Land Taken by Estate Owner - What to do?
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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10-05-2007 16:14
From: Efemera Bisiani Hey there all. I know the backstory to this as Olde is a very good friend of mine (so yes, I might be biased, but I can assure you am capable of viewing situation objectively). I just had to comment on here that I can assure you Olde did nothing in violation of covenant, which I viewed myself the day before Olde put land up for sale. I can certainly understand why many of you think is more to the story as is no rational explanation for owners actions, but without identifying sim owner with all the details (which I'm sure you'd all agree is not good form) is little can be done to persuade anyone of that.
Many many thanks to those of you who have posted supportive and informative comments, even tho sadly the info is that is pretty much nothing can be done.
Could anyone maybe recommend a third party site to post on? Either here or by IM inworld? If you want to 'name and shame' you might try Metaversed or Virtually Blind or SLUniverse or something like that. Trouble in this case is that if things are as you say, it seems the sim owner isn't terribly concerned about bad press. It does sound pretty slam-dunk but speculation is a dangerous thing. * * * * * With regard to no 'up-front' fees in a private sim, here's what happens: 1) You spend serious cash to buy a region. 2) You rent parcels for tier and nothing more. 3) People come in, and rent 1 week or 1 month on as many parcels as they can 4) Then they 'sell' them word of mouth, making a fortune off your work and risk. So it's kinda like randomly distributing your sim purchase cash to total strangers, if your rental parcels are popular enough to be 'sold off' via word of mouth only. I still can't shut down demand even when charging $L 6/meter up front, so I dunno *what* is gonna happen about 10 sims from now when Caledon is finished and the last sim is placed. Whatever it will be, it won't be pretty.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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10-05-2007 16:17
From: Ciaran Laval Fair play to you. I'd reccomend Sarah Nerd and Desmond Shang at the drop of a hat to be honest. I've had no experience of renting or buying from either but they've been around long enough for me to consider them trustworthy. Steve Malfhouz is another whom seems to be popular but I've read less about him.
Anshe must be trustworthy too but strangely I don't see people reccomending Anshe in the way that people reccomend Desmond, Sarah and Steve, maybe it's because Anshe's business is so large that she loses the personal touch?
However Raymond, you're spot on with reccomending people on personal experience, it really is the best method of reccomendation. Thanks for the kind words - and for me, I've got to put a word in for a few myself. Charlene Trudeau, Serra Anansi, Alliez Mysterio. Maybe not as well known, but very worth knowing. I think Serra's running a waiting list with Winterfell too now; I'd have to ask her.
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Incanus Merlin
Not User Serviceable
Join date: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 583
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10-05-2007 16:55
From: Desmond Shang [snip]so I dunno *what* is gonna happen about 10 sims from now when Caledon is finished and the last sim is placed. Whatever it will be, it won't be pretty. Des! Whatever are you going to do when your continent is finished? Lie back in languor... or eye up smaller continents for a subversive takeover? /me starts looking for 5th columnists.... Inc
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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10-05-2007 17:29
From: Incanus Merlin Des!
Whatever are you going to do when your continent is finished? Lie back in languor... or eye up smaller continents for a subversive takeover?
/me starts looking for 5th columnists....
Inc Fear not sir, I consider you an ally-to-be in such future, controversial times. But oooooh yes, I've got some plans. And the whole grid will get to see what happens, but I'm not going to spill quite yet. 
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dzogchen Moody
need Smell feature
Join date: 3 Jan 2007
Posts: 159
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10-05-2007 19:32
Sometimes maybe you just don't fit somewhere properly and you get in trouble. Private SIMs are a risk investment, either u fit in or not. It's a shame how people will just respond to threads like these with lawyer BS because the poor little tenant told half the story.
Blow shit out of proportion what this is.
I'm sorry for my rudeness but I know the landlord in question, and he has been serious and competent with me for all the 7 months I've been with him.
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JessicaNichol Kappler
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2007
Posts: 211
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10-05-2007 19:50
I am sorry for the OP losing their land and it would be nice to know both sides of the story as to why this event happened. What I find most disturbing about this thread and the countless threads like it is the attitude of "you should only buy or rent your land from so and so who gets mentioned here and don't trust anyone else". Whatever happened to doing your homework? There are no doubt tons of ethical sim owners out there, but if their name does not get mentioned in here, they are assumed to be unethical? Why?
