Please read and let me know if I'm crazy or right

I’m not sure if this is the correct thread to post this so I apologize if it’s off topic. It was suggested I post this on the forum to get everyone’s feedback and let them know a possible injustice may occur which could effect you all by setting a dangerous precedence. I’ll explain the whole situation… sorry it’s so long.

Ok, I bought a small 1024m plot in Left of Heaven back in Aug 2007. Most of the land there was water lots with ocean access blocked on all sides with the western border occupied by 60m condos (so no sunsets). This made the land very undesirable as you all know and more than half the sim was for sale with no buyers.

I tried to sell my lot, paid for an ad and offered it for less than I even spent by going for fewer than 6.1L per meter. According to my visitor tracker, I didn’t even get one visitor that was interested. Seeing I was now stuck with it, I decided to make the best of the situation by buying up the other land to create an idea I had for a zombie city. I messaged the other lot owners and offered 6.2L per meter which was more than I tried to get and also more than average asking price. Some responded and we negotiated and I paid more per meter than originally offered. Everyone seemed happy, they got rid of the land and I expanded bit by bit to allow for my idea.

To keep the bordering sim landowners from getting too upset, I put up walls with an ocean view texture and made them phantom. I also asked if they had a texture they preferred or if they didn’t want the wall at all. I know it’s not the same as a real view but better than nothing. This was fine with most of the residents and I continued to build up until October 11th. By this time I had most of my city in place for a few weeks.

All of the sudden on a previously quiet Sunday, the sim had two real estate people descend upon it and purchased land within my already established city. I know what you might say now… my fault for not buying sooner but I was in negotiations the previous Thursday with the old owner to purchase and was waiting for him to return to set to our agreed price. One bought a 512 and the other a 1024 knowingly in the heart of my development although there were still lots available on the edges of the sims.

The Realtors stated they didn’t like my buildings and demanded I take them down. One Realtor demanded I pay for the land what they paid although I offered to swap for land on the edge of the sim but they turned it down. When I refused to change my buildings or pay their inflated prices, they started filling up the sim with very large prims of 100m or more. I couldn’t get to my land and I reported the abuse. I asked them to stop and they laughed at me. They had set the 1024 land to 80,000L then later set to 30,000L for 1024 when the previous prices were under 14,599 or less.

The large prims disappeared after an hour and they then built a 32x32x.8 prim spinning pyramid with pictures of feces on every surface that was at least 120m high. They also rezzed on the property no less than 100 particle generators right on the edge of their land facing out so it spit pink particles on to my areas. The sim was so laggy you couldn’t move at all. Again I reported to the abuse team and they came out and cleaned up.

They then put up a cube 32x32x40 referring to my property as feces (other word used) and then that disappeared a day later. For a few days they just had a prim floor and I thought it was over. Boy was I wrong!

I was told by lindens at first that I couldn’t ban people if they were completely surrounded by my land. Some sort of easement I wasn’t aware of. I was surprised because they can teleport or use LM to get there. I was also told I couldn’t put up walls to block their lot view from my land even though they were invisible from the inside and phantom. So I was forced to lift a ban and remove my facades. This didn’t seem fair and I was advised by several SL Mentors to check with a different linden.

Wednesday, more problems come up with griefers shooting trees all over my land even though they are banned with object entry/creation are turned off for all and they also start straddling the sim line just enough to keep me from being able to return the objects. I submit another 2 or 3 reports the griefing. Getting fed up with it, I talked to mentors again. They told me since I pay and own at least half sim I have concierge access.

I get a linden in chat and he tells me that I have the right to ban anyone from my land no matter where their lot is located and that I also have the right to build whatever I want on my land as long as it all exists on my land and doesn’t cause the sim to lag within reason. He tells me the previous linden is new and he will inform her of her mistake. The linden previously that had made the mistake comes in world, cleans up the problem, tells the griefers that I am not in violation and I happily return to building.

Another day goes by and the 1024 landowner returns. This time they place 50 spinning for sale signs on the lot and then put the for sale billboards and free plants so they are 2m or more on my land but I can’t send back since more than half is still on their side. I decide that the best way to resolve this is to ignore them and now that I had received clarification, I erected another facade to cover the view of their lot from my land that became a huge skyscraper Although they were banned from my land, I was careful to make sure it was totally transparent from inside, phantom, and all walls existed on my land. All seemed fine, I thought my solution would let them do what they want in there and I can ignore it.

