Please read and let me know if I'm crazy or right

If it is the rule, it doesn't sound like there's any consistency in its enforcement though. First, one Linden says it's not allowed. Then, a second Linden says it is allowed. Then, a different Linden says it isn't allowed. If the Lindens can't even keep the rules straight, how can residents be expected to know what is or isn't allowed.

I have no sympathy for a Realtor who decides to buy a piece of property in the middle of land that has already been developed. The Realtor knew what the surrounding plots looked like before buying it and still chose to buy the land. That's the risk the Realtor took. Based on the inflated price for which the Realtor tried to sell the land, it sounds to me like the only purpose for buying it was to gouge the neighboring landowner for the price of a small plot. Their plan clearly backfired.

There are obviously multiple issues going on here. I think all resident landowners would really be at risk if the Lindens decided Popo couldn't build his Zombie Nation. Next thing you know, all you have to do is complain about the aesthetics of a neighbor's house and they'd have to change it. You don't want a restaurant or store next to you...complain about it and it will have to be changed. That kind of decision could have huge implications for landowners.

Best of luck!

Actually Lindens told me you are allowed to ban anyone regardless of the location and if totally surrounded. I did get that part cleared up. The issue now is they say I can't build to cover up the disruptive things and just go on with my SL. 1024m plot has plenty of cam view, I've been on much less before.

although my intention is not to block them in, it is a result of their non stop griefing. I understand why normally I would be in the wrong.

1) If I hadn't had a majority already built long before the bought the land, I could sympathize.

2) If this was a person that could only afford a small lot and was trying to make the best of it, I would go out of my way to help.

3) If it was a real estate person trying to make a fair buck, no problem... I probably would have bought it when I had the tier.

4) If they just had talked to me about a compromise and not griefed me at all, I would have been open minded plus listened and looked for a way to be less intrusive.

None of these points are the case however, so that brings us back to start.

Keep in mind, we're not talking about two 1024 lots here battling out a tree over the property line. It's also not about a struggling AV who got suckered into a Houdini land deal. I have half a sim dedicated to this project and they came in knowing exactly what I was doing and specifically chose a 1024 spot in the middle of it all.

They are also not struggling to survive and play with a couple hundred prim. They own more land than I do for sure in other sims. I've already run across one whole sim they have a few sims northeast of my area. I'm using just about every meter of the 125usd tier, I bet they have tier bonus many times over to cover that tiny thorn in my side. So who's really the little guy in this case?

Also, I've seen people that if they don't like the way a sim looks, they build a skypod. Someone suggested I move my city to the sky as well. Big difference with relocating a prefab house and a half sim build. I also am using the water for one of my scenes involving a cargo ship and crane. Plus, I didn't invest all this time and money to be in the sky! the only other major landholder has the western edge with sunsets and infinite ocean view.

Also the price is obviously too high for anyone else to consider unless they are a huge fan of my build and in that case I'd chip in to get them in.

It's blackmail and sometimes part of the normal experience in SL.
That's not even the problem with me either. I can live without that lot.

What bothers me most is they are using lindens and rules set to protect small landowners from being bullied to harass and ruin it for me.

On top of that they are griefing me with objects and harassing me.

As someone mentioned earlier about ad farms, I should have the right to put up a wall or even totally surround an ad with a wall.

I think anything smaller than a 256m box should be disallowed. Creativity is what keeps SL alive and interesting. We create the content and without that imagination and diversity it would just be tropical residential island with ocean views. No Eiffel tower, no dance clubs, no rustic villages.

My city is on what is usually considered garbage land (unless you are a beach owner nearby). The available view is relevant to the majority landholder on a mainland sim. No Covenants, that's what the tab says in my land info. Maybe they should use meters owned like stock votes. to settle instances like this. If you want to have more control of the theme, own more land.

This would be a hopelessly absurd "rule," for obvious reasons of geometry: If four different people own four different sides of a parcel and each decides to build up to the parcel border, which one is in violation? All four get suspended? Nobody does?

I think the right answer is "nobody" and I think it's always been that way, except in cases where some Linden or other strayed over to the dark side. And I'll be glad to take a 4m wide swath along one side of the offending parcel--and I shouldn't think the Lindens could object to my adopting a style of build similar to that of the surroundings.

