Did Aristotle/Integrity PAY LL to become the AV and IDV source?

You are entitled to you own opinion about my motives same as Dnate is.

You both are also entitled to be wrong.

Which in my opinion - Since I happen to know my own motivation, its probably an educated one - you both are.

If either of you had been following the other threads closer Im not sure you would have felt the same way. Since it was me responding to someone bringing this up that led to this thread.

Yes that large scary list is everything they already have about you from before you even heard about the company.


No they won't get all those extras from LL. The only thing they will get is


SECONDLIFE USER yes/no


which I personally think rates about as useful as


COOKING yes/no


That's it. No recreation proclivities and no expenditures. If they have got more information than that they would be advertising that information on that big list that they are selling to marketers. Do you think Aristotle maintains some kind of secret LL user data for their extra-premium customers? How long do you think they'll stay in business once that gets out? How long will LL stay in business once that gets out.

A good question - but also - A lot of places that have sold mailing lists, etc, stay in business just fine.

Such as Chip Mentioned - credit cards.

I do definitely see your point that I dont see how useful the fact you use SL is.

So it would have to be more than that theyd be looking for.

Yes, I know what has been said. I have read most of the posts. But I also have to ask myself what good does posting this as a thread do? You know that Lindens don't answer questions like this.

So, then why post it? No one know what exactly the contract says. It has been kept hush. If you read the press release from LL,

Notice the key word there... pre-existing. So, then are you going to believe what LL says and therefore making this thread pointless, or are you not going to believe what LL says and still, this thread is pointless. So unless you wanted to plant the seed in people's mind that this is what LL is really doing, the thread is pointless.

During one of the sweeps months a while back, one of the stations had a story about some of the questionable practices of Aristotle. They tried to get the station to withhold the story, but didn't happen.

I did an article on this for the Metaverse Messenger recently. Robin told me that contractually nothing is stored by either company other than the authentication code being stored by LL.

I then asked about if the contract was breached and she pointed out that should the data be stored and then used for whatever, the consequences would be horrendous given everyone and their uncle would sue them, LL included.

So whilst I don't trust the company doing the verification the contract that LL created with them is at least aimed at protecting our data and seems to be properly thought out.

ok .... you " data" already exists, if you have EVER purchased ANYTHING online ... or filled out a form etc then its already out there, The reason that they need such little information depends on how much they can get already.

So for example.... In me verifing I tell SL who I am IRL, they ask Integrety wether that information corrilates with RL data on that indevidual if the answer is YES then your veritifed. You arnt passing NEW information to ANYBODY ..... you actually letting LL check that you are who you say you are. LL dodnt care what you do in SL... if they did it will already be banned 8s* BUT they do care if you do something illeagal and leave them open to prosecution.

Now its in LL's therefor ultimately the communities interest to do this, you want the freedom to be able to do what you want yet this really isnt the case, if you think about it... the information you provided at sign up is correct for maybe 60% of REAL people. You have all manner of data agencies like Electoral Role Regsiters, Credit Card information... all of this data is available NOW. Of course you have your countries legislation to protect you.... but the ONE thing that IS for sure is that its pretty likely if you DONT sign up for verification you may find yourself NOT getting into a LOT of areas because you want to keep that anonymity. Things like bots wont be able to do things in parcels that are ranked mature becasue they arnt verified..... BUT of course please dont kid yourself into think that you actually can do anything about it.... if LL want it .... they demand it ... therefor as a consumer of the LL service you have no choice outside of whats evidently available.

Theres a big difference between the follwing questions

Is Martin ****** post code ***** above 18? yes/no, Integrety replies with a yes becasue the details they have corrilate with the fact that I live in the country I say I live and I am over the age of 18.

This information may allow me to visit gambling areas etc becasue its legal in my country and visit areas of sexual content becasue again its legal n my country.

and

Martin ****** with the post code of ****** plays second life heres his email address, age, he like doing X Y Z... heres the data you can have if you verify them for us.