Today I hop on SL and my protective wall is getting sent back by a linden. They say that I’m restricting parcel access and not to box the person in. I tell them of the earlier decision and they ignore me and warn not to box them in. As I go to assess the area, I see 8 spinning 32x32x.8 huge prims with the texture of the lot owner giving the finger. I file another abuse report; lindens clean up before I finish sending. 2 minutes pass by and as I’m finishing the report anyways from the previous problem the Realtor comes back and rezzes a 100m prim. It’s returned before I can get an abuse report filed and the Realtor leaves the sim.

By this time I’ve just had enough and insist that the lindens escalate the issue up to supervisor level or higher and allow me to speak with them to get a final determination of what I can and cannot do. The lindens in world and in web chat both ignore my request and keep insisting I not box them in but continue to file abuse reports if they continue.

Finally, the web chat linden says he’s let his supervisor know of my problem and requests me to provide all abuse ticket #s to pass on for her review. I tell him I will give them to her personally when I speak with her if she wants. I call the 800# and get the supervisor, she’s expecting my call I guess. I run through everything here and more.

I’m told that I cannot build if it boxes them in even though it’s on my land. I ask for clarification then how far out from their land is my building restricted, and I’m told I can’t build my skyscrapers if it boxes them in. I explain that I understand that the rules are set up to protect the modest lot owner from getting bullied out but this is not the case here. They can TP or landmark in and if they weren’t banned they could pass through the phantom walls.

Lindens then define boxed in that the camera view is limited while inside because they will only see my walls. If they are in a building they couldn’t see themselves without my walls anyways. They also state that no one can see the land is for sale. I respond that land shows up for sale on the sim map and also available in search. We talk for about half an hour, I am then told to expect a decision within the next 2 to 3 days by lindens so I need to wait it out. I ask if I need to take down any other walls, I’m told no I can wait for the decision.

Meanwhile, I go back to the sim and the other realtor is now starting problems. They have created a 200m tall waterfall on the 512 lot, advertising that they are blocked from flying but can teleport. This is on a sign with a tip jar asking for donations. They also start rezzing objects to straddle the land lines. Some get auto returned although there is a tree sticking out of one of my walls. I file another abuse report.

Then I start getting IM’s saying Hello little pig. I ask them to stop harassing me, they respond with lol. I tell them I am reporting to abuse team and they go away. 15 minutes later I get another IM from a different AV saying the same thing. They obviously think I set them to ignore so they try again. I don’t respond this time, just reference earlier report in new abuse report.

I’m feeling emasculated because I’m not fighting back and I’m following the direction to report everything. I continue to follow the rules and directions, they do not. No real actions taken to stop them that I can tell. No end in sight until I get my decision from the lindens.

The Realtor that owns this 1024 owns a whole sim nearby and didn’t like my city. If they were sincerely trying to build or reasonably advertising the land for sale it wouldn’t be a problem. The motive is obvious why they purchased the land. They have no intention of any legitimate reason to be here. They bought it to grief me, ruin my fun, disrupt my building and blackmail me into paying for the right to continue. I have been told to expect a decision within the next 2 to 3 days by lindens.

I think that certain cases must be judged by merit, especially when rules seem to counter each other. Actions speak louder than words. They grief and harass me but limitations are imposed on my buildings. I am here to create and have fun. I paid for the rights to build on my land and you would think 35km of a sim would afford you the peace to do what you imagine.

Isn’t SL based on the idea that we create what we can think of? Why do I have to build another cookie cutter tropical sim so I won’t be harassed? Why are rules that were created to protect people like me being allowed to be used as an instrument of harassment by predators?

I have spent hours upon hours creating someplace interesting, trying to add content, details and little touches to complete the illusion. I’m putting my heart, soul and credit cards into this… why can’t people just let me create? Any AV over 2 or 3 months old knows that at first a tropical sim is beautiful but totally uninteresting once you’ve been around.

Come see my land with an open mind, it’s in Left of Heaven sim. It might not be within your taste but hopefully you can appreciate all my hard work. Tell me here if you think my perception is off about land owner’s rights. How should this be handled? I want to know what your opinion is and what would you do if you were me? I will repost with the decision when I am notified. Thanks for reading this either way.

You're right, the "realtors" (which aren't realtors, just dickheads) are wrong, and LL needs to sit in favor of you. Good luck, and be patient.

What Oryx said
Also...... if you want people to come and have a look (and I certainly would go and check it out) it might be useful to post coordinates

Sorry, for not posting coordinates. It is kind of hard to miss though, it takes up a majority of the sim 35328 sq meters worth LOL! it starts at the eastern border of Left of Heaven. The designated landing point is 122, 19, 24 which should bring you poolside.