You are quite at welcome to think whatever you wish of course, but it hasn't; it has been explicitly forbidden and in cases where there were multiple landlords I recall that one of them has been told to pull down their blocking, chosen by some unknown criteria. Still, newer Lindens will not know this. I would personally not take any chances on the matter as any decision may be overriden by older and hierarchically superior ones.

Please explain what you mean by "explicitly forbidden". Is this actually written somewhere?

As the Lindens themselves have given conflicting answers on the question, and to my knowledge it is not addressed in writing anywhere, I think at best this could fall under "tradition".

Have you gotten friends and associates to AR these griefers too? Until then, it's your word against theirs, and one can only imagine the tales they are making up to tell to the Lindens in THEIR ARs.

Get witnesses. Better yet, get numerous witnesses, all ARing at once. That triggers the LL monitors.

And the narrow alleyway in and out sounds like a good solution, if the Lindens are really so obtuse as to require "access" for these assholes.

And you are being more than fair with these jerks. In fact, you are being unreasonably obligingt to them in my book. Get a Linden who has been a Resident, and if you get one that hasn't, tell him/her/it to pass you to one who has.

Now even I am beginning to despair of LL.

I have seen dozens of responses and in-world instances saying and illustrating that the activity was forbidden (coming from this forum mostly) ever since I have been here. No, it isn't written down anywhere, because this is SL and nothing is ever written down, particularly not anything involving rules. There _are_ no rules beyond the very vague; practically _everything_ is tradition; the consistency of enforcement is the only issue.

This one has been pretty consistently enforced in my experience, which is why I mention it here as a matter of advice. I am not here to win any arguments and do not particularly care whether anybody takes said advice, but the implication that I am lying or talking rubbish I do find a bit irritating.

I think arrogant build is a rude term for someone who has not seem his complex. It is not "huge" it is proportional to city buildings anywhere in rl.

If you own the land and your stuff is kept on it and it does not cause lag who has any business telling you what to do.

If you want a completely controlled area look at private sims. They can be very specific as to what they allow.

If you dont like Zombie City dont buy land inside it. If you dont like noise dont move next to an airport or train trax.

in my opinion

Yes, when it began I was able to get 4 SL Mentors to file complaints as neutral witnesses. Lindens have seen with their own eyes the griefing and cleaned it up but I don't have any idea if they suffered any consequences aside from the forced housekeeping. I asked but they said they can't tell me due to privacy issues.... comforting eh?

I didn't get the impression anyone was saying that, Ordinal. Seemed to me people were mostly venting about the idiocy of Lindens interpreting rules in ways that obviously aid and abet griefer-extortionists - which are as bad for LL as for anybody, because they tend to discourage paying customers from even being in SL.

If you got that impression from anything I said, I certainly apologize for the misunderstanding. And if anyone really does feel that way about Ordinal, please post and explain why. Saying this is what happens is different from defending what happens.

Balatri delendae sunt

Indeed. Tradition. Assuming that what Popo has written is true, and relatively unbiased, right here in this single conflict we have statements by one Linden Lab employee at odds with statements by another. The overall feel for these kinds of resident disputes seems to be for Linden Lab to stay as far away from it as possible, and only becoming involved when ToS or CS are clearly violated.

In the climate that Linden Lab themselves have (I agree necessarily) created with regard to resident disputes, I see little room for application of personal values or "tradition" when they actually are drawn into a conflict. Why? Not because a given decision might not be "the right thing to do". More often than not, it probably is. No, it's because the next time around, there will be a different Linden responding, and the outcome will be different for the resident parties involved.

Whatever the policy, it MUST be consistently applied and adhered to by all parties. No matter how this particular case is sliced up, there comes an inconsistency. Not good. It's time to gather the In-World team together for a policy review meeting, and better equip them to deal with situations like this.

That really sucks. It seems to me that with as many ARs as you've filed that the Lindens should be able to look at the situation and see that this is a matter of continued harassment and griefing. Why those people still have accounts is beyond me, honestly. Especially considering how many times they've rezzed blatantly offensive material on their land.

I really hope this ends in your favor. Otherwise... why have rules at all if flagrant violators are simply allowed to keep on with harassing acts?

