Did Aristotle/Integrity PAY LL to become the AV and IDV source?

A simple yes or no question.


I think this question cuts right to the heart of the whole "What are going to do with my data?" problem.


If the answer is yes - what possible motivation could Aristotle/Integrity have had OTHER than data mining?

Hmmmmm....Might be an Investigative Expose for The Broadly Offensive Post....Neumann!!!!!!

Ha I've tried to raise a similar question inworld, what's in it for Integrity? That really would go a long way to answering data protection issues. They're not a charity and they're not doing it for love.

Colette, you know I love you, but...isn't this pure speculation on your part? Or do you have some reason to believe that it might be the case?

Something I read earlier today, about LL charging a small fee to Basic members to pay for the verification process, leads me to think that it's the other way around...LL is paying Integrity for the service.

Back when this was first discused the small fee was a negligible amount - less than 10 Lindens for premiums.

And Maybe a small amount more for non premiums.

Thats not a fee thats just a record keeping system.

It isnt my speculation - I havent even been on the "against" side of this Identity verification system

People have been bringing it up and it seems to me this is one rumor Linden Lab should be able to EASILY clear up.

If they cant easily answer it, we (all of us) have a problem.

Of course it's speculation, that's why she is asking. Many things start out as speculation. Watergate started out as speculation. It's when statements based on speculation are passed off as fact you have the problem.

And on a more personal level - I will not be verifying until I know the answer to the question.

Brilliant question.

The kind of question that makes me wonder we don't have Prime Minister's Question Time here anymore.

But then I remember that the last town hall I attended was in December 2006, and there probably haven't been any more due to questions like this.

Relevant excerpted points from the blog*:

• What personal information will you store? Linden Lab will not store any specific, identifying information. Our verification provider will assess the consistency of the provided information and return a match code; at that point, a Resident becomes verified. The entire process takes less than two minutes, and will be available internationally. Our verification provider will only use information to provide a match code and the only information stored by Linden Lab will be whether or not there was a match.
• Do I have to pay for verification?
 Verification will initially be free; as we roll out the system we expect there to be a nominal fee for Premium members, and a larger fee for people with Basic memberships.
• Will my personal information ever be shared with anyone else? Linden Lab does not share Resident data for marketing or other purposes, but does of course comply with requests from all governmental and regulatory authorities and with court orders including subpoenas.

========

I didn't find any other sections that address the original question. To my eye there seems to be an intentional sidestepping of what - in fact - Aristotle will do with the data. For example, it states that LL won't be retaining anything but the verified/un-verified status, yet says nothing about what Aristotle will retain.

They state that Aristotle will match against data that they already have. But Aristotle gets a rather valuable bit of information in the exchange: they find out that you are a player of SL and that is generally extremely predictive of political leanings (Aristotle's main business) and recreational proclivities and expenditures. On the whole, I'd pay huge amounts of money for a mailing list of SL players if I was a marketroid or pollitico.

I welcome any LL statements that specifically refute this conjecture.

* http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/08/29/identity-verification-comes-to-second-life/

This doesn't *definitively* answer your question, of course - but based upon Aristotle's existing clientelle, I think the smart money is on Linden Lab paying Aristotle for use of their identity verification service:

http://lindenlab.com/press/releases/08_29_07



Considering Aristotle already has an existing customer base, I think they'd have little to gain by *paying* Linden Lab for their service. If you look at some of the examples of those customers - the PR hit vs. profit for selling identity information doesn't seem remotely worth it.

Occam's razor says that, all things being equal: the simplest solution is the right one. In this case, I think its much more likely that Linden Lab has *contracted* with Integrity to provide their service, for a "cost-effective" fee.

Of course, since none of this can be confirmed - (and Linden is unlikely to share the financial terms of whatever agreement they inked with folks who don't have a seat on the board) - we're all free to conclude the most sinister posibilities if that's what floats our proverbial boats

I dont see LL contracting a Data verification system any "Simpler" then a Data mining company buying a mailing list. From my point of veiw Occrams razor is moot since they are both rather simple explainations.



It should be easy enough for LL to say whether they paid for this service or Aristotle paid them,

That doesnt reveal the details of the financial deal.


For example -

Ive paid money to LL before. That doesnt tell people how much money I spent on Second Life.

/shrug - I guess I just see it differently. The validity of the Identities Linden Lab has already are in question to begin with: that's why they're contracting with Aristotle.

