A Word from Blue Linden

I have been chatting with Blue in email for the past few days, following a conversation in Dublin on St. Patty's regarding the merge of the Teen and Main Grids.

This morning he wrote to say that he would be posting to "the list" (I think he means the forums, somewhere) in the next few days to state he can make himself available inworld to chat about the subject if people are interested.

He also said I could quote him thusly:

"Lindens have been saying for years that we'd like to someday find a way for teens to more broadly participate in SL, but we currently have no plans to do so."

For those who don't know, Blue used to run the TG and has some fairly strong feelings on the matter. He's has made that statement to me several times before, but I wanted something definitive I could put in here. For what it is, there you go.

They have no plans to do so, they won't "make any specific 'this is what's coming next and that's where you can expect it,' " as Philip says in the same interview.

But it IS what they as a company want, if Blue likes it or not. Haven't we learned that the opinions of a single LL employee are not necessarily the positions of LL as a corporate entity?

There probably wont be a big announcement about the closing of the Teen Grid until LL sees what sort of effect the opening of the Adult Content Contient has on the overall cleansing of the rest of the SL grid.

Honestly tho, if your ultimate plan is to "make the overall experience appropriately safe and controlled for everybody." what need will there be for a Teen Grid?

Is there a little tinge of unintended irony in Philip saying "We need to stop creating isolated areas that are age specific" ? ....yeah.

Blue does like the idea of a merged grid. We chatted for half an hour about it in Dublin, and we've talked a little bit about it since. He's stated it's what he would like to see, but "there are no plans".

Whether that means "there will not BE any plans" is another matter entirely. I personally don't believe it's viable, as Utopian as it sounds. There will be adults that will use the environment for nefarious purposes, as well as teens. That's reality. I would have to be convinced that both age groups would have ample protections, and I just don't have any idea how LL could carry that out beyond what's available in server logs.

"We currently have no plans to do (whatever)" is well known political doublespeak which always translates as, "Yes that IS what we actually intend to do, regardless of what people feel about the matter. However, we know this is a Hot Potato and are therefore keeping our plans under wraps until the last minute."

--
Aes

"Nein. We haff no planz to invade Poland. "

But seriously, I get Phil's dream, and it is a laudable one...IF....the necessary safeguards can be worked out and consistency enforced. Have an educational area where all are welcome, a commerce area as well, even residential areas, all where people of all ages can coexist. But also have an adults only area where all types of places can be setup, not just an XXX rated continent, but M or PG areas for people who just don't want to associate withe the kids, or wish to only in certain situations. And have clear guidelines and enforce them.

Can LL do this? personally I don't think so. They have done a great job of creating SL, but I think managing it effectively is beyond their capabilities. Maybe that needs to be outsourced, I dunno.

It does indeed seem like it would be an impossibly complicated task to carry out......

It's easy to understand the dilemma and the risks. Of course....there's probably a good handful of teens running around the adult grid anyway cause lets face it.....getting an account isn't that complicated.....and in some cases.....mom & dad have encouraged it.

I have my own personal dilemma surrounding the teen issue because I have a 15yo nephew who is interested in SL. Now this kid already spends a LOT of time on the computer.....he plays umpteen million games of all variety (including facing off with his dad in GTA, my brother lol) GTA isn't exactly a warm & fuzzy childs game. LOL

But.....my issue is more frustration with the complexity of getting him in-world to see his grandmother's gallery. My brother got in SL and was so so excited by what I did....and the first thing he wanted me to do was contact my nephew. (he felt coming from me it would mean more cause I'm his fave aunt lol) My nephew never got a chance to know my mom really......too many miles betwen them and the older he got, the worse her MS got so it just never happened. But he is also well aware of the artist streek in our family and knows my mom painted.....knows his dad gets his gift from her......but he's only ever seen a handful of her work.

