Another Go at Ban Lines

I thought perhaps the couple who purchased the plot of land between my parcels never saw what banlines looked like (improbable, but not impossible), so I put them on my ban list, then sent a very nice note to them.

I began by setting common ground as a prior Gorean, etc. then explained the banline situation and told them that I had put them TEMPORARILY on my ban list so they could see what it looked like. I ended the note with something like I strive to be a good neighbor and trust you do as well and offered to meet to talk if there was some problem or issue.

I received a reply today - also very polite and gracious. To my surprise, the person was totally baffled and said he has not owned nor rented land in quite awhile. He said I did not say which sim this was on (because I assumed it was his land and he would know where his land was) so he couldn't check it out. He thanked me for advising him of this and asked for a reply so that together we could figure out what was going on.

Wow!

The reason I assumed it was his land was because the land is owned by a group (no personal name) and then set to only allow group access. He and his girl's names were the only two on the access list, which is why I assumed it was their land.

I keep a daily watch on the land in our sim - what is for sale, how much, when it's purchased, etc. This land was just purchased last week by someone I'll call "M". No banlines were up at the time. Interestingly, that same person showed up briefly on my radar while I was at home, 1000 m in the sky, before blipping off either by my orb or flying out of the area in the 10 secs. I found that a bit strange for someone to be flying that high, but maybe there are high-flying travelers.

I assumed "M" sold the land to the people I contacted because it was at the same time that the land had gone from single ownership to group ownership and the banlines had gone up.

Oh, and I was in error re: a post earlier in the thread - the parcel in question does *not* have the strange hobbit-looking house on it. It is the parcel next to it...a 512 with bare ground.

To be continued....

I guess because I am an old one and remember what Banline USED to look like (they were about 100 times more noticable than now), the silly things really dont bug me at all anymore.

I have used them years ago when circumstances dictated they were necessary for my family comfort. But I really have no use for them now so I just ignore em.

Ok, now I know who owns the ban-lined land next to my parcel. After the nice exchange between me and who I "thought" owned the land due to being on the access list (I'll call him T.) and him saying he hasn't rented nor owned land in a long time and to please let him know more specifics because he was confused, I received this IM today from the land owner who I will call A.:

"Hi Czari I understand you contacted T. about land my partner and I own in (sim). I am not sure why you contacted him when he has nothing to do with ownership of our land. I understand you have issue with our land restrictions on our land. I am sorry they disturb you. However, this is mainland, and as owners of the mainland, we decide what restrictions are placed on our land, just as you do for your own land. I would never dream of imposing my opinion on someone else to dictate how they should manage their land, and certainly hope that isn't what you were attempting to do with T. Our land is group own, and the banlines will remain. Thank you."

Okkkaaaaaaayyyy. Polite enough however:

(1) I contacted T. because that was the only name I saw on the land in the access tab. True, that doesn't mean he owned it, but as I didn't have a clue who did, I thought AT LEAST he would know about the land. Guess he does now.

(2) My note to T. was very polite and in no way was trying to "dictate how they should manage their land" - was just trying the neighborly approach. I spent the first paragraph welcoming him to the neighborhood.

So...guess who gets to be the first person on my land ban list?

Kinda saw this coming, as soon as it was clear "T" wasn't really running the group that owned the land. I'll bet that much was lost--and added--in translation between T and the actual land owner.

But you, too, have some background in the ways of that opposite planet... the one where the churchmouse-poor Ubar "rules" at the pleasure of the sim-owning kajira. How that translates to a Mainland parcel is anybody's guess, but I'll bet it involves intrigue--and not a little Paga.

I think ban lines are so much fun. I have one neighbor who put them up because he was living cheek by jowl to a bunch of failed rentals that are now all banlined. Gee, if you don't want neighbors why live in this corner of Harltey.

"Neighbor" #2 is on the other side of some open land that is for sale. He has nearly blocked what access I have to the road. Most of Gaeta is far from the road. Banlines, security orbs, and obstructive builds (otherwise known asthe F-you school of building) destroy walkability. Walkability encourages community. It helps residents find businesses. It helps them meet neighbors. It is free recreation.

I consider all security apparatus toys. Ban lines are a trampoline. "Neighbor" #2, gave me lots of fun on Friday when I flew over his property and bounced on his ban line roof. I've thought about buying a trampoline for my own land. Now "Neighbor" #2 has provided one free of charge. And I all ready photographed myself bouncing on the ban lines.

