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Did Aristotle/Integrity PAY LL to become the AV and IDV source? |
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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09-20-2007 13:46
Given the content of Integrity's homepage, the "Occam's razor" style of deduction would clearly say, LL just got themselves some insurance. As SL starts to become a big deal, they have to fear big lawsuits. And to a question raised above, yes I do think that playing SL is highly correlated with a number of political and socio-economic factors. Even if only 70% of the players fit a particular grouping, you still know vastly more about that population than if you lack that information. |
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Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
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09-20-2007 13:46
I see the connection Colette's trying to make...but wouldn't it be better to get a direct answer to her underlying questions, i.e.,
- will LL and/or Integrity keep any of the data? - will either one of them use the data for other purposes? - how will they both insure the confidentiality of the data? I don't really care too much about who pays whom. I do care who gets to see my personal data, and what they will do with it. _____________________
It's still My World and My Imagination! So there.
Lindal Kidd |
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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09-20-2007 14:00
Heh - found one more thing. Still doesn't mean the question shouldn't be asked of Linden Lab, of course - but deep in Integrity's website, they talk about where the data comes from: http://www.aristotle.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=145 As a side note - what's interesting - if you click the world map on that page I linked above, it'll tell you what sort of identifying data you need to provide relative to the country you're from. I think that's a question many have been asking too. The site illustrate neatly how utterly worthless the Integrity validation as a form of age verification. For all of Europe, Brazil and Australia, Canada the data required for verification are First Name, Last Name, Post Code, Date of Birth. A telephone number is required for France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Finland, Brazil and Canada. Other information is "Suggested" only. A minor does not even have to check a parents passport, driver license or SSN. They can feed the basic data for a parent, a neighbour, or just any random John Doe to Integrity and Integrity will verify them as an adult. |
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Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
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09-20-2007 14:01
I get confused.
Are we complaining that they want too much info or that they don't collect enough info to be useful? _____________________
Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!!
- Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 - If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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09-20-2007 14:03
I get confused. Are we complaining that they want too much info or that they don't collect enough info to be useful? Yes. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Al Sonic
Builder Furiend
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 162
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09-20-2007 14:17
However I can not see them thinking Integrity would PAY them to insure them. It's indeed a good idea to ask the Lindens for clarification on what exactly the arrangement is, and about the accuracy of the theories going around, but asking further here appears to only gather speculation on wild speculation... not so useful. (At worst, people eventually seem to confuse mere speculation for well-supported ideas....) Likewise Malachi still does have a point to inquire about. It doesn't sound big enough to make me worry, but maybe that's just me. Just to openly reveal my political affiliation... I'm registered Republican. Sling: There's an interesting discussion about that too. The, what seems "worthless", validation is covered around... Some people have provided false details just to prove a point regarding how flawed the system is. However this brings us back to Gwyn’s main point that this is more of an insurance policy than an ID verification policy and I wish people would be open about that. If you prove false details and find yourself in trouble, then you’ll have no insurance. Comment by Ciaran Laval • @ September 12, 2007 @ 10:20 pm Meade & Brenda:  That was funny._____________________
If I said a thing ya don't understand, lemme know. I too love it when info is easy to read
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Infiniview Merit
The 100 Trillionth Cell
Join date: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 845
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09-20-2007 14:17
Without taking sides on the issue the question that came to my mind is...