But that said, I think you're doing the right thing by doing things by the book. At least you're not contributing to the problem and are trying to be a good SLer.

Not trying to get on your case, Ord. I think the problem is that although your experience has been that this "rule" is consistently enforced, other people are stating that it is capriciously applied or even completely denied by the Lindens. Obviously the confusion within LL ranks has contributed to the residents' misunderstanding of this issue.

Another thing to consider is that the implementation of point-to-point teleport really made "blocking in" a non-issue. Although many of us have no problem with other people wandering through our land, it just isn't necessary the way it used to be. That's probably why many of us newer folks just can't seen the point to a no-blocking rule.

This might be connected ? ..


Date: Saturday, October 20, 2007
Violation: Community Standards: Broadly Offensive Content or Conduct
Region: Left Of Heaven
Description: Broadly offensive content.
Action taken: Suspended 1 days.


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Date: Saturday, October 20, 2007
Violation: Community Standards: Violations using Alternate Accounts
Region: Left Of Heaven
Description: Alt account abuse.
Action taken: Suspended 3 days.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but they mean you can't box them in by ALL FOUR SIDES. So, put it up on two sides and let them complain. They aren't boxed in and LL shouldn't be able to do a thing, because by their own rules, it's three sides or more. I know this sounds VERY very petty, but it might give you a bit of relief not to see the stupidity all the time.

The linden sent back all the walls at all heights around that lot. I asked them if I can build on 2 or 3 sides or how high or close to their border am I limited to building. I was told not to build anything just yet and wait for the decision.

I would say the chances are very good that it is related.

1) Boxing in of a plot does NOT include ban lines. Any Linden that thinks it does needs to pull their head out of their @$$ RIGHT now. Banning is to prevent griefing. Period. End of story.

2) You can build anything right up to your property lines anyway. There is no "easment" anywhere on the Grid. Not with Point-to-Point Teleportation. The ban lines preclude the builds blocking people anyway (See above).

3) The "camera view" from this "supervisor" is a bunch of crap. You said you made those walls phantom. Well guess what? Phantom prims do not interfere with cameras. (Are Lindens actualy THIS stupid?) Besides the fact that the person only has a "right" to have his/her camera on their own land. Their camera being effected by other person's build is irrelevant. (If it isn't, I want the LL buildings on their sims taken down because they interfere with my view there.)

4) Quite frankly, I think you ran into a bunch of Lindens holding down the fort for the weekend that have about 2 IQ points tallied amoung allof them together. Call on Monday as well as send out e-mails, and Support Tickets, and be ready to reference all the #'s. For this weekend, I'm afraid you're stuck with Dumb&Dumber setting the rules at LL. And keep a record of all the names of the Lindens giving you this crap service. I'm not saying they need fired, but someone needs to sit them down and actually TRAIN them how to do their jobs ffs. If they don't know the rules themselves, put them back to making coffee for those that do. I take milk and sugar both in mine, thankyou.

~Jessy

*snorts* Two sides should be fine and frankly the boxing them in because of camera is completely BS on the 1024m, though maybe not for the 512. If that was the case, I could have AR'd my neighbors who weren't TRYING to grief me, because everyone had builds on each side. I had plenty of camera room, either way. The Linden that said that was obviously NEVER a resident... or they're wearing their head up their bums attachment

Here is one answer to a similar question in the old LL Answers. /139/de/115713/1.html

There may be other things, but... *shrugs*

I know there is more out there that mentions a Linden saying something about it.. but the search tool for the forum SUCKS.

I didn't mean to imply that at all, and I'm genuinely sorry if anything I wrote gave that impression.

On other posts about the lack of a written version: I do think the "rule" would look very strange, written down. Any self-respecting real-estate lawyer would have a dozen "what if" scenarios to demonstrate its absurdity.* It probably is a lot more compelling as an oral tradition, handed down from generation to generation of Lindens. Well, at least in one of the tribes.
_________
*Say, for example, Slimey McGreedy owns a parcel; I own land completely surrounding it, and Our Hero owns land completely surrounding that. Our Hero encloses my parcel on 2 sides, and I complete the enclosure on the *outside* perimeter of my land. Now Slimey is completely enclosed, but in fact the parcel has free access to my land on every side. Would Slimey still have a valid complaint?

i'm not going to read all the replies, because there are too many. but i read a few.

the most sage advice is to be patient, and wait until Monday for a wave of Lindens to get involved. maybe even abstain from logging in, to minimize your personal grief.

