's! |
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
11-23-2008 11:16
From: Brann Georgia Nope, that was an idiot post. Tends to happen. Get over it. Ugh. Get over it? Get over what? You said something stupid - you get called out - it is done. Do not fret, there is nothing you are putting out that I cannot get over.  |
|
Kelli May
karmakanic
Join date: 7 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,135
|
11-23-2008 11:20
From: Brann Georgia This is the sticking point for me.
Those of us who are not "into" this sort of thing tend to think of subs as generally weak-willed people who need someone to tell them what to do. Perhaps they are emotionally needy, somehow damaged, or for some other reason willing to let someone else take over the reins. (Yes, of course, not all of them - forgive us this perception when we see people willing to be led around on a chain like dogs)
So then I'm thinking that there is a real danger of such people falling victim to someone's whims because these 'slaves' are afraid to withhold 'consent'.
In a perfect happy world everyone agrees on what is within boundaries.
But would someone dependent on their 'master' agree to otherwise objectionable actions out of fear of dismissal? Would a "master" even be aware that their pet isn't happy with what they're asked to do?
You are then, actually, moving from play-slave to real-slave. An abusive relationship, be that SL or RL.
(Briana, if some of us weren't ignorant about the subject, we wouldn't be asking. If someone isn't worth talking to, you can feel free to withhold comment.
Folks like Kelli and Love are trying to explain things quite reasonably without the knee-jerk reaction - the odd idiot post notwithstanding)
B. And immediately, it does move in another direction  OK, first thing... subs are rarely weak-willed. It takes enormous strength of mind to remain obedient when it would be much easier to do otherwise. It is easy to get the opposite impression, I agree. Neither are most Dominants cruel. To be effective, they need to be very sensitive and caring of their charges. It's partly this dichotomy that makes the subject so interesting. The question of subs fearing to withhold consent is a *very* good point, and it's an issue I've known to come up. A good Master/Mistress should reassure their sub that they can discuss changing boundaries, feelings of discomfort etc. (sensitive Dominant) and not be afraid of retribution (strong-willed sub). The discussions I've taken part in on the subject frequently stress the importance of clear and honest communication. But... You are right, it's not an ideal world. There are inept and abusive Dominants. There are timid and overly dependent subs. When D/s is in a community setting, these problems are lessened because people watch out for one another. The word gets out about the problem types, hopefully before they can do harm. I'll admit, it's a real danger and the only defence I can put forward is might come across as weak: this happens outside of D/s as much as inside. That's not to say it's acceptable, just that in any kind of relationship there can be forms of abuse. It behoves the D/s community to be especially watchful for this sort of thing because of the way we are perceived. It's a very real problem that I don't want to play down, but I honestly don't see it as any worse, or more prevalent than any other form of relationship abuse or co-dependency. OK, so in the space of a few days I've outed myself as transgender and become a spokesperson for D/s. Anything else I can tackle?
_____________________
Do worried sheep have nervous ticks?
Karmakanix@Sin-Labs http://slurl.com/secondlife/Circe/170/197/504
Karmakanix on SLX http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=61062
|
|
Brann Georgia
Spits infinitives
Join date: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1,441
|
11-23-2008 11:27
From: Briana Dawson Anyways....I am too weak-willed to say more. Well, apparently not You haven't spilled any secrets that we haven't heard before, no worries. I guess my posts do sound dismissive of pets/slaves/doms/whatever and you responded in kind. Fair enough. I'm not against that lifestyle - just rankled by the knee-jerk reaction of being called 'ignorant' or hearing accusations of 'you don't understand' when asking questions IN A FORUM. Inquiring minds want to know, that's all. A well-worded answer (and we've seen some in this thread) would probably go a long way toward fewer people like me thinking that someone who volunteers to be called 'slave' or 'pet' might not be quite right in the head.
_____________________
* *
|
|
Brann Georgia
Spits infinitives
Join date: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1,441
|
11-23-2008 11:30
Thanks, Kelli, for understanding my point/question/whatever From: Kelli May
OK, so in the space of a few days I've outed myself as transgender and become a spokesperson for D/s. Anything else I can tackle?