I know for certain I have tried to go to website in the past for movie trailers etc ... and its rejected me as I live in the UK (ip addy), so I think LL are ultimately trying to not only verify age ... but also develope the systems to make sure that you comply with you countries legal system. I know you may all say that SL is like a seperate country ... but it might come as a shock to you .............. it isnt
your AV doesnt exist in ANY FORM!!!! .... what IT says is what YOU type... therefor it IS you or at least part ofyour inner self in some way. You have to conform with your OPWN countries legal requirements ..... but certainly not anothers.. If you like BDSM for example and your country says its legal ... then theres no reason that with the information at hand LL can identify that you havnt broken any law therefor you are within YOUR rights to explore your inner self... likewise .... as an american ... online gambling is illegal ... so you cant gamble ... but in the UK its legal .. so i can.... in reality .. isnt a metaverse about trying to give a compromise between systems becaseu the one thing that I CAN see ... is that unverefied systems lead to anarcy ..... griefing.... illeagal activities that LL would find themself possibly having to close....





your call

Not So.

There is a clear conflict between what Robin L has stated on the blogs and Official Aristotle statements respecting data storage.

Statement by Aristotle Official:

"When the one-time verification is completed, the company returns a verification score back to LL and does not use people’s information for any other purposes. However, Colopy said a record of the verification process is retained so the company could re-examine it if there was “an overwhelming legal requirement to do so.”

http://www.slpixelpulse.com/2007/05/27/your-world-your-imagination-your-first-life-identity/[/url

Also note the specific language chosen by Robin:

"that CONTRACTUALLY nothing is stored "

(Sounds like a Tony Snow White House "News" Briefing.)

In other words, Aristotle is not required by the contract to store anything. However, it does not say Aristotle can not on its own volition choose to store data.

Also. the standard Aristotle contract includes a very tight limitation of liability clause that would negate any lawsuit filed by LL.

Respecting the prospect of SL residents suing Aristotle lots o luck on that on paying your lawyer and proving speculative damages. Aside from the fact that SL residents will have no contractual relationship with Aristotle.

.



.

I'd be inclined to accept that. It's entirely reasonable.
The way it would work is that we go to a SL-dedicated verification portal.
LL generates a matchcode for the avatar name and passes that matchcode *only* to the Integrity routines.
Integrity 'verifes' whatever input it is given and returns an affirmative on the matchcode to LL.
LL uses the matchcode to flag the avatar as verified.


The possibilities for intrusion by Integrity do not lie in the SL/Integrity interface. They lie in the Integrity data collection.
For most of the world, Integrity will verify based on Name, Date of Birth, and Postcode *only*. That's it! It verifies nothing. For some countries they also require a telephone number. The other more sensitive data on their entry screens is 'Suggested' only. However, It is probably that many people will enter that information also, giving Integrity some rich data that they could not otherwise obtain.
They don't require the additional data, but they ask for it anyway.
There is a huge commercial benefit for integrity in obtaining that additional data from as many people as possible. If they have sensitive non-public data on a person, then the next time that person goes through a verification for some other service, Integrity can use that data as a better indicator that this is not some John Doe impersonating the named person.
The richer their database, the more they can sell their services with an assurance that they can actually verify whatever data is submitted to them in a verification process.

I don't think that LL residents in particular are of enough interest to them that would give a huge discount to LL, let alone pay LL for the privilege. They probably use the same sensitive data fishing technique in everything they do.
They are basically an insurance company. Their actuaries would have looked at LL's *real* population figures and worked out both the numbers of verifications and the odds on LL being sued. They are a business, with a responsibility to their shareholders to make a profit.



To drift off-topic a bit: A posssible major downside for a person is that if someone has already (falsely)used their name/dob/post-code combination in an Integrity entry and supplied random non-public information (which integrity would have been unable to verify). then the genuine person could have difficulty in being verified.

As for the USA, where your Data Protection regime is effectively non-existent, I really do wonder if Integrity would get any more on you than they already have. They just get a record that you (or strictly speaking, the person using your data to verify) are a SL user.




There are FAR more interesting and real questions to be answered than this conspiracy theory.

It seems clear that:
Verification is being introduced *solely* to insure LL against the costs of being sued.
LL have no intention/ability whatsoever to do anything real to either get minors off the grid or to stop the flow of new minors signing up.
LL have no intention/ability whatsoever to do anything real to prevent minors from viewing and taking part in restricted content. Minors will verify as adults. That's a no-brainer.