Lindens have already arrived several times and seen/removed the griefing, so your position is well established. please just wait for the 'real' meat of the company to handle this.

also, if you split your parcels, so that each side is owned seperately (all by you of course, or your alt, or a friend) then i see no reason why each parcel can't have one wall of its own. at worst, two sides can be totally blocked, and the other two can have short attractive fences (no more than 1.5m high) that compare to your decor.

no ban lines anywhere. it helps nothing anyway. don't grief back, even though you are very angry.

wait wait wait. you have been griefed and mistreated by both the realtors and Lindens, and now that much of SL is aware, they better watch their P's and Q's. if they let these realtors get away with it, a wave of downgrades will coem down like the hand of God and LL will lose their base income - tier. i hope they are smarter than that!

also, those realtors cannot be forced to lower the price of the land sales, but we all know that no one else is going to buy it, so you'll be safe there too. just wait. as Oryx has so wisely advised several times...

i look forward to hearing the outcome of this.

Visited the site, found the 1024 parcel owned by a "realtor." OP has a nice solution for the moment: The parcel is part of a quite large pool of water like an abandoned municipal swimming pool with a chain link fence around it. No access problem to complain about. No-one was there, escept another curious forum reader, so there was no griefing to observe. Now we'll see what the next move is in this little chess game.

One wonders what kinds of abuse reports the "realtor" might be sending to LL that might offset the OP's?

Thank you all for your support and ideas. I'm glad my perception isn't off about this.

I brought this up in the forum not only to confirm my sanity but to bring awareness of the problem. Hopefully I will be able to officially get both the definition of land owner rights and limitations to put up later on this thread.

Someone posted that any written rule would be made absurd by a real estate lawyer. Well luckily this isn't real life. This is a world that has many impossible RL properties; teleportation, phantom walls and invisible textures among other things.

It is a very simple rule or no rule. It needs to be a standard. How can you attempt to follow guidelines if they aren't specific.

I think if there is any doubt for a clear answer or a situation where both parties are in a stalemate, a judgment must be made based on motives and actions of both parties. Laws and rules are usually to protect. Deciding on whom to protect can be tricky. Judge and juries are part of the legal system for a reason.

Three things I believe I have in my favor is I was established in that sim long before the appearance of the griefer, I hold a large majority of the land, and that the land has a developed theme.

The actions of the people terrorizing me speak loudly of their true motives as well. It would be like me moving into Caledon and demanding they change their theme to accommodate my tropical island hut or I will grief them until they pay me a ransom.

If I knew before that I couldn't reasonably build what I want on my own land without being harassed, griefed and threatened I promise you I would have never gone premium let alone even bought my First Land 512 lot.

I'm hanging in for now but all will depend on this resolution. Let me know if anyone might be interested in buying me out, I'd sell at cost and leave SL before my next premium account charge and tier is due. Make sure you want tropical land theme!

The real loss would be that yet again alternative expression gets squashed by people that don't care about contributing to SL, only the money they can wring out while simultaneously killing it. Gone in the footsteps of Comic Chat... how depressing.

I am lead to believe from the previous post that they have been given a one day suspension.

I was cleared to put up the fence in an attempt to at least give it a look of purpose while expressing my feelings to disassociate that lot with my land. Other than that I can't build until I get my ruling, so I'm just hanging out reading the threads.

Don't miss the other realtor's 300 meter waterfall due east of the pool. They both bought the land the same day, same situations. What a treat!

All sane people I have spoken to about their experience with LL recruitment say that there isn't a salary high enough to get them to work there.

And to my recollection, Ordinal is more or less correct. I seem to remember the access easment provision written down somewhere next to a bit about "checkerboarding" 16m plots to impede someone from buying a contiguous plot. Unfortunately, as the ad farms show us, the checkerboarding is now implicitly allowed and so it wouldn't surprise me if the "access" provision is now effectively void, also.

Finally, the Lindens have never been consistent in any policy matter. I've even seen mutually exclusive answers being rendered by the same Linden on the same day.