My brother really really wants his son to be able to come into SL to see the gallery and get a better understanding of what our mom was all about. I think it makes sense and I'd love for him to see it........ but I worry too. It's not like he's a niave kid by any means....in fact he's pretty mature & intelligent and has a very good relationship with my brother. But it doesn't change the fact that he could be exposed to thing's we'd just rather not have him deal with just yet. (not that it would shock the kid... he's probably seen as much as we have on myspace alone lol) But....it's a dilemma..... as a family, we are protective and very close.... but also pretty liberal. My brother doesn't try to shelter his son.....he's honest and open with him, and wants very much for him to have informed & objective views on the world around him. SL could be a great tool.... but as yet, it's a complicated one to wield.

I have mixed feelings towards kids being in SL.

I want to see SL totally opened up so anybody can enter, even without needing registration. Yet at the same time I'm aware that kids don't contribute anything to the SL experience. In general they're just not very creative - in prim or conversation. Their interests are often limited to things like guns and spaceships. The only people that enjoy their company are other kids and pedophiles. They also don't get a lot of pocket money.

Internet kids can be incredibly apathetic and demorilazing. Adults will do anything to avoid them. That means staying away from Second Life if they have to.

But you can't open up SL and not have kids enter.

Umm... It's a dilema..

Can we all stop having chidren?

Of course, one could argue that LL has no "plans" to migrate adult content off the Mainland and to the XXX continent. Certainly although they intend to do it, they don't have a clue HOW they will do it. Hence, no plans...

I predict they will merge the teen grid eventualy in just as haphazzard and badly implemented a way as they are trying right now to move Adult Content off the mainland. With no forethought, no plan - just "Make it so!", and forcibly drive the lemmings rushing towards the sea cliffs.

Im not so sure id paint all kids with the same brush although yes ofcourse its unlikely your going to want to socialise with them.
However one thing that interests me around this is talent is talent and i think anyone with it starting SL in their early teens or even younger who also begins to learn how to build/texture/script etc will become a very formiddable content creator when they mature if not before and i think that bodes well for the long term future of SL. I myself have already picked up numerous skills i doubt i ever would without SL so the implications for this for young people could be excellent.
I mean we all know kids are like sponges they will simply soak all the information up and 2nd life will be like 2nd nature to them.

I have already seen how SL seems to encourage almost everyone who comes into contact with it to do something creative so i feel this is a positive aspect for young people to tap into it is certainly a far more worthwhile and fullfilling pursuit than grinding on an MMORPG for example.
On merging in particular i think that many of them will see a lot more quality content and exciting uses of SL on the main grid than the teen so this will help enthuse them and give them something more to aim for as well as the possibility of interacting and learning from experienced mature residents.

What the safest and best way to go about this may be i really cant say for sure however i do feel that "classification" of avatars may be a good idea.
To further clarify you dont just let anyone teach your kids you have trained professionals who have been checked up on.

I do feel this could apply to other areas of SL too ie responsability and freedom comes at a price and i feel that if you wish to take part in any activity in SL that is considered a position of trust then you should be required to be far more transparent about who you are in real life and your own personal history etc I would even suggest this for anyone wishing to sell content (it may help lower some of the nasty content theft issues etc) or anybody else at all who has social / economic responsability to SL society as a whole.

I dont really feel this would impinge on peoples freedoms and im not suggesting that this information should be available to just anybody and in an ideal world we could just trust everyone etc but thats not the case and if we really want to see SL grow and become "legit" if you like maybe steps along these lines are neccessary.
I know i for one have nothing to hide and will be happy to provide info to a trusted party if it meant that those stealing content from me also had to if they wished to then sell it.
Sorry if ive drifted off topic here but i hope you can see the relation between the 2 i guess it boils down to responsability = transparency = consequences

It's going to be pretty tough to convince a lot of people that the new adult content policy is not part of such a plan.