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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10-05-2007 20:33
From: dzogchen Moody Sometimes maybe you just don't fit somewhere properly and you get in trouble. Private SIMs are a risk investment, either u fit in or not. It's a shame how people will just respond to threads like these with lawyer BS because the poor little tenant told half the story.
Blow shit out of proportion what this is.
I'm sorry for my rudeness but I know the landlord in question, and he has been serious and competent with me for all the 7 months I've been with him. So what is the other half of the story?
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Caroline Ra
Carpe Iugulum
Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 400
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10-05-2007 23:00
From: Olde Barrymore No, no explanation. 24 hrs after I put land up for sale I got message saying objects returned by parcel owner (Hey! That was supposed to be me.) Some Estate Owners dont allow resale of land, that could be your answer.
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Winter Phoenix
Voyager of Experiences
Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 683
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File an AR
10-05-2007 23:33
not much more recourse than that. If the Lindens are willing to devote a person to investigate your claim, and you are indeed being treated unfairly, then maybe you will be granted restitution. Do I have any faith in that happening whatsoever? HELL NO! But cant hurt to try. Purchasing land from a private offshore owner is only as safe as the reputation of the land seller. The seller is taking on the Lindenlab role of land master. Sure you buy land on the mainland, but ultimately this ownership can be rescinded by the land master, aka lindenlabs, for whatever reason they deem fit. Its fake purchasing, fake ownership, a simulation of a real estate land buying transaction. You never own anything, you merely buy the right to 'sell your right to park in this spot' for a fee. Doing this with LL is usually fairly safe, but doing this same stunt with some dork on the street? The potential for disaster is right there in front of you. Research your seller, ask for references. I feel like I wrote this post already, deja vu? No, I think I actually did. Next time Im gonna cut and paste. NEXT...
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Phedre Aquitaine
I am the zombie queen
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,157
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10-06-2007 01:31
Desmond Shang (warning, bias, family) Charlene Trudeau Serra Anansi Raymond Figtree Sarah Nerd Wildefire Walcott (And for third-party forums, may I just mention http://secondsurvivor.com ...)
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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10-06-2007 01:36
Since everyone else is doing it...
Alliez Mysterio ftw
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Richard Palace
Registered User
Join date: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 241
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10-06-2007 04:14
From: Olde Barrymore If you own land, have paid monthly payment and are not in violation of covenant, do yo have any recourse if the estate owner simply takes it back? Is there anything you can do besides file abuse report and, if have access, concierge report?
Any advice is much appreciated. Thank you. Buying an estate land and paying tier to estate owner is still RENTING! Unless the estate owner has a proven track record, it's better to buy an estate land with min cost or zero cost if possible. Estate owner can also default on their tier payment and Linden will take away the whole island and your land will also be taken away. |
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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10-06-2007 05:46
From: JessicaNichol Kappler I am sorry for the OP losing their land and it would be nice to know both sides of the story as to why this event happened. What I find most disturbing about this thread and the countless threads like it is the attitude of "you should only buy or rent your land from so and so who gets mentioned here and don't trust anyone else". Whatever happened to doing your homework? There are no doubt tons of ethical sim owners out there, but if their name does not get mentioned in here, they are assumed to be unethical? Why? You are twisting people's intentions around. I, for one, did not say don't trust anyone else. It is a matter of percentages. You have a much lower chance of getting burned by someone with a stellar reputation and longevity than someone without it. No one is saying don't rent from those whose reputations have not been established. Only that with some estate owners, you are minimizing the one disadvantage of estate living by renting from them.
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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10-06-2007 05:48
From: Phedre Aquitaine Desmond Shang (warning, bias, family) Charlene Trudeau Serra Anansi Raymond Figtree Sarah Nerd Wildefire Walcott (And for third-party forums, may I just mention http://secondsurvivor.com ...) If you rent from me, you have to live on the horrid mainland. I only have one sim, Liome, and it's not an estate. But thanks for including me on the list.