Security orbs offer more of a challenge. Back a few months ago, all I had to do was sit on the ground or a chair (Usually I found one.) This put the security orb out of business. I even built a bench while seated on orbed property. This "Neighbor" has since moved on but it was fun to start my build on his land. I took the bench with me and finished it elsewhere. Without the orb, I just would have walked through his land.

Now the orbs can't be foiled by classic butt down tactics. Usually, though they have some time built in. Teleport home orbs are not much fun, but if they have enough time lag, I can usually teleport to a safe spot, return, and start the clock running again. Variations of this game include using a flight feather and parachute to go sailing over the orbed property and then back to the safe locale and then returning for another sail.

An easier orb to outwit is the one that meerly ejects you to a neighboring parcel. Just come back inside and then either fly or run as far into the property as you can. I sometimes take a snapshot of myself on the orb owner's property.

The irony is I wouldn't do much more than cross these parcels if they did not have these attractive toys.

And most of the time (99% or more) there's no owner in sight so I'm not disturbing any one's privacy.

By the way privacy does not exist on SL. Somewhere on Linden's computers are probably records of all your transactions and a lot more. If you feel you need invisible islands or all kinds of orbs to protect your nefarious acts, you probably need at a minimum Unix server access and an .htacces file or better yet email sent with PGP encryption or other serious privacy protecting software.

And yes I could get banned from assorted parcels. Possibly, I could get ARed. I think banning is more likely, and there is lots of other land with toys on it. If I really got in big trouble, I'd lose $82.00 US, well under the cost of a speeding ticket in many jurisdictions.

Try this polite option that was offerred to me once as a new land owner....

Buy them a Security Orb as a gift and send a note explaining why and the benefits...i.e. set it so neighbours can fly over above a certain hieght maybe.
Good luck

There's an even politer option, a low or phantom fence or hedge preferably with gates. This let's those entering your land, know they have entered an area that belongs to someone. Likewise, why not just put up a sign that says "Private Residence?" I've seen both these solutions used in real life.

And I've used a low fence in real life to keep beer cans and cigarette butts out of a garden I had in the front of a house. A stake trellis another summer worked the same magic. A simple property marker encourages polite behavior of those passing by and passing through.

In SL, three quarters of my land is below grade forming a natural boundary and the open end of my property has a gourd trellis and two gates. It's also no-rezz, no-script.

Basically you are telling people what to do with their land that they spent money on when
whenever the issue comes up about the banlines.
Banlines are annoying to cross but they are people's right to do and basically all of you
are dictating how you think it shouldn't be right whenever a topic like this comes up.
And basically you're tell people what they can or cannot do with their land that they PAID
for.
If you want it to change you should deal with Linden Labs instead of banning people,etc.
Personally I think a better option would be to increase security and just make the lot totally
vanish with some type of mutual visual muting and be uncrossable but of course this probably isn't going to be heard. I vote for something like that but I won't vote
to tell people what to do with they can do with their land even if it bothers me.
Anyway I know its waste of words because not one of you will read or even pay attention
to anything except your need to ban banlines.
People have reasons for them, but truthfully banlines aren't 100 percent effective
and security orbs cause problems and cost more money that should already be a part
of the land security options in first place.
Majority of the residents don't do things out of politeness most of time because it is all about them.
If they were polite to each other mainland would be different place full of neighborhood
communities working together and we all know that ain't going to happen cause their
no profit in politeness, mainland is just for flipping and building whatever you want.
PG lot for some means just hide your dungeon equipment in a black box in the sky.

I really think someday something like this will happen; a relevant jira (by Nicholaz) is http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1017.

I don't suppose that deals with all the problems folks have with banlines, nor the reasons folks feel the need to use banlines, but it would be a valuable advance for a lot of other good reasons.
I wonder if there exists a free or free-open-source security orb. If not, I wonder if one would be of value. I tinkered with one for my own use (an exceedingly gentle one), so I know the basic script isn't particularly complex, but (as with most such things) there's a huge variety of possible options users might want, and just providing a comprehensible way to select among them is a challenge.
I guess my Mainland experience has been pretty lucky. Other than the microparcel plague, the majority of my neighbors have been great--and the ones who were jerks eventually moved on. But it's something I never thought about, whether the existence of private Estates causes the Mainland to attract a disproportionate population of folks who could never get along on an Estate. Hmmm.