I politely disagree. I think you are projecting your image of a kid, and manifesting the image into all kids- If that didn't make sense, I mean that I feel that you are placing a stereotype on (all) kids. I don't believe in skepticism*;however, in this case I don't think it is possible to assess the thought process of someone based purely on their age -> here are some facts to keep in mind
1) I have never met him or her
2) I only know that they are between the ages of 13 and 18
3) He or she could be male or female
4) He or she could have an IQ of over 170 (doesn't mean much, but I doubt they would be talking about spaceships with guns if they have an IQ of over 170)
__
I mean. You could have the ability to do it, but do you have the ability to do it correctly? I don't... This is by NO MEANS a personal attack. I just think there are some very creative teens out there who you are not giving any credit to. I know kids (8th graders in particular) who have taken calculus. I know one kid who finished high school freshman year- I just feel by telling the world what they are thinking (when you may or may not know what they are in fact thinking) you are insulting them. I doubt that if I was transferred to the teen's grid for a day I would be attacked by flying spaceships with guns where ever I went. It doesn't seem plausible at all. I know that I personally was not thinking like that even at age 13. I was coding in C++ at age thirteen. (Admittedly, I was not doing much, but I was much more interested in code than in playing with guns.)



*The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general.

hmmm... i'm not sure about that...

I would have to disagree with you here Wandered. My son who is 16 cant stand guns or sci fi, is fantastic at textural work , is very artistic can creative and thinks SLs graphics are 2nd rate but ok for what it is. He has no interest in joining SL his interests when he is on his comp is working in graphic programs.
From my view I came to SL to be with adults, I was a paid member early on paying the full amount which when converted to my currency is not cheap. I have land which again when concerted is not cheap. I have 2 teens i live with I am associated with teens in RL a fair amount with groups I am involved with, and enjoy their company BUT when i come to SL i dont want to have to watch what i say because there may be someone not just a teen who may be offended by me using a naughty word so i stay in mature areas where I assume mature ppl are.
I have ran into teens in SL and all but one asked me about sex or were trying to get me to teach them how to have sex the other was more into live shows and was a great singer/songwriter.
If you want to have a "family" area then why not open part of the teen grid as i dont see there being a huge amount of adults wanting to socialize with teens.

Meh. I was trying to refer to some history class I took. I think it may have come off a little harsher than intended; however, I knew what I wanted to say, so I just looked up a definition and used it.

http://www.answers.com/topic/skepticism

Now. I understand that you don't believe that. I don't either. I do feel it applies in this case though. >.>
Oh! The irony >.>

You have to wonder if they've considered that solution.

/me whips off Brenda's pants and waves them in salute.

(You didn't think I'd wave my own, did you?)

Hey ..where'd my pants go?

1 person agreed

Well sounds like you and Blue had a nice chat, I'm sure individual Lindens are nice as people and all of that good stuff.

I just do not see any way to keep kids safe once they are in SL. All it takes, is someone sidling up to them somewhere in happy fluffy PG land, and IMing them or asking them back to their home. Pedos groom kids *subtly*, it's happened already all over the 'net.

The pedos wouldn't be hanging out in Sodom anyway they'd be going where the kids go. Separate 'kid grid' with vetted adults only - enlarge and improve it sure - is the safer option.

I do hope they'd at least keep the current teen grid open for those families who do not want their kids anywhere near a global village.

Who Nemo will be swimming with in that big blue ocean is cause for pause.



I know kids are bored in the teen grid but why not just improve what exists there? Teen boredom is a perennial, an eternal. Everyone was a teen once. But I didn't expect to go hang out in adult places, to relieve my own boredom (even though I did hang out with people twice my age and more, thanks to community theater, so I fully appreciate your point of virtual creations, as a creative or learning resource for teens). I was lucky I had good family and the big difference is these adults were in person and trustworthy. Being an in person community, there were social consequences which do not exist in cyberland.

There is no good reason to bring kids into an adult world in order to have them create, though. If that opportunity hadn't existed, I could've stuck strictly to kids-only environments where the only grownup was the teacher.



See above; real life and cyber life have differences, and safety is one. Furthermore you are asking all of SL population to give up their anonymity because 'teens are bored.'



A position of trust? Define that. Like, selling adult products?

Does this mean consumers or renters will now have protections too? Not really.

The way this is worded 'required to be far more transparent' gives a chill - and because of what? Some 'bored teens'.