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Shirley Marquez
Ethical SLut
Join date: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 788
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10-06-2007 06:39
From: Selinar Ferraris What I don't understand about some estates is why they charge a an initial buy price that is equal or (in some cases) MUCH higher than mainland prices for a similar plot. I know island buys are expensive, I understand the desire to get a quick return on investment, but as an example, I happen to have been looking at estate land for the last week, and there's a wide disparity between two types of land owners.
The first type leads to the problem in this thread. You find a nice 8k lot, you pay $40,000L to 'buy' the land, then pay tier. Should you do something wrong, or the sim owner gets in a grumpy mood, and you can lose it all.
The second type is more reasonable, and I'll use Wildefire Walcott's Desperation Isle as an example. Find a nice 8k plot, buy the land for the cost of one weeks tier. Once the rental box is setup, you pay tier, and you get the purchase price prorated and refunded. Should something happen, you don't lose the upfront purchase price, and it certianly can't be argued that the islands aren't well maintained and very nice looking.
Seems like the second situation would be far more appealing to someone shopping for land, as long as they do the research beforehand. The first estate seller could afford to charge a lower weekly rate, as there would not be a need to repay the original capital cost of buying the island from the weekly rent. (Whether the estate owner DOES charge a lower rate is another question.) So there should be a clear market choice; up-front expense vs. recurring cost. The real problem is the risk of seizure. I would have no problem paying some up-front money for land owned by an estate operator with a well-established reputation. (Disclosure: I DO own some land on the Azure Islands.) I would be very wary of paying up-front for estate land from an unknown operator. |
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JessicaNichol Kappler
Registered User
Join date: 23 May 2007
Posts: 211
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10-06-2007 11:35
From: Raymond Figtree Originally Posted by Phedre Aquitaine
Desmond Shang (warning, bias, family)
Charlene Trudeau
Serra Anansi
Raymond Figtree
Sarah Nerd
Wildefire Walcott
thanks for including me on the list. Sorry who are these people again? The starting line up for the SL all-star hockey team? Because if they are something else I would like to know? I know of a very ethical landowner (who can be seen posting here once in a while) who does not appear on this list. Why not? What is this thread about? The OP tells us that their sim owner stole their land from under their feet for no reason? If this is on the level that is horrible. But we are not being told the whole story here. We don't know who this sim owner is and we don't know their side of the story. For all we know the OP (or anyone else here mentioning names) is an ALT trying to drum up business for themselves. Please, instead of turning this thread into a popularity contest where people say "only buy or rent from so and so", shouldn't this thread be about why did the OP lose their land and what is the sim owner's version of things? |
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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10-06-2007 12:12
From: Olde Barrymore If you own land, have paid monthly payment and are not in violation of covenant, do yo have any recourse if the estate owner simply takes it back? Is there anything you can do besides file abuse report and, if have access, concierge report?
Any advice is much appreciated. Thank you. No recourse at All, His Land, His rules, he can do what he likes, and in the case of your rent, Forget about it, the Lindens will Not get Involved in financial disputes between Players. I Only Live on Land owned by friends, I run into far less trouble that way. Angel. |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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10-06-2007 12:17
From: Richard Palace Buying an estate land and paying tier to estate owner is still RENTING! It's no different on mainland. You're just paying your tier to the most reputable landlord here. You can still lose it. |
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Alliez Mysterio
Registered User
Join date: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 230
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10-06-2007 12:48
From: Olde Barrymore If you own land, have paid monthly payment and are not in violation of covenant, do yo have any recourse if the estate owner simply takes it back? Is there anything you can do besides file abuse report and, if have access, concierge report?
Any advice is much appreciated. Thank you. I can't help but wonder if this was done in error to you. You stated you sold 2 islands a bit ago and that was fine. Have you tried to speak with the Estate owner? I most certainly would. I have 57 Estates currently and only sell land in a few of them. I personally dont see any reason for upfront money to pass hands, but when I lost people because I did not sell, decided to sell in 3 estates. Although the owner of the land stands to make money if they decide to sell, but also should realize they can lose money also. Again, keep your cool and try to contact the Estate owner. Feel free to take a look at the dAlliez estates if you need a place to live. I wish you the very best Alliez Mysterio |
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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10-06-2007 16:01
From: JessicaNichol Kappler Sorry who are these people again? The starting line up for the SL all-star hockey team? Because if they are something else I would like to know? I know of a very ethical landowner (who can be seen posting here once in a while) who does not appear on this list. Why not?