There is a lot of stuff especially the scripted orbs that some of us don't know
how to use and there is nothing more annoying like spending money on no copy security or scripted device and not being able to figure out how to use it.
Or if you're already on low fps system having to deal with more impact on your
computer.
People stay in mainland for freedom and because for 72 dollars year they get things
they wouldn't get from Estate and the security of not losing their lot when the Estate owner decides they can't afford to have them their any more but it also means there is lot of other people who hang out on mainland often to do whatever, sometimes
this means causing problems for those whose land is open to everyone.
Even with banlines it doesn't keep them out. Not everyone wants to be social or
be the unofficial welcome area for whomever decides they want to stop by and be welcomed.
When you first rezz or go explore it is always mainland, this also attracts
those who are out to cause problems too.
There really needs a better way to control access then paying for
someone to give you a script that you may or may not know how to use
properly.
Linden Labs really needs to do more to be better stewards of mainland.
Not just the areas that are selling for 50k or up for 512m lot.
I don't want to pay additional money unless I choose to some vacation spot on a Estate of my choosing even then it seems wasteful when I am already paying Linden Labs already for land.
Estates often means I can't build or have the space I want, I can't fly or control how I want my land to look.
Estate land there is no guarantees or stability in same ways as if you get mainland.
A whole lot of us aren't interested in giving or putting out more money , especially if we are premium already or don't trust estate owners.
Yet LL doesn't always do very good job dealing with mainland either.
Problem is they probably won't or can't fix the issues, they just don't have time or don't see it profitable for them to enforce certain things or deal with all the complaints
if everyone complained about every issue in mainland.
Some of us don't want to complain and file abuse reports on every offense
we just want to be left alone and not have strangers wondering around
on our lots and sleeping in our beds like Goldilocks and the three bears.
I have had people come and harrass people in my land group.
Block doorways, refuse to move, intentionally act like jerks.
And sometimes banlines don't even help with that.
Yet if I spent money for security orb it would only work up certain distance
or possibly cross the property line and effect the neighbors.
On 1/4 sim with several levels I would need numerous security orbs to manage.
On 1024m lot it may cross over to neighbor lot because I don't know how to set it
right.
Not counting the lag it would cause when I am there for the script running.

I can find the voting option any more in jira or I would have voted
for visual muting
For some reason they aren't allowing everyone to vote even when they are signed in
any more or they hide the voting tool.

Interestingly, A. is a Gorean Free Woman with a Free Companion but, contrary to Gorean "conventions" she's the one doing the talking. They have both been on SL since 2005 and are in many well-known Gorean groups. They have now erected a nice little non-Gorean home, so perhaps it's their private retreat from the drama some Gorean sims can engender.

I thought perhaps I would engage her as a former "fellow" Gorean Free Woman but, meh....will just continue my life happily on my sim. I own a lot more land so they'll be viewing more banlines than i will.

I hate doing a "tit-for-tat" thing...but considering the tone of her correspondence, decided she can have the same view we do.

That was sort of my intention with my first correspondence with T. but now that the land owner, A., has stepped in her, albeit politely worded correspondence was in short, "Tough - my property, I'll do with it what I want."

So much for trying to be a good neighbor. Worth a try at least.

Try flying a hot air balloon and THEN tell me how nice security orbs are.

I call them abuse orbs.

Now that we can build at 4000 meters, let's move the ban-line zone up there so nobody has to see them except other people using them.

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-2390

In the meantime, IM me in world and I'll give you my "electric fence" signs to put around their ban lines.

I hear you, FD, and agree. The sim I live on is a very peaceful water sim where the residents go boating and are neighborly and have not seen banlines for a long, long time. While I don't personally care for them, I'm not on a personal crusade against them. I didn't even notice this one until I flattened against it going from one of my parcels to the other.

My approach was trying the "good neighbor policy" and see if at least the new neighbors next to my parcel and I could come to a mutual agreement since we own parcels next to one another. (Mine actually surrounds theirs.) The new owner has stated her view, I respect it, she can now respect my right to ban her from my property in the same manner.



That wasn't my intention at all - it was a suggestion in the hopes of maintaining the friendly sim in which I live.



I'm reading your post, FD, and as I said, agree with you in theory. I have no vendetta against banlines in general, but they can be a nuisance and an eyesore for other people who are *also* paying to own land in the same sim. Again, I was hoping that as neighbors we could work something out.



I have never lived on the ground, so my security orb is 1000m in the sky. It does not detract from people strolling through the neighborhood (or boating through on my sim...lol) and if set properly only affects people that come very close to our home. I realize there is no such thing as true privacy in SL, but as you said "people have reasons for them" and I've had a few experiences that make me feel better with an orb up high. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, FD.