Wow, am there now ..... just a big swimming pool being advertised as a water lot with sunset view. If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

I can't say to much on here 4 obvious reasons but IM me in world & i can put you in contact with a group that will soon sort it out, they like sorting these problems out (and no i am not part of the group, but i have heard people use them when nasties like this happen)

This problem is emblematic of almost EVERYTHING wrong with LL.
First, incredibly idiotic customer support - giving conflicting answers, promising a solution that never arrives, failture to proactively communicate.

Second, the inability of the OP to DO anything about the problem, as long as he "plays by the rules". He's being PUNISHED by being in the obvious right. Two unscrupulous *sshats have decided to game the system, and are attempting to extort money from him. THEY should lose their land...and be banned. Harsh? Yeah...it is. But LL has seemingly taken NO interest in resolving what seem to be permanent griefer issues.

While a post like this is, indeed, one-sided - we haven't heard from the "realtors" involved - it's clear from the OP's point of view that he's done nothing wrong...and I can't help but agree.

Now, as far as "realtors" are concerened in SL - the majority of them are shiftless grifters, out to make a quick buck and unrealistically dream of becoming the "next Anshe". Not all of them are bad...some do above and beyond in their service to customers - and by providing interesting, creative environments for others to enjoy. But - they're the exception, rather than the rule.

LL tried to create a utopian, free, environment - without realizing the impossibility of that premise. So, rather than begin drafting reasonable restrictions, and actively enforcing them, they turn loose half-baked support personnel on the world, restrict their "help" to paying customers, and then consider issues "resolved" without even the decency of providing their customers a reach-around.

THIS is what threatens SL more than anything else. The failure to deal with customer support for a product they're offering. This even trumps the missing inventory problems that have me in a permanently bad mood, lately.

No Linden should be telling you what you can and cannot build on your land, unless it is reasonably considered to be a violation of either the Terms of Service or the Community Standards. Period. Those are the documents that govern our behavior in Second Life, not what Random Linden pulls out of his/her magic hat. (mega prims having an adverse effect on simulator/physics performance is adequately covered in Terms of Service as well as oft stated "Official" Linden Lab position, however I doubt this is at issue in your case)

There is no such thing as an "easement" on mainland. You are free to ban anybody, at any time, from a parcel of land that you own, no matter the unfortunate circumstance this might create for a neighbor. If a Linden tells you otherwise, that Linden is incorrect.

Lastly, as was previously mentioned, these people are not "Realtors". They are assholes.

I am using large prims in my builds. There are quite a few on my land but they don't go into other lots and I only used 32x32x10's or smaller. I read the a post by LL recently that stated that 32m prims are ok and larger ones are the cause of server issues. performance seems pretty good between griefing episodes. It can take a few minutes to rezz when you get there but that's normal for large builds huge prims or not. I think it's all the textures.

I'm at the build now; it's a great build, with a stupid 1024 smack in the middle, for sale for L$30,000. Nut jobs. Oh well. Patience, Grasshopper.

I find this story to be totally depressing.
People pine for a Linden - little knowing that if they do get a Linden then that Linden might be worse than useless.
It's incredible. There would appear to be a history here of Linden staff deleting the land-griefer objects, but for some reason, you get a Linden who can't take the history into account.
Maybe it's because their information system is total crap, and they can't access the history.
Maybe it's because the particular Linden was a completely untrained waste of space.

There was a mention in one of LLs blog postings that an increasing percentage of LL staff were never residents before they were employed by LL.
That implies to me that they are still not 'residents' and that they have no real concept of what the SL experience is. Hence you get these incredibly obtuse decisions by demi-god Lindens.

What we really need are a few adfarms in Ambleside.

Can't you build giant walls ON YOUR LAND?

I've done this many times at previous builds where there are adfarms are near by.

From what I understood, it is your land, build whatever you want as long as it is on your land and isn't generally offensive (ie. no feces pyramids)

Excuse me if I misunderstood what you wrote.

You must have spoken to MakeUpRulesAsIGo Linden

And yet... how many hundreds of applications from Residents who actually live here, and care about the place and the people, are sitting at the bottom of the heap gathering prim dust?