Frankly, if I were Aristotle, and I wanted *valid* identities - I wouldn't try to scam lists from my subscribers - I'd attempt to work with the source (Governments). From their clientelle list - it appears that's exactly what they're doing.

But I'm guessing just like you are, Colette - so my points aren't any more valid than yours, really.




Should be. Maybe someone can ask this specific question at Robin's office hours, or the next town hall. Of course, once they give their answer... will that be enough, and will we believe it?

Heh - found one more thing. Still doesn't mean the question shouldn't be asked of Linden Lab, of course - but deep in Integrity's website, they talk about where the data comes from:

http://www.aristotle.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=145



As a side note - what's interesting - if you click the world map on that page I linked above, it'll tell you what sort of identifying data you need to provide relative to the country you're from. I think that's a question many have been asking too.

/me blinks.

Good dog!

Well it will matter a lot to me. I didnt suspect their motives really - just didnt like how they were going about it.

But if its true that Integrity paid them - I would suspect their motives a lot.

And this is I suspect what Integrity really gets out of this deal with LL (and perhaps offered a good discount because of it).

Integrity cannot get hold of the government databases in the UK to verify on more than postcode - however if you read their literature that hasn't stopped them lobbying the government on how important such information is for verifying online.

Now, they can start using the argument that because the UK government will not license them this data, UK minors are not protected from accessing inappropriate content in SL (and other social networking sites). Presumedly they'll be making the same lobbying claims in other countries too!

Matthew

For the UK it says I need to provide first name, last name, postcode and date of birth. So almost any of my RL friends could verify as me? I really cannot see how this in any way verifies that I am who I say I am.

Interestingly I note they claim to be able to verify ID for Iraq and Afghanistan - which sounds like it might be a useful thing for the US and UK governments to be able to do - and Somalia - which hasn't had a meaningful government for 20 years.




Do you really think playing SL says anything much about political leanings?

This is true. That's the information I provided and I'm verified. Well i provided some extra address information too but no passport or driving licence number. So in theory, any of your friends could verify as you with that information.

When we signed up and registered for SL we wanted to play Second Life, we worked with the company that provides Second Life.

Now they want to use a 3rd party for our Age and Identity information. Okay I understand the why.

The problem thats catching me is the How.

A few simple basics would come to mind.

1- They need to make sure they arent working with someone who will sell our data.
2- They need to make sure they arent working with someone who will use our data.
3- They need to make sure they are working with some who will keep our data secure.

If aristotle paid LL for the privledge of handling our data - I dont see how LL can honestly claim those 3 things.

Rule 4: No Poofters

There was a lengthy explanation on the most sensible answer to this, from Gwyneth Llewelyn. It's summarized on http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2007/09/09/deeper-thoughts-gwyneth-scrutinizes-integrity/index.html and shown in full at http://gwynethllewelyn.net/2007/09/08/i-am-who-i-am.

Particularly note the comment where Gwyneth says...

Given the content of Integrity's homepage, the "Occam's razor" style of deduction would clearly say, LL just got themselves some insurance. As SL starts to become a big deal, they have to fear big lawsuits.

All I get is "You are not authorized to view this resource." Have you outed yourself as an Aristotle insider?!

I can see this explanation.

However I can not see them thinking Integrity would PAY them to insure them.

Or rather -did they want insurance so much they were willing to let their customers be data mined?



Basically - We need to know whast in this for Integrity.

If they are getting a dollar US for evey verification they do, Okay then it makes sense theyd agree to keep things confidential.

If they have instead a big yearly contract for a chunk of change - enough to cover their costs and profit on. Then it still makes sense.

If instead they are paying LL .. well they wheres their money coming from to do this wonderful service?

Well sweet Lindal... I know it very common to first pay a company to get an contact for a certain service from them.... but being paid for delivering the service on individual base.

Morwen.

I think ....

That for the premium and existing basic members... who (according to unsubstantiated rumour and what i have heard from close to one source, and i claim no more than that) any information they give will be a gift to Integrity/Aristotle. Its not required to verify them, its just data as a gift.

When Age Verification/ IDV comes in for the new signups, these new sign ups will be required to verify in order to access restricted parcels, and will need to pay for it. At that point Integrity/Aristotle start earning the gift.

Sorry to harp on.. but i am very cynical about anything that appears to be 'free' in this or any world.

imogen