As for lag, I don't know if it depends on the sim, or the type of orb, etc. but we have never experienced lag with our orb.



I'm not sure if a "majority" of residents are impolite...just that the jerks make more noise and seem like a larger group than they probably are. Polite people are generally going about their business. I am all for neighborhood communities (which is why I enjoy visiting Caledon) and once again, I was making an attempt at just that. If you had seen my note you would see I wasn't demanding anyone remove their banlines or anything of the nature.

All that being said...I read all your posts in any thread I read and appreciate your insight. But no group of people agree on everything all the time.

My mainland living has been very pleasurable and uneventful as well - I think part of that has to do with living in the sky. Interesting point on your theory of people living on mainland who couldn't get along on an Estate.

My adventures on the ground are because I purchased my property to put my shop there. If any unpleasantness occurs (and I don't consider this current situation any big deal), I'll just take my store up into the sky as well.

I do own a hot air balloon, and go on dragon rides and fly using our Rendezvous couples vehicle quite often. We encounter security orbs, but generally manage to get out of their range better than hitting ban lines (which may not extend that high but one hits an invisible wall saying no permission to enter the property).

I'm not saying orbs are perfect, but between banlines and orbs, I personally prefer orbs. Different strokes




LOL, thanks Argent. I doubt I'll need those as my intention is not to start escalation. Having never experienced banlines close to my property (again from mostly living in the sky) I was just surprised to run into one on my way from one of my parcels to another and *thought* I'd try to send a polite note before just banning them in return.

No matter what people say here, visible ban lines suck, and are a major griefer tool (sanctioned by LL). Essentially when you put them up, you are telling your neighbor to get f---ed.

I am a sailor and pilot (in SL of course), and I will tell you that the argument about needing to see them is bogus. By the time you see them, it is already too late.

There is no good reason that the world needs to be cordoned off by ugly red tape.

That's okay Czari if we disagree. I still like you.
I am not using banlines at the moment.
Yeah I have noticed the annoying jerks for some reason are more obvious but
luckily they don't stick around too long.
Nice Residents though are always nice when they become a part of your life too....
I personally would like to see more people coming together and creating mainland communities with their own individual 512m to 1024m lots.

In a hot air balloon? You must have one with an emergency jet pack. It often takes more than the 6 to 10 seconds they give you to figure out what direction to go, and even then I can't always get away in my glider... let alone a balloon that only moves a few meters per second and takes several seconds to reverse course (and even THAT makes it unreasonably unrealistic for someone who's done RL ballooning).

Ban lines, unless they're on a sim edge, just stop you. They're nasty horrible things, yes, but nowhere near the dead evil of abuse orbs.

Abuse orbs have no limits on their behavior. Many of them have no delay at all, they unseat and eject you without warning. And even if one has been deliberately placed at the end of an airstrip it's not considered reportable abuse. I had a neighbor who had one that used a physics attack to orbit you, so it worked across parcel boundaries, and it triggered when I was over my land, and even THAT wasn't considered against the TOS because it stayed there after I sent in an AR. I ended up selling that lot to the guy who lived on the other side, I hope he had more luck.

The bottom line for me is there IS no privacy in SL, and anything you do to try and create it causes other people unending hassles and doesn't accomplish the goal. LL needs to get rid of ban lines, make "security orbs" against the TOS, and instead give us some REAL privacy tools.
Banning in return *is* escalation, and it's more of an escalation than putting up a few electric fence signs.

I think a more effective way to get the privacy alot of users seem to be wanting would be for LL to create a property of editing prims that would determine whether the prim is considered phantom in regards to the camera object or if it blocks the camera from entering. The ban lines should only become visible when you collide with them.

I like you too, FD

It would be nice if likeminded people all lived in the same sim ...that would be fun! And no banlines or orbs ever needed.

Now that sounds like an idea for a new product

Seriously, though, we're probably talking about different types of products. Although mine looks like a hot air balloon, it moves via the arrow keys and if I need to move it quickly, I just do it like a prim - highlight/edit, move out of the way.

Now the Rendezvous and when I go dragon riding are other issues...the most problems we generally have are sim crossings...those can be nasty and we've ended up with me sitting on a dragon saddle in mid-air with no dragon - the dragon (my partner in his dragon AV thrown to the other sim) and often just tping someplace and starting over is our only option.

Done And since my land surrounds their's...they'll be seeing a lot more banlines than I will.

Headed over to vote on this jira and found out I've already voted on it. This would be a great idea, I think.