Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the pool, the other day my RL GF got banned from a sim because she only spoke english?
Today we recieved a notecard from reguarding wolfhaven money trees...
Quote:
From the Wolfhaven Forums: http://forums.wolfhavenproductions.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=49&start=0
I got an IM this morning from a Money Tree Fanatic... he was a bit upset....
[5:47] BD: The tree located at this place kicks people cause they are not Japenese...that is aggravating. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Kcat%20Island/177/110/24
Sooo... I popped over there to investigate. For the record, I was back on my home sim 15 seconds later....
Not a happy individual at this point I popped in at a different point on the sim in question and took a looksee at their money tree... sure enough there was a sign in english next to it that said "Japanese Only..." The tree was owned by one "Name Removed by request".
Annoyed at this point I took a look at the sim covenant thinking I'd IM the sim owner... one "Name Removed by request". The covenant stated "Japanese Only".
I took a closer look at the sign.. sim owner placed it there.
For the record I really despise racial profiling of any kind.
So... for the record folks, you will -never- find a Wolfhaven Money Tree on Kcat Island nor one owned by the above two individuals -ever- again.
I've banned them, and their elitist racially pure island from the system. Their tree is now GONE (I've killed it).
One other thing... if you're in my GOLDEN APPLE PROGRAM (which their tree was) your tree better be fully accessible by the general populace. I don't care how you have your regular tree settings configured. The Golden Apple program is configured so ANY avatar under 60 days old can pick it. Anyone should be able to walk right up to it and stand there and click on the golden apple (unless they've been banned for a legitimately offensive reason - and picking from money trees isn't a reason to ban them from one unless they're a bot). If they can't... I'll be paying you a visit real soon to discuss it.
Regards,
End Quote:
I'm wondering but sounds to me that this boarders on the side of racism a little. based on spoken language. Is this what LL really needs or wants ???
Let the mud slinging begin !!!!
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Banned due to language I Speak? |
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Mondak Slade
Coyote Ranch (CEO)
Join date: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 22
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05-12-2009 16:32
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Ian Nider
Seeds
Join date: 20 Mar 2009
Posts: 1,011
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05-12-2009 16:42
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the pool, the other day my RL GF got banned from a sim because she only spoke english? Today we recieved a notecard from Traven Sachs reguarding this... Quote: From the Wolfhaven Forums: http://forums.wolfhavenproductions.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=49&start=0 I got an IM this morning from a Money Tree Fanatic... he was a bit upset.... [5:47] BD: The tree located at this place KCat kicks people cause they are not Japenese...that is aggravating. http://slurl.com/secondlife/Kcat%20Island/177/110/24 Sooo... I popped over there to investigate. For the record, I was back on my home sim 15 seconds later.... Not a happy individual at this point I popped in at a different point on the sim in question and took a looksee at their money tree... sure enough there was a sign in english next to it that said "Japanese Only..." The tree was owned by one "tosy xue". Annoyed at this point I took a look at the sim covenant thinking I'd IM the sim owner... one "ken1104 Hotshot". The covenant stated "Japanese Only". I took a closer look at the sign.. sim owner placed it there. For the record I really despise racial profiling of any kind. So... for the record folks, you will -never- find a Wolfhaven Money Tree on Kcat Island nor one owned by the above two individuals -ever- again. I've banned them, and their elitist racially pure island from the system. Their tree is now GONE (I've killed it). One other thing... if you're in my GOLDEN APPLE PROGRAM (which their tree was) your tree better be fully accessible by the general populace. I don't care how you have your regular tree settings configured. The Golden Apple program is configured so ANY avatar under 60 days old can pick it. Anyone should be able to walk right up to it and stand there and click on the golden apple (unless they've been banned for a legitimately offensive reason - and picking from money trees isn't a reason to ban them from one unless they're a bot). If they can't... I'll be paying you a visit real soon to discuss it. Regards, Traven Sachs End Quote: I'm wondering but sounds to me that this boarders on the side of racism a little. based on spoken language. Is this what LL really needs or wants ??? Let the mud slinging begin !!!! Just fyi, you can't name names in this forum apparently, so maybe edit and remove them. On topic, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." Either every language has the right to actually ban on this or none do. On peoples personal profiles I think language preference is fine, maybe even their own land too, but it's not something I'd want to see in sims from any being of any type. |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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05-12-2009 16:43
Would be advisable to elide the specific avatar names in the original post, to stay within the Forums guidelines.
Regarding the actual subject... dunno; I'm of two minds about it. I am pretty sure, however, that "Japanese Only" is less troubling than would be "No English." _____________________
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Maya Remblai
The one with pink hair.
Join date: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 434
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05-12-2009 16:44
On the one hand, I'm ok with people preferring to cater to one language group, if it's not the majority anyway (ie English, since LL is an American company). But on the other hand, auto banning people who don't fit the bill is a bit extreme.