Some interesting questions therefore are:
1. Does this do anything to keep minors away from restricted content?
- Absolutely not.

2. Does this increase the exposure of residents to legal action?
- I think it does. Minors freely roam over all of the grid and will continue to so in increasing numbers as verified adults. It's just a matter of time before someone bites.
LL are advertising the fact that there's a system in place prepared to pay up against successful claims. Be prepared for a flood of insurance scams.
Lawyers will join LL and the resident in the suit. LL and Integrity will have a busload of lawyers. The resident will be named in the suit and will have Coco the Clown as a lawyer if it comes to court.

3. Does the Integrity insurance extend to residents who are sued?
- I believe it does not, even if residents flag their content. Residents don't have a contract with Integrity. Even if they did, they'd still be named via subpoena.

4. Who wants a slice of pie?
- Everybody, and they might end up looking for your little pie if they can't get a slice off someone with a bigger pie.

5. Any good news?
- Yes. Your little pie might be far to small and unappetising for a lawyer - or not. All you might have to worry about is any fallout from the RL publicity.

6. Why is LL insulting our intelligence with this child-safety and trust rubbish?
- *sigh*

Yet you still feel justified calling me a liar. Nice.



If a threads futility were scale by which we measured threads around here wed have about 3 threads per week.

I am not in the data mining business. I dont know exactly how it works

Its entirely posssible like some have said that keeping these databases current is a motivation.

So while they might have pre-existing data on you, IF they wanted to update that information (such as if you moved) or they want to fill in some hole they have - This could have value to them.

If I understand the blog correctly, Aristotle is providing an indemnity to LL about this. If that's the case, it would be odd for Aristotle to be paying LL on top of providing an indemnity -- normally an indemnitor is getting paid for providing an indemnity, or at least they are the party getting the economic value. But it's possible that in this case, if Aristotle is planning to use this data, that this substantial value transfer from LL would be enough to support providing an indemnity to LL.

if you flag your parcel as mature ..... then a 10 year old who verified as an adult sees your stuff .... then makes a complaint ... its moot as the child fraudulently stated they were an adult.. so case closed.

When you sign up for SL you are asked your date of birth and confirm you are over 18 - so even if the 10 year old hasn't verified as an adult, and even if you didn't flag your parcel as mature, the child has still fraudently stated they were an adult to be on the main grid in the first place!

Matthew

It's not that clear cut. Bars and liquor stores still get hassled by the police for providing booze to underage drinkers, even if those minors provided "fake ID" (ie, fraudulently stated they were of age). The law often errs on the side of being a hard-ass when it comes to minors to encourage others to superpolice the situation.

But a minor currently on the main grid has fraudulently stated to be an adult also?

Morwen.

whether true or not thats off topic - there are other recent threads for that stuff.

Though I would love a hard cut in stone answer to the questions raised in this thread I don't believe we will ever get them. LL does not deal in absolutes.

Given that, the only choices we as players have is to age verify or not. If we choose not to we simply have to accept that there will be places on the grid we cannot enter and that in the future LL may very well make age verification MANDATORY for everyone. It fits thier pattern of behavior. First voluntary and when that fails make it mandatory.

At that point all those who refuse to Age verify can do is leave. From past experiences, some will go but most will stay and comply (with a great deal of grumbling).

Personally I have serious misgivings about the company involved in doing the verifications. Am I going to Age Verify? Maybe. If they are only requiring Name, DOB and Addy well that info is already out there on the web I have little to lose. If they require more? I will hold out till it becomes mandatory and reasses my involvement in SL.

That's not how it's working, nor how it was intended to work. For that scenario to be true, LL and Integrity would be sharing personal information between each other, they've already said that's not happening. All LL receive is a code from Integrity to say that the details they've received for that particular avatar match the details of an adult. There are no personal details shared.

This is why people have been able to verify with false details. Completely different details to those LL have on file.

As for shopping online, sure plenty of details about me from that. I've never had to enter my passport number to shop online though. Integrity don't have access to that information.

Tru. Same for SSN. Other than my bank, DMV and IRS, I've never givien amy part of my SSN to anyone online.