All that said, I can identify with creative teens or business minded teens who want to get out there and try the 'real world' - another eternal theme since the dawn of man. (Again we were all teens once and know what it feels like. Doesn't mean waiting a few more years to mix with adults is a bad thing, RL or SL, though.) A parent wouldn't let the kids out of the house to navigate on their own in RL before 18, and they shouldn't be wandering SL either, 'stamped age verified usda approved' adults or not. Not every baddie will wear a stamp in either world, which is why parental guidance is a must.



Oh really? Why not? For instance inviting friends to your private island who are not age verified but whose rez date predates teen invasion day will be impossible. (My point - rez dates before that day should be grandfathered in at the least. Anyone in SL now is legally required to be over 18.)



Once it's out there it's out there. No getting it back. And databases get hacked or end up other places often.



Well, a lot of people feel SL is already big, already 'grown' and already 'legit'. The other side of it has been exaggerated by the press, that's all. Nothing a good PR campaign couldn't fix. (Heck, a lot of creative people already in SL could probably help there.)

Why necessary? So far the argument has been to allow teens into SL, it honestly feels as if the older people are being taken for granted, what they spend is funding a tomorrowland for teens who are the 'real' future market, as they grow and begin to spend more themselves. So, while it may feel good to be given this golden ticket to wonkaland it isn't so good a feeling if you are the one being shunted out the back door.



Why do people who stand to gain from this (or so it seems to them now) keep saying they "have nothing to hide"? Does that make it right to do this to others who don't wish it? Also it casts a shadow on anyone else, as "having something to hide." People go along with an authority figure because they do not wish to seem different, or that they have a hidden reason to object. I won't draw examples from history but it isn't always for everyone else's good, and "this doesn't affect meee, I'm good, and I have nothing to hide, stamp my hand" seems to miss the point. Unless "me" is the only thing that matters, here. What about those being sent to the other line?

This seems an "us vs. them" position. "Why would you object unless you have something to hide" etc. But yes some adults do not wish their laundry flapping in the wind. That, too, is normal, and the downward glance heretofore paying citizens are expected to adopt as they slink off to perv island is galling.

You also seem to miss that the current residential population are creative *adults* - who will be impacted. They have been learning, creating, improving skills, and making SL what it is now. Why is it not as valuable as what teens might contribute? Why, other than possibly the above (longer-term market, in cold parlance, more decades of life left in them to market to) are teens 'superior' that it should be turned upside down to accommodate them?

Stealing content? Didn't follow that part.



Well, 'responsible' people have attracted millions into SL while running businesses and putting money back into the SL economy, that 'transparency' notion still seems self serving though. Tell me why you feel it is fair to demand others abase themself so you can get what you want, please?

From my view why did not Blue Linden post this himself I have never been a fan of 2nd hand info.


SL is made up largely from the talent and skills of the members LL give us the tools we create LL gets the glory.
The teens are bored ( when my teens say that to me i tell them to go clean their rooms they soon stop being bored) Well how about they are given the tools and they create a Teen SL they can enjoy more suited to their needs ? I would put money on them when they come to the adult grid also being bored in time cause you need money to make things in SL.

WW, I agree, and from what I read, teens are already creating and running their own businesses in the teen grid, but they complain (blog) that it is neglected and they need more tools.

Some also blog that they wish the larger market regular SL offers. To that I'd say, sell on SLX. Let teens post what they make there, do not let them see the adult content (I think that's already separated on SLX anyway?) but let adults see and buy theirs.

really?
what do you need the money for (to make something in SL) which part costs?

Let's see... rezzing prims costs nothing... plenty of free and decent quality textures out there to texture the prim, costs nothing, writing a script for the prim costs nothing
setting the item for sale, costs nothing..
advertising it in your picks, costs nothing

someone checks your profile, sees the picks of the items for sale, wants to see it, you show them, costs nothing

they want to buy it, you sell it, costs you nothing
you just made some lindens

so.. again
why or what costs money to make things in SL?