I recall that once when I was wandering around a Japanese sim, I noticed a land rental offer board that stated it was for Japanese speaking people only. I wasn't offended, I thought it made sense, since someone who doesn't speak English may have a hard time renting from someone who doesn't speak Japanese. The difference there though is that said board didn't ban anyone, and the public was welcome to browse and shop in the sim. Personally I would give the benefit of the doubt here, that they were catering to people who would otherwise have trouble in the mainly-English grid, but the banning seems unnecessarily harsh. In your case, since your product was involved, you're certainly within your rights to not allow it to be used in a closed-to-the-public setting. |
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Jezebella Desmoulins
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 561
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05-12-2009 16:46
In general, sim owners are allowed to run their sim how they see fit and ban whoever they want for any reason they choose.
Likewise, the operator of this "Golden Apple Program" is allowed to decide who may and may not participate in his program. Obviously, he found this sim owners policies to conflict with his own, so they no longer may use the money trees. Beyond that, you're not likely to get the sim owner "punished" any further for operating a sim with the requirement "Japanese language only." |
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Brenda Connolly
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Posts: 25,000
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05-12-2009 16:48
Private Estate owners have the right to decide who can enter and use their property, for whatever reasons. That's what they pay good money for. That's their right and I agree with it. Freedom of association and all that.
You took exception to it and chose not to do business with them. That is your right. Once again, I agree with it. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Mondak Slade
Coyote Ranch (CEO)
Join date: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 22
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05-12-2009 16:54
Sorry about the posting of names, read the notice and my mind let loose, again apologies...
Just thought that this would be a good exercise in ethics. I have omitted them now  Personally i don't mind any people of any language, I will use my handy translator even if it's not perfect. I don't ban people due to race, ethnicity, language, or sex... Yes I speak english, and i speak several other languages, i just don't have it listed in my profile. |
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Rhaorth Antonelli
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Posts: 7,425
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05-12-2009 17:03
I wanted to send you a PM but you do not have them turned on, so I will ask here and risk looking like an idiot LOL (which is nothing new)
I am guessing (not in world to check) that you are the creator of the wolfhaven money trees? If so, what is the configuration for payment info on file, but not having to be used? (I have a tree, I wanted it for those with payment info on file, but not necessarily used) not sure if I did it correctly though) (either contact me in world or reply here or via pm, it all works for me )_____________________
Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar. They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life... |
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Brenda Connolly
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05-12-2009 17:06
Just playing devil's advocate for a moment and not picking on Rha, but is there much of a difference between wanting the trees used by Japanese only and wanting them used by PIOF only?
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Rhaorth Antonelli
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05-12-2009 17:09
Just playing devil's advocate for a moment and not picking on Rha, but is there much of a difference between wanting the trees used by Japanese only and wanting them used by PIOF only? good point Brenda... my reason for PIOF is I do not want it picked clean by bots (and it does happen which is why I took the tree down eons ago) (however the PIOF is scripted into the tree system, Japanese only is not.) (and as the creator I am sure he does have the right to say who can use his trees and who can't... right?) The part that got me, was that they had it turned on for the Golden Apple, yet keeping out a high number of the population. (being it was ban if they are not Japanese) (I think the golden apple thing was what was the breaking point) I do not have that turned on, on mine. _____________________
Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar. They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life... |
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Brenda Connolly
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05-12-2009 17:11
good point Brenda... my reason for PIOF is I do not want it picked clean by bots (and it does happen which is why I took the tree down eons ago) (however the PIOF is scripted into the tree system, Japanese only is not. (and as the creator I am sure he does have the right to say who can use his trees and who can't... right?) Good answer Rha. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Mondak Slade
Coyote Ranch (CEO)
Join date: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 22
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05-12-2009 17:11
I'm not the creator of the trees, but we have some on our sim Beachcomber Isle,
You will have to take up configurations suggestions from their support channels, I just thought it was interesting and thought it was a little extreme, I didn't take any offense to the banning, and yes Estate Owners do have the right to ban whoever they wish. But what would be a better way to handle it? don't allow access to the trees? & let the general public visit your land, shop, and enjoy the creations? or just ban everyone who you don't understand? |
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Rhaorth Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
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05-12-2009 17:15
hmm what gave me the impression he was the creator? *shrug*
Thanks brenda, I have those good answers once in awhile hehe. I guess when I am in world again, I will seek out the creator and find out what I need to know, or ask around. Edited to add: OHHHHH Now I understand, he was quoting from the money tree forums (should have enclosed it in a quote, so as not to confuse the old ones like me, ya know, they say the mind is the first to go) hehe Travis is the creator, I will check through their forums and see if the info I seek is there _____________________
Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar. They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life... |
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Mondak Slade
Coyote Ranch (CEO)
Join date: 15 Jul 2007
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05-12-2009 17:20
Sorry, didn't mean to mislead, that was not my intention.