I miss all the fun posts! ! ! 
_____________________
* *
|
|
Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
|
11-23-2008 11:48
it's odd that so many people equate fantasy slavery with the real life ezuivalent.... (or ignore that some people really are mired in a RL version, and it doesn't bother them at all)
_____________________
| | . "Cat-Like Typing Detected" | . This post may contain errors in logic, spelling, and | . grammar known to the SL populace to cause confusion | | - Please Use PHP tags when posting scripts/code, Thanks. | - Can't See PHP or URL Tags Correctly? Check Out This Link... | - 
|
|
Love Hastings
#66666
Join date: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,094
|
11-23-2008 11:57
Pep, you seem convinced that youe argument is based on "irrefutable logic", while the counter argument is based on emotion. Sorry, but my argument was not in any way based on emotion. It was also a constructed logical argument, but with a different set of premises. Specifically, one that you disagree with, because you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Because you've judged before understanding the issues. Which is the height of ignorance. You take it further by then attacking the person(s) making the counter argument (emotion? Really?), which is another tool of the ignorant.
|
|
Love Hastings
#66666
Join date: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,094
|
11-23-2008 12:05
From: Amaranthim Talon Love- walk away now. Really. It's pointless - trying to convince some people they are wrong about something or just don't fully grasp all the information is completely impossible. Believe me- I have made those same points to that same person over and over and over and finally decided I can walk away 'cause I have nothing to prove.
It's a good point. Plus, there's no point in trying to help someone understand something they have no desire to learn. You know, because they've stylized themselves as older and more mature man... inevitably leading to a closed mind (prejudgement, only looking at issues at the surface level - black and white, and being unable to integrate new ideas into their world view). The type of person who thinks they can win an argument with vocabulary and condescension. |
|
Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
|
11-23-2008 12:12
From: Love Hastings It was also a constructed logical argument, but with a different set of premises. Therefore not a logical counter argument to mine. From: Love Hastings You take it further by then attacking the person(s) making the counter argument (emotion? Really?), which is another tool of the ignorant. Amaranthim made no counter argument, merely interfering inappropriately by referring to a personal history which I was perfectly entitled to comment upon, once she had brought it up. I am not winning an argument with vocabulary and condescension. I have already won my argument with logic. You have already admitted that my argument was correct. I know enough to have obtained your agreement to it, but for some reason you want to persuade me of the validity of your views of something completely different, something in which I have no interest at all. Pep (Open minded but logical and not swayed by emotional arguments)
_____________________
Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
11-23-2008 12:39
From: Love Hastings Plus, there's no point in trying to help someone understand something they have no desire to learn. You know, because they've stylized themselves as older and more mature man... inevitably leading to a closed mind (prejudgement, only looking at issues at the surface level - black and white, and being unable to integrate new ideas into their world view). The type of person who thinks they can win an argument with vocabulary and condescension. <3 |
|
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
|
11-23-2008 13:12
Many vanilla people are surprised to learn that S/M includes erotic spanks, scratches, and bites, which are amazingly common forms of erotic expression. They are also surprised to find out that S/M practitioners can fall in love, and that they enjoy conventional sex acts such as oral sex and intercourse. However BSDM to me is an erotic art which does not require conventional sex acts to explore and practice. That's my philosophical story, and I'm stickin' to it.
Take it from someone who enjoys and shares a 24/7 RL BDSM lifestyle with a submissive woman whom i cherish and adore and one who is very intelligent to boot.