(of course if you want to upload sculpties, textures, sounds, and/or animations, then yeah those will cost, but it doesn't cost to make something in SL, it costs to upload something to SL, and you do not need to upload something to SL to make something, unless that something you are making requires the upload, and you can go pick money from a tree to cover an upload fee)

True, and, unlike RL, the millionth product sold costs zero more than the first...no production costs. Unless of course one counts electricity and internet connection, etc. Obviously those on the other side of the digital divide are already left out. But cost within SL itself not really. Those who can't afford a storefront can sell on SLX or does that cost?

I feel your jumping to a few too many conclusions here.

Ill try be more concise and clear this time.

First of all at no point did i suggest that everyone should do this and also i would like to highlight to you im merely suggesting i i make no claims to know what the best practices would be to make any of this viable when you get to the level of details however this whole issue is likely years down the line so details really are moot at this stage.

What i am suggesting is that if you wish to take part in any activity where there is trust involved and that >could< be anything from selling content to tutoring children you have nevet met in RL ie other than thier own teachers then yes i feel it would be a good step that you are willing to be more transparent.
I do however share your concerns about giving out personal details but then wether you like it or not this is exactly how the world works no? SL exists within RL so why should it be any different?

Again as i already said in an ideal world everyone would act responsably and with respect for others but we really dont live in an ideal world and the common practice is that anyone wishing to trade, police, teach, counsel to name but a few simply have to be transparent about who they are where they live and often what their history is.

So giving out your details to LL or whomever what are the real major concerns here? spam mail? dont you think that the advantages this kind of transparency would bring far outweigh the small possibility of this occuring? I mean right now SL works on trust basically you have to trust that when you pay for something that your going to recieve it because the fact of the matter is there is little or no consequences against the person taking your money if you dont. Forgive me if im often returning to merchant / trade as an example but that the area i personally am most familair with i do feel the same principals can be applied though.

Trying to read over what youve put forth and reply to specific points...

Again i do feel you have jumped to many conclusions i at no point suggested that the adults on the grid are somehow "not as valuable as what teens might contribute" in fact quite the opposite i think what i suggested is that what we as adults have to offer is more valuable and thats why it might be a good thing if some of the more keen younger residents of SL had access to these skills either via tutoring or as simple as being inspired by it. Again how the best way to do this may be i dont know for sure im only suggesting.

So your example of youth theatre and the positive experience you had there is a perfect one really. You said these people were "trustworthy" and thats the crux of my whole point if you can have a positive and enriching experience in the real world by learning from trusted adults who i would suggest more than likely have had their details taken down historys checked then why would it be a bad thing to have the same implemented within the virtual world. I would also add that "in person" the potential risks are far greater than online.

So yes my whole point is that without transparency how can you trust anybody really? if they are able to hide who they are where they live then i completely agree they should not be allowed anywhere near a child or in my opinion even be trusted to trade.

Now i dont want to come across as some kind of paranoid conservative because thats far from the truth but you say SL is legit and grown up i disagree i think some of it is most definately either there or getting there but that for many people to really take SL seriously there simply has to be more protection in place because right now we are most definately still in wild west mode.

"Stealing content? Didn't follow that part."

Yes stealing content i and many of my friends regularly have to deal with this problem and trust me its like chasing shadows ...why? Well mainly because any old tom dick or harry can come along with a copybot take your creations from you and start selling them the next day and the only consequences they face is a possible account ban. So whats really in place to protect anybody taking SL seriously enough to put the kind of time and effort in required to push things forward? Right now its none because there are simply no consequences because people can hide who they are where they live etc.

Ok well i hope ive made myself clearer but all i really wanted to say was responsability comes at a price now maybe your idea of SL and mine are different thats inevatable but i feel the benefits of being more transparent far outweigh the negatives and again ill be clear here im suggesting an opt in scheme not a mandatory one. Using "ive got nothing to hide" i will admit may be the wrong words to have chosen and i do agree on your point about saying this can make it seem like those who wish not to do have soemthing to hide when it may simply be they wish to maintain a level of privacy so point taken there.

So you have picked my post apart what's your suggestion then and the reasoning behind it?

EDIT> Ok so i failed at being more concise but i hope i was more clear!