First off, there should be some system in place on the mainland to protect people from arrogant giant builds. Secondly, there should be places on the mainland where one is free to create arrogant giant builds. We call this zoning. In the real world, zoning prevents somebody from building a fire and steam factory next to your little white house with the picket fence out front. A Linden established zoning system could accomplish this. Perhaps too late for the existing lands, but a zoning system on future sims can prevent situations where one guy can ruin it for everyone else. As you can see by your experience, there is SOME zoning installed, you cant surround your neighbors with walls and then hit the ban switch on em, ect ect, they just need to expand it to address other various needs. So, to address the poll, yes I agree people should be able to do with their land what they wish, but no I dont think people should be allowed to build giant crap to the detriment of their existing neighbors. A catch 22 situation which can only be addressed by rules and regulations and ZONING. Zoning lets you know up front what you can do with your land before you go and blow the cash to purchase it. You then dont have to worry that some dick is gonna buy the property next door and particle the hell out of you. You may have to check the zoning on the adjacent sim if you plan on buying on a border.
I myself would prefer to build my giant Empire State building in an area with other giant objects. It would look totally half assed in a rustic little village. So I would buy land on a 'zoned for giant stuff' sim. In other news, as for your griefer neighbors, why the hell are these people still allowed in game????? I would think after the first half dozen varified complaints that these boneheads would have been suspended by now. Your Lindens experience has been lackluster, contradictory information being tossed at you and all, if it were my company I would find such stories an embarrassment.

As in real life, you can't have the "authorities" fight every one of your fights for you. You may like to assume the "state" (LL) is a great baby sitter, but in the end she always ends up chatting on the phone all night and the kids don't goto bed on time. No matter how many extra chances you give her, she doesn't care. She is getting paid and you keep inviting her back, so why change?

If they use an ALT and maybe jack a neighbours wifi connetion, they aren't going to be effected by your reports. On that note, If LL doesn't have, they need a system to form a Unique ID of a users computer (like Windows does for WGA) and then store that on their site also along with each account. Then rather then checking by IP or other info, they can check for duplicate Unique IDs.

I can kind of understand the issue over boxing someone in when (and only when) it affects their ability to camera around their own land. However, this is only a problem on VERY small parcels. Since I can cam around inside my 10x10 cabin, obviously there would be no problem for a 1024 (i.e., 32x32) parcel.

I seriously wish LL would train their customer service folks WAY better.

ETA: @ Winter - Please, no zoning on the mainland. That's what private islands are for. There needs to be a place for those of us who don't want to be limited by someone else's aesthetic.

One thing I forgot to mention is someone also was trying to hack my account. According to the email the IP address was from Europe (same as the Realtor). I know a lot of people are from there too but this happened immediately after lindens intervened on my behalf....coincidence?

I just visited your city - very imaginative build. Good luck to you.

I was amused to see from the realtor's profile that she considers herself "genuine, idealistic, and generous", and on her First Life page she exhorts us to "Relax, take it easy". I think she might want to add deluded to that list of qualities!

I'm perplexed by the Linden response - they usually say they can't get involved in resident disputes, but to side with the bully really takes the biscuit. As for saying you're not allowed to box people in - when was that rule put in place? Any Linden who believes that is the case is in urgent need of a tour of the Mainland!

Hope it is all sorted out soon.

Preventing access to a plot on all sides has been prohibited as long as I have been in SL.

On the other hand, so has using particle systems and spinning overlapping prims etc etc etc to harass neighbours. If it were me I would have expected the avatars concerned to have been banned a long time ago. I can only theorise that the case is being dealt with by a different Linden each time, none of whom are looking at any previous notes, or making any - I would take the names of each one and try to deal with the same person, or at the least refer whoever deals with the latest AR to the last one.

Of course, given that I'm there now and the _whole sim_ appears to be under banlines, I can't get close enough to see anything anyway.

I have been giving the impression that we can do whatever we want on our properties as long as it not obscene or graphically violent images that everyone can see.
And Lindens policy is they will not involve themselves in our disputes over land.
The rental agents have no right to tell you what you can build or not build...or they can but you're not obligated to do anything either way.
And Lindens have no powers to do anything about it unless you're shutting down the entire
sim because you have forty campers and only own small part of it.
That why there are awful builds, rotating signs, ad farms and people charging for 512m2 lot for extremely large amounts.
When did the policy change?

It has always been disallowed to block access on all sides of a parcel for as long as I have been here, and there are numerous examples of Lindens removing builds and banlines and even suspending because of it. It is one of the few firm rules that _do_ exist, come to think of it. Of course, newer Lindens may not know this rule. I don't think that there is any sort of handbook.

Separate out a thin parcel leading to the edge for the person's access, then ban them from the rest.

Maybe the thin parcel could be an alley between buildings.

I am astonished that these idiots haven't been suspended by now, with all the abuse reports you've filed. Perhaps they are well-connected. Or perhaps since they are land dealers, they pay a lot more in monthly tier than you and are favored because of this.

As far as I'm aware, building walls around their lot is NOT considered blocking their access as long as the walls are phantom so they can fly through them.