_____________________
Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants. http://slapt.me  slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26
|
|
Derbor Torok
Lost soul
Join date: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,016
|
11-23-2008 13:45
From: Love Hastings Love (Why do I let myself get sucked into these threads) You didn't get the popcorn fast enough.. tsk, tsk... .d |
|
Derbor Torok
Lost soul
Join date: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,016
|
11-23-2008 13:51
From: Pserendipity Daniels You sound like my wife when confronted with an irrefutable logical argument that doesn't accord with her emotional beliefs. Pep ("You don't understand . . . " Its funny to see your emotional beliefs... and when people call you on them thinking of them as 'logic' Your wife must be a saint.. .d |
|
Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
|
11-23-2008 13:57
From: Derbor Torok Its funny to see your emotional beliefs... and when people call you on them thinking of them as 'logic' Your wife must be a saint.. .d What emotional beliefs? I haven't expressed any here. Pep (And my wife is not a saint but even she knows the correct use of its and it's)
_____________________
Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
11-23-2008 14:03
Jeeezus.
When people start drawing attention to spelling and grammatical errors in a discussion it says more negative things about the person pointing out the error than the person who made them and it is yet just another purely personal snipe.
|
|
Love Hastings
#66666
Join date: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,094
|
11-23-2008 14:09
From: Briana Dawson Jeeezus.
When people start drawing attention to spelling and grammatical errors in a discussion it says more negative things about the person pointing out the error than the person who made them and it is yet just another purely personal snipe. <3 |
|
Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
|
11-23-2008 14:22
From: Briana Dawson When people start drawing attention to spelling and grammatical errors in a discussion it says more negative things about the person pointing out the error than the person who made them I don't think so. I just happen to believe that the arguments of those who are unable to remember the simplest of rules of grammar should be significantly discounted and therefore draw such instances to readers' attention. Pep (The discussion is dead anyway. Love conceded my contention was correct)
_____________________
Hypocrite lecteur, — mon semblable, — mon frère!
|
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
11-23-2008 14:25
From: Pserendipity Daniels
Pep (And my wife is not a saint but EVEN SHE knows the correct use of its and it's)
Why do you say "even she"? Is she the type of person that doe not know a lot of things so its a big deal that needs to be mentioned when someone makes an error that EVEN she (your wife) would not? Maybe it is part of the "act" you put on in the forums but you really seem to have a less than stellar opinion of women, your wife included, and it seems as though you fancy yourself an intellectual and a gentleman, but honestly, what I see looks pretty crass and contrived. |
|
Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
|
11-23-2008 14:26
From: Pserendipity Daniels I don't think so. I just happen to believe that the arguments of those who are unable to remember the simplest of rules of grammar should be significantly discounted and therefore draw such instances to readers' attention.
Pep (The discussion is dead anyway. Love conceded my contention was correct) Ahh you would rather win an argument by the LOOK and not the SUBSTANCE. Gotcha. I think we all can see that. |
|
Derbor Torok
Lost soul
Join date: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,016
|
11-23-2008 14:27
From: Pserendipity Daniels What emotional beliefs? I haven't expressed any here.
Pep (And my wife is not a saint but even she knows the correct use of its and it's) From: Pserendipity Daniels I try very hard to deter and avoid any contact at all with slaves/subs inworld for a very simple reason: I want to communicate (I was going to say have intercourse with, but you would almost certainly have misunderstood) in a manner of mutual trust; it is difficult enough assessing the honesty of someone who is speaking for themselves, but impossible to to do so if they are someone's acknowledged puppet, possibly required to lie, cheat, steal and otherwise serve their Master/Mistress's whim without my being aware of it - because of their commitment to obedience.
Pep (A bit like reading anything the Lindens say in the forums) Your entry into this thread is emotional and focusing on typos is also emotional. The above quote has no logic, you think of yourself as logical but you are probably more emotional than your wife .d |
|
Love Hastings
#66666
Join date: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,094
|
11-23-2008 14:28
From: Pserendipity Daniels
Pep (The discussion is dead anyway. Love conceded my contention was correct)
I roll my eyes at thee. |
|
Derbor Torok
Lost soul
Join date: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,016
|
11-23-2008 14:30
From: Pserendipity Daniels I don't think so. I just happen to believe that the arguments of those who are unable to remember the simplest of rules of grammar should be significantly discounted and therefore draw such instances to readers' attention.
Pep (The discussion is dead anyway. Love conceded my contention was correct) Another purely emotional response.. .d |