in the event that Aristotle does not stay in business and instead goes out of business or is bought out, what will prevent them from selling all that information to the highest bidder regardless of that bidder's ethics? _____________________
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Mephisto Offcourse
Registered User
Join date: 19 Aug 2007
Posts: 36
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09-20-2007 14:23
This doesn't *definitively* answer your question, of course - but based upon Aristotle's existing clientelle, I think the smart money is on Linden Lab paying Aristotle for use of their identity verification service: http://lindenlab.com/press/releases/08_29_07 Considering Aristotle already has an existing customer base, I think they'd have little to gain by *paying* Linden Lab for their service. If you look at some of the examples of those customers - the PR hit vs. profit for selling identity information doesn't seem remotely worth it. Occam's razor says that, all things being equal: the simplest solution is the right one. In this case, I think its much more likely that Linden Lab has *contracted* with Integrity to provide their service, for a "cost-effective" fee. Of course, since none of this can be confirmed - (and Linden is unlikely to share the financial terms of whatever agreement they inked with folks who don't have a seat on the board) - we're all free to conclude the most sinister posibilities if that's what floats our proverbial boats  Well, Aristotele itself may not have any gain in it but when you see this it all has a complete new perspective http://www.aristotle360.com/ Quote from their website: What’s new about Aristotle 360 is the way it incorporates powerful data mining tools to spot and show relationships between donors you know and those you would like to know. The same goes for elected officials, corporate board members, Fat Cats and ordinary voters. The web-based system outlines relationships that can be targeted for votes, dollars, or grassroots support. It’s the computer equivalent of ‘a friend of a friend is my friend.’ Your Information Source on all things 360 Please visit this site often for the latest news, releases, and information regarding Aristotle 360 products and services. According to whois its the same company ......... Wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of nice new datasets to enter into this? Such as SL users maybe? |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-20-2007 14:28
I see the connection Colette's trying to make...but wouldn't it be better to get a direct answer to her underlying questions, i.e., - will LL and/or Integrity keep any of the data? - will either one of them use the data for other purposes? - how will they both insure the confidentiality of the data? I don't really care too much about who pays whom. I do care who gets to see my personal data, and what they will do with it. If Aristotle pays Linden Labs I cant trust any of those statements. My "There's no free lunch" suspicion is too strong. Paying LL to recieve microdollar payments in return? It stretches the bounds of plausability. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-20-2007 14:31
Um... which makes it unlikely that they are? Sorry, I just don't see why we bother to keep bringing this up. Since when did we keep bringing it up - I only heard this rumor yesterday. Are we so unimportant to LL that we dont deserve a straight answer? Who are the adults around here anyhow? |
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Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
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09-20-2007 14:33
http://www.aristotle.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=228&Itemid=143
Am I allowed to laugh? If this map they use is truly the lead for age-verification... minors will just have access as ever before. Nothing will change. Morwen. |
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Al Sonic
Builder Furiend
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 162
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09-20-2007 14:52
Sorry Colette, maybe it's just that speculative worries about Integrity - ones very much like this - seem to be brought up all the time. The worry is getting to be old news.
And hey, I agree, we should make sure LL gives a more plain, straightforward explanation of what's being arranged here. They kinda took their initial announcements and explanations from the wrong angle. _____________________
If I said a thing ya don't understand, lemme know. I too love it when info is easy to read
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Imogen Saltair
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 682
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09-20-2007 16:18
SNIP we should make sure LL gives a more plain, straightforward explanation of what's being arranged here. I would really really like to know how to do that imogen _____________________
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-20-2007 16:27
Sorry Colette, maybe it's just that speculative worries about Integrity - ones very much like this - seem to be brought up all the time. The worry is getting to be old news. And hey, I agree, we should make sure LL gives a more plain, straightforward explanation of what's being arranged here. They kinda took their initial announcements and explanations from the wrong angle. Yep - I just want to make sure every I is dotted and T is crossed on the plan before I give someone my information. Becuase after fifty thousand people fork it over and thousands of people start shouting theyve been added to mailing lists, its going to be a bit too late to put the genie back in the bottle. I know what LL is getting out of this - I want to know what Aristotle is getting out of this. It SHOULD be a honest days pay for an honest days work. And not the keys to trade people's info. Id much rather pay a couple USD to verify and have my data safe then pay 10L$ and it not be |
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Bree Giffen
♥♣♦♠ Furrtune Hunter ♠♦♣♥
Join date: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 2,715
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09-20-2007 19:12
I think I understand how this works.
What LL knows (your avatar name) (your email address) (maybe your cc info) What Aristotle knows (your name, address, and last 4 digits of ssn, which they already have) (that you're a verified user of second life) Basically the only thing Aristotle gets out of verification is that they now know you are a user of second life... that's it. They don't know your avatar name or your spending habits... they don't have access to what LL knows about you. Linden Lab on the other hand knows you are an adult, and they know your avatar name and alts, and your email address. Pretty much the same things they've always known. Ugh. I hate that I'm defending this whole thing. I guess I'm trying to find something to soothe my worries. _____________________
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-20-2007 19:15
I think I understand how this works. What LL knows (your avatar name) (your email address) (maybe your cc info) What Aristotle knows (your name, address, and last 4 digits of ssn, which they already have) (that you're a verified user of second life) Basically the only thing Aristotle gets out of verification is that they now know you are a user of second life... that's it. They don't know your avatar name or your spending habits... they don't have access to what LL knows about you. Linden Lab on the other hand knows you are an adult, and they know your avatar name and alts, and your email address. Pretty much the same things they've always known. Ugh. I hate that I'm defending this whole thing. I guess I'm trying to find something to soothe my worries. Well like a previous person said - they might be trying to UPDATE their mailing lists too. Evidently some information is often wrong or out of date .. My Brother shows up on my Dad's credit report all the time, becuase they have the same name, And shared addresses for years, etc. |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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09-20-2007 20:22
Linden Lab on the other hand knows you are an adult, Ugh. I hate that I'm defending this whole thing. I guess I'm trying to find something to soothe my worries. How can this system assure Age verification? It can't. A minor can simply enter a parents data which is what they already did--and if they didn't they will know how to open a new account and this time use parent data to begin with, rather then something they just made up out of thin air. All very unsettling, providing no assurance that the mature grid will no have minors in it and really no valid protection. The company is a data miner plain and simple and no way LL would need to pay for this IMO, other then the intial expenses of setting it up.  |
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Tomas Gandini
Just Me!