3 years in SL and you would think I would have learned to quote properly.... My bad |
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Rhaorth Antonelli
Registered User
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 7,425
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05-12-2009 17:21
Sorry, didn't mean to mislead, that was not my intention. 3 years in SL and you would think I would have learned to quote properly.... My bad ah heck happens to all of us (not your fault the old brain needs a reboot(MY brain, not yours, realized how that looked OOPS!) heh no worries, I understand now, and you were not misleading, I was misreading. _____________________
Morpheus Linden: But then I change avs pretty often too, so often, I look nothing like my avatar. They are taking away the forums... it could be worse, they could be taking away the forums AND Second Life... |
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Ian Nider
Seeds
Join date: 20 Mar 2009
Posts: 1,011
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05-12-2009 17:23
In general, sim owners are allowed to run their sim how they see fit and ban whoever they want for any reason they choose. Likewise, the operator of this "Golden Apple Program" is allowed to decide who may and may not participate in his program. Obviously, he found this sim owners policies to conflict with his own, so they no longer may use the money trees. Beyond that, you're not likely to get the sim owner "punished" any further for operating a sim with the requirement "Japanese language only." I think the question is is it racism? What if there where sims with no French or Japanese speaking people allowed, would that be ok etc? Or if it carries on to no people of this or that religion, sexuality or gender? No gays or no heteros, or no bla bla's... etc If everyone is cool with the right to ban on preference it extends to every preference. The others are right, that people are paying for the sim is the main point. I forgot that in my first post. I'm split both ways on it. Peoples right to have their way in their own land verses a mass of SL that I'm not allowed on. |
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Mondak Slade
Coyote Ranch (CEO)
Join date: 15 Jul 2007
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05-12-2009 17:24
With everything else going on I just had to poke the hornets nest, hehehehe
But you have to admit it is an interesting point ! |
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Maya Remblai
The one with pink hair.
Join date: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 434
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05-12-2009 17:26
If it makes you feel better Rhaorth, I made the same mistake in not separating the quote from the OP's statements.
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Zuleika Deere
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2006
Posts: 77
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05-12-2009 17:28
Just playing devil's advocate for a moment and not picking on Rha, but is there much of a difference between wanting the trees used by Japanese only and wanting them used by PIOF only? This was the first thing I thought as well when I read the first post. I don't agree with ruling out people because of their language, race, appearance, gender or their payment info. So, my money tree is there for everybody. I really see no difference between saying "only Japanese", or "only payment info on file". It's both discrimination. The only thing that matters to me is how people behave. So, only their behaviour will get them banned from my place. Unfortunately that won't even stop them from picking from my tree, since that is too close to a Linden road. Anybody can stand on that road and pick from the tree. |
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Brenda Connolly
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05-12-2009 17:29
I wouldn't consider it racism at all. There are no derogatory signs, or images, are there? They aren't espousing any negative beliefs about non Japanese. They are merely exercising freedom of association. I would say the the same for any special interest group acting the same way. There is a certain amount of insularity in Japanese culture, and this just reflects wanting to be among their own.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
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05-12-2009 17:30
People of any language are welcome to my business, the same as sexual orientation but people also have the right to exclude others, their choice.
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Ian Nider
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05-12-2009 17:35
I wouldn't consider it racism at all. There are no derogatory signs, or images, are there? They aren't espousing any negative beliefs about non Japanese. They are merely exercising freedom of association. I would say the the same for any special interest group acting the same way. There is a certain amount of insularity in Japanese culture, and this just reflects wanting to be among their own. Yeh, actually that's fair too, still would it wash across the board of all preferences? What if someone didn't want a certain coloured skin? |
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Brenda Connolly
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05-12-2009 17:45
Yeh, actually that's fair too, still would it wash across the board of all preferences? What if someone didn't want a certain coloured skin? As long as it's simply wishing to associate with who you want, and not actively doing anything to have a negative impact or inflict harm in any way, I'm fine with it, personally. I know a lot of people in today's world feel that we should be told who we should like, and not like and what to think and all, but I'm not one them. I don't want someone telling me who I can have or not have in my RL home. Same thing. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Jake Kamala
Registered User
Join date: 22 Nov 2008
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05-12-2009 17:50
Private Estate owners have the right to decide who can enter and use their property, for whatever reasons. That's what they pay good money for. That's their right and I agree with it. Freedom of association and all that. You took exception to it and chose not to do business with them. That is your right. Once again, I agree with it. That about sums up what I was going to say. |
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eku Zhong
Apocalips = low prims
Join date: 27 May 2008
Posts: 752
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05-12-2009 17:52
I wouldn't consider it racism at all. There are no derogatory signs, or images, are there? They aren't espousing any negative beliefs about non Japanese. They are merely exercising freedom of association. I would say the the same for any special interest group acting the same way. There is a certain amount of insularity in Japanese culture, and this just reflects wanting to be among their own. its not really racism.. youre right.. but more xenophobia... i get a lot of IM from japanese friends who have shops on japanese sims.. in total panic because someone sent them an IM in english.. it's silly, i know but it is the way ppl are taught to behave. when i first read the OP i was a little ashamed.. but yes Brenda and everyone else is right.. excluding anyone for whatever reason is not only the same.. but also the SIM owners prerogutive (sp???) how about camping chairs with antibot questions in english.. that excludes all the non english speakers.. and help groups for products where someone asks a question in another language and all the english speakers start complaining and slamming the poster .. i see a helluva lot of that actually and i think thats really bad. _____________________
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