What is this thread about?
The OP tells us that their sim owner stole their land from under their feet for no reason? If this is on the level that is horrible. But we are not being told the whole story here. We don't know who this sim owner is and we don't know their side of the story. For all we know the OP (or anyone else here mentioning names) is an ALT trying to drum up business for themselves. Please, instead of turning this thread into a popularity contest where people say "only buy or rent from so and so", shouldn't this thread be about why did the OP lose their land and what is the sim owner's version of things? The quote in your post #66 is misleading. You put someone else's list under my name. Show me in this thread where anyone said "only buy or rent from so and so". I think it's a good idea to steer people towards estate owners with good reputations. If you disagree, avert your eyes or put me on ignore. I'm never going to stop talking up people who have earned my recommendation, be it estate renters or content creators. And if anyone is ever burned by the estate owners I recommend, I will reimburse them personally. I have that much faith in them. Especially since they are all my alts. 
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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10-06-2007 16:07
From: Raymond Figtree NO one said "only rent from so and so". I think it's a good idea to steer people towards estate owners with good reputations. If you disagree, avert your eyes or put me on ignore. I'm never going to stop talking up people who have earned my recommendation, be it estate renters or content creators.
: Agreed Raymond. I will only reccommend people I have faith in. There's no harm in it, I am not on commission, I say it as I see it. |
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Xi Taurog
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 71
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10-06-2007 16:10
From: Ciaran Laval It's no different on mainland. You're just paying your tier to the most reputable landlord here. You can still lose it. It is a VERY different situation on mainland. Linden Labs is a company, not an individual. An individual who owns an island can die or default on their tier to LL or whatever and you can lose your land that way. It is also much easier for an island owner to change the covenant at the drop of a hat to find reasons to take your land back from you, or to just do it on a whim, because they are not going to be held accountable for doing so. Sure, LL can theoretically change their rules and take your land back any time. But they have a lot more incentive to keep things above board, lest they lose their customer base or face a lawsuit. Individual island owners are much more flexible in the ways they can screw you over with no recourse. Just today, I had an island lot seized back from my "ownership" with 8 hours left on my rent box, with no warning. (I had moved most of my stuff out and was planning to get the rest before my time was up). I am quite certain that LL wouldn't repo my mainland from me before my tier was due, even if it looked like I was moving out. |
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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10-06-2007 16:12
From: Xi Taurog
Just today, I had an island lot seized back from my "ownership" with 8 hours left on my rent box, with no warning. (I had moved most of my stuff out and was planning to get the rest before my time was up). I am quite certain that LL wouldn't repo my mainland from me before my tier was due, even if it looked like I was moving out.
God, I hope it wasn't someone on my recommend list.
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Xi Taurog
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 71
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10-06-2007 16:17
From: Raymond Figtree God, I hope it wasn't someone on my recommend list.  Nope, someone completely unmentioned in this thread! At least I was planning to leave the island anyway so it wasn't any problem for me - I was just pointing out that it's easier for island owners to be fuzzier on the technicalities of 'ownership' of lots than it is for Linden Labs, considering how much we all scream at them when they change anything at all. |
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Steve Mahfouz
Ecstasy Realty
Join date: 1 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,373
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two more lindens from me
10-06-2007 16:26
I think you can feel pretty safe renting from anyone who has multiple sims. It is a safe assumption, I think, that they are operating multiple sims as a small business and not just as a hobby. Therefore, usually, a small businessman or businesswoman wants to keep customers happy and keep getting new business. This is the way I see it, anyway.
There are two factors that keep businesspeople ethical in SL: 1- their own conscience and 2- the fact that they can be called on the carpet at any moment in a third party forum. I try to operate at the level where my intentions cannot be called into question by any reasonable observer. The legal factor, in my opinion, is not really an issue for businesspeople in SL unless a customer loses a substantial amount of real money or suffers a tremendous blow in "prestige". I think small businesspeople actually care MORE about your satisfaction than Linden Lab does, for the simple reason that the loss of ONE customer is far worse to us than to Linden Lab. At times I have felt LL doesn't give a rat's buttocks if they lose a customer. I hope I'm wrong in this perception.
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