Join date: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 384
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09-20-2007 20:41
I think I understand how this works. What LL knows (your avatar name) (your email address) (maybe your cc info) What Aristotle knows (your name, address, and last 4 digits of ssn, which they already have) (that you're a verified user of second life) Basically the only thing Aristotle gets out of verification is that they now know you are a user of second life... that's it. They don't know your avatar name or your spending habits... they don't have access to what LL knows about you. Linden Lab on the other hand knows you are an adult, and they know your avatar name and alts, and your email address. Pretty much the same things they've always known. Ugh. I hate that I'm defending this whole thing. I guess I'm trying to find something to soothe my worries. Don't kid yourself that that is all they know about you. Aristotle's Integrity maintains critical background data for individuals in over 150 countries. Available data sets may include (1) full name, (2) full address, (3) year of birth, (4) phone number (when available) and (5) cell phone number (when available). The unique value added by using Aristotle is the source of our international data. Our core data assets include government issued ID data. In most cases, the actual government issued ID is attached to the record making it easier for our clients to identify the individual. International Data Access Clients have multiple options to gain access to our international data. We maintain a web portal for transactional access (Global-Locate), batch services for large file runs. These are a sampling of the data fields available with Aristotle's premium enhancements. Be sure to contact Aristotle Data for more information on specific availabilities. Premium Enhancement Field Data Type SIZE OF DWELLING UNIT Number LENGTH RES Number YEAR BUILD Year HOME PURCHASE PRICE Money HOME PURCHASE DATE Date HOUSE SALE AMOUNT Money EST CUR HOME VAL Money HOME HEAT INDICATOR Yes/No POOL INDICATOR Yes/No FIREPLACE Yes/No AIR CONDITIONING Yes/No HOME BUSINESS Yes/No CREDIT CARD Yes/No CREDIT GOLD CARD Yes/No CREDIT RATING Number PC OWNER Yes/No CHILD AGE 0 3 Yes/No CHILD AGE 4 6 Yes/No CHILD AGE 7 9 Yes/No CHILD AGE 10 12 Yes/No CHILD AGE 13 18 Yes/No BOOK READER Yes/No MERCHANDISE UPSCALE Yes/No MERCHANDISE MALE Yes/No MERCHANDISE FEMALE Yes/No MERCHANDISE CRAFT Yes/No MERCHANDISE GARDENING Yes/No MERCHANDISE BOOK Yes/No MERCHANDISE FOOD Yes/No MERCHANDISE GIFT Yes/No MERCHANDISE GENERAL Yes/No MAGAZINE FAMILY Yes/No MAGAZINE FEMALE Yes/No MAGAZINE MALE Yes/No MAGAZINE RELIGIOUS Yes/No MAGAZINE GARDENING Yes/No MAGAZINE CULINARY Yes/No MAGAZINE HEALTH Yes/No MAGAZINE DO IT YOUR SEL Yes/No MAGAZINE FINANCIAL Yes/No MAGAZINE PHOTO Yes/No MAGAZINE OPPORTUNITY Yes/No GARDENER Yes/No AUTO BUFF Yes/No COOKING Yes/No DECORATING Yes/No DOGS Yes/No CATS Yes/No PET Yes/No TRAVELER Yes/No EXERCISE Yes/No OUTDOOR Yes/No OUTDOOR SPORT Yes/No INVESTMENT Yes/No MORTGAGE LENDER Yes/No MORTGAGE AMOUNT Money MORTGAGE RATE Percentage MORTGAGE RATE TYPE Type MORTGAGE TERM IN MONTHS Number MORTGAGE LOAN TYPE Type MORTGAGE TRANSACTION Type HOME PURCHASE TYPE Type REFINANCE DATE Date REFINANCE AMOUNT Money REFINANCE LENDER Text REFINANCE RATE TYPE Type REFINANCE TERM IN MONTH Number REFINANCE LOAN TYPE Type HUNTING AND FISHING LICENSES Number ESTIMATED AGE Age And maybe add a new field "PLAY'S ONLINE GAMES Yes/No" populated with the info from verifieds _____________________
 Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups |
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Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
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09-20-2007 20:51
And maybe add a new field "PLAY'S ONLINE GAMES Yes/No" populated with the info from verifieds No, that is too less... PLAY'S ONLINE GAMES Yes/No EVERQUEST Yes/No WOW Yes/No SECONDLIFE Yes/No SECONDLIFE-PREMIUM Yes/No SECONDLIFE-LANDOWNER Yes/No SECONDLIFE-BUSINESS Yes/No SECONDLIFE-CREDITCARD Yes/No SECONDLIFE-PAYPAL Yes/No SECONDLIFE-FORUMKARTEL Yes/No SECONFLIFE-TERRORIST Yes/No SECONDLIFE-NAUGHTY-THINGS Yes/No Thats starts to look better...... |
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
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09-20-2007 20:55
I'm sure that they offered LL a bundle for our personal information. If you want to give it to them that is fine but you won't be sharing in the profits.
BTW this has nothing to do with age verification or "trust" no matter what LL has led us to believe. It has to do with corporate greed pretty much. _____________________
"If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intent of doing you good, you should run for your life." - Henry David Thoreau
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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09-20-2007 20:56
I see the motive here are not pure. You are not looking for an answer. If you honestly were, you would know that LL is not going to answer a question here. This is the residents' forum, not the Linden forum. You have placed this here to start rumors.
Being as it would be somewhat easy to get the info about others, but as soon as you do that you will be committing fraud or worse identity theft. Now if someone raises a stink about being underage, it points back to them and the fact they committed fraud to get where they were. It basically is just once step above the click here if you are over 18 route. But that may be all that is needed in the eyes of a court when someone wants to sue. I wish I could remember where I read it, but I know I saw somewhere that said that LL contacted them and is paying them for the service. I think it was some news outlet. _____________________
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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09-20-2007 20:58
One little thing will - LL will be able to escape lawsuits from parents who can't be bothered to watch where their kids are on the internets. This is about the "L" word. Liability. _____________________
 http://slurl.com/secondlife/TheBotanicalGardens/207/30/420/ |
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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09-20-2007 21:04
No, that is too less... PLAY'S ONLINE GAMES Yes/No EVERQUEST Yes/No WOW Yes/No SECONDLIFE Yes/No SECONDLIFE-PREMIUM Yes/No SECONDLIFE-LANDOWNER Yes/No SECONDLIFE-BUSINESS Yes/No SECONDLIFE-CREDITCARD Yes/No SECONDLIFE-PAYPAL Yes/No SECONDLIFE-FORUMKARTEL Yes/No SECONFLIFE-TERRORIST Yes/No SECONDLIFE-NAUGHTY-THINGS Yes/No Thats starts to look better...... And the Karl Rove version looks like: SECONDLIFE-ALTS Yes/No SECONDLIFE-PLAYING-CORRECT-GENDER Yes/No SECONDLIFE--CHEATING-ON-RL-SPOUSE Yes/No SECONDLIFE-BRENDAS-PANTIES Yes/No _____________________
http://slurl.com/secondlife/TheBotanicalGardens/207/30/420/ |
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Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
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09-20-2007 21:12
I see the motive here are not pure. You are not looking for an answer. If you honestly were, you would know that LL is not going to answer a question here. This is the residents' forum, not the Linden forum. You have placed this here to start rumors. Being as it would be somewhat easy to get the info about others, but as soon as you do that you will be committing fraud or worse identity theft. Now if someone raises a stink about being underage, it points back to them and the fact they committed fraud to get where they were. It basically is just once step above the click here if you are over 18 route. But that may be all that is needed in the eyes of a court when someone wants to sue. I wish I could remember where I read it, but I know I saw somewhere that said that LL contacted them and is paying them for the service. I think it was some news outlet. About the first intelligent post on this thread so far. Arostoltle is a business. What they offer is something worth value to someone else.........and because of that they get money for it. They do not offer something to someone else and ask that someone else to let them give them some money to them to take it off their hands. It's a silly (well stupid) idea to think seriously about. Pot stirring........trolling.............whatever. It's not an honest question. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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09-20-2007 21:23
I see the motive here are not pure. You are not looking for an answer. If you honestly were, you would know that LL is not going to answer a question here. This is the residents' forum, not the Linden forum. You have placed this here to start rumors. No I have not. I resent the acusation. If people have been reading my posts on verification over the few months they would know I have NOT been one of those opposing verification. The rumors were already floating around if you had read the other threads you would have seen them. I just felt this potential issue was serious enough that it needed its own thread rather than being burried as a side topic in one of those others. Feel free to look through all the threads I have started on these forums and try to find ones Ive set up for rumor mongering. I seriously doubt you could proove such. I placed the thread here on these forums - Becuase I cant start Blog posts. The fact that the Lindens rarely if ever read their own Dam forums is NOT MY FAULT. |
