Discrimination based on SL age?

(Taken from a different thread, name withheld as I didn't ask permission to use the quote)

I'm not saying I'm an amazing builder.. but understanding the basics, and working with the in-world tools till my arms fall off has taught me just as much as the forums and videos. I don't know every trick, and never will, but in my opinion, for one so young, I'm quite accomplished. In my builds, I never allow any gaps, I mesh the textures(almost) perfectly, and I do know some prim saving techniques (Such as the hollow and cut for two walls in one, or for chair/table legs, etc.), as well as am able to (generally) think on my feet...

I'm discriminated against because I'm a newer person... why is that such a limitation? I've been here for a month and a half now, and I've built something or worked on something every day of my Life in this world... I don't know everything there is, but I surely know enough to build most conventional buildings if asked to.

I understand that the reason I don't have any business for my building and landscaping services is most likely how new I am. But I've worked with the in-world building and landscaping tools enough to at least know what everything does, and have ideas of how to use that for something..

I'm newer than most, yes, but I can build better things than many people who I've seen have been here for a year or more, and who enjoy building... My sister was showing myself and my other sister how to make a bed, she's been here for a little over a year (On that toon, her 3rd character I think..maybe I'm wrong on that bit though), and my other sister for 3 times as long as I have. The one teaching made a basic bed, yes, but in half the time I made a bed with 4 more prims, and much more inviting to the eye... the learning sister didn't even know how to use the tools... I know that thats just because she isn't here for the building or anything, she enjoys man other things, but I still found it odd she didn't know how to open th 'build' window.

I've helped my Mistress build a Garden with the family, I've made a 25 prim, 20m high sculpty tree that in my opinion, and a few others', looks rather nice. I've built a three story home, with a slight roman or greek touch to its design, and I made every bed (Except the sex bed, cant script, I'm just a builder for now lol), every dresser, and most other furniture in the house. I love my house, I know its not as amazing as many, but I envisioned exactly what I have now.

I've built a waterfall, from scratch, and used only two objects that weren't made by me, the water and the waterfall part itself. I even did the particles (Not from scratch, but I felt quite accomplished anyway)

I'm not trying to brag in this thread, I'm trying to say some of the things I've accomplished, in less than two months, testaments to my 'newness' I suppose, since all of them are apparently null, purely because I've been here for so little.

I found out about the Ivory tower of prims two weeks ago, its a wonderful tutorial... but on my own in that time (A month or so) I already knew how to do it all, though I'll admit I hadnt thought of the copy, ctrl-z, rotate use for make circles of arches... I simply did the math in my head to place things around a point until then.

Can anyone tell me why I'm being told that I can't possibly know things that are readily available to the public if you look for them, just because I'm new? I went looking for ways to improve my building skills. I found tips many places, and I was even helped a little by a friend, who initially taught me a couple things that helped in building my first building (Seemed alot bigger back then lol).

In my 'short' time here, I've build a log house, a two story, 20x40 'mansion' (My thought at the time anyway), a 35x45 (Or so) three story slightly roman/greek home, a 1024m plot Garden, with a second layer in the sky, about 20 unique fountains, some sculptures, bridges, tables, chairs, my wonderful(In my opinion... i'm proud of it) tree... I've build ponds with prims and with landscaping, I've built a pool, I've done much more than I would expect from someone so young honestly... and yet people don't ask what I've done, they ask how long I've been here.

I don't understand it. I know that I can't offer the same amazing quality that a 2 year old vet could, but I don't say that I do, and I certainly don't charge as such...

I'd like to know why I'm being told that I can't possibly know much about building (Essentially) because I'm so new, when every day, when I log in, while I'm talking to people while I'm with my Mistress, most of my friends, if I'm on my property, if I'm anywhere I can build, I literally am. I am quite good with the in-world tools(In my opinion), and I'm learning sculpties now, and I love to build... SO why can't I have learned much in that time? I have spent well over 200, maybe even 300 hours just because I like to build., and more when I'm actually asked to make something...

I've answered questions here when I could, and I've helped people in world when I've seen they need it, or when asked to help, and have not known an answer when I personally was asked...

And sorry for the bitterness, but this is really bothering me.. I was essentially told I wouldn't be able to teach someone anything but the basics of building, based just on my SL age... I don't think thats right

Just a thought, perhaps invest in land, display some of your builds so people can get a good idea of what your able to accomplish.

I own approx 3000m of land, with two gardens (One in the works, just trying to think of what to add), and my aforementioned 3-story home). These are my proudest works.. and I have everything else available to be shown at any time.. it's not a matter of whether my work is visible...

How are you being discriminated against? People telling you something that isn't true is just a wrong opinion, it's not discrimination. If based upon this opinion they were preventing you from accomplishing something, selling, or attending a class, or not allowing you to do something that everyone else can do, then that would be discrimination. My advice would be to not be concerned with what others think, and keep doing what you are doing and prove them wrong.

I have been told before (Multiple times) that they were looking for someone that wasn't so new for a job
EDIT:: WIthout asking to see any builds at all as well.. I understand completely if they see my work and say no because it's not quite professional quality (This has happened.. once.. which is completely understandable after I though about it.. was one of SLs best building/landscaping companies lol)

/me zips in, sees what is meant by discrimination over SL age, and zips out again

lol... sorry...dunno how else to word it o.o

I've known several new people who have started making cool stuff within days of logging into SL. One knew poser beforehand, and started making complex animations on his fourth day. Another had toyed with 3D studio and caught on to prim building at an advanced level within two weeks.

One thing about SL is that one can have skills already in place that they can use in-world. This is seen not just in building, but also business skills, and social networking skills. So, age is not necessarily an indicator of ability.

I wish I still had access to rhinoceros... I would be great at sculpties then lol.. but yeah, thats what I mean.. there are plenty of people with lots of skill very early, but I'm being told that that isn't possible apparently, and losing job opportunities because of it.

Experience isn't necessarily about how much you have learnt in particular skills in a given time, no matter how good you are, sometimes it's about other things. There are many things that help decide whether someone is capable of doing what is required of them.

For example, if the persons looking for builders have been here a long time, their personal experiences of employing someone who's been here a short period of time may already have been tarnished by someone else.

However, just keep going for it, eventually you will find someone who will employ you and when one job comes in, you will find that others may follow.

I know a builder who's been here less than a year and already their reputation is so good, they get asked to build full SIMs regularly, however, they are probably an exception, I do know they can script a build to rez 14,000 prims in 5 hours on a full SIM and they do a lot of complete SIM builds for kudos and not money.

Okiphia,

"Time on the job" is, unfortunately, a discriminator in hiring someone. It's wrong, of course...you, with a couple of months of intense experience and practice, may be far better than someone who's been in SL a year or more, but has less talent and practice.

But it's so easy to make that a factor, that it happens all the time, in RL and in SL.

One way to counter it is to say, "Let me show you what I can do", and take them to some of your builds.

Or say, "I know I haven't been in SL long, but I'm good and I'm fast...tell you what, hire me at half price. I'll work for you for a week. At the end of the week, if you don't agree that I'm worth the full price, we'll part ways with no hard feelings. Just give me a chance."

Why don't you start your own business? I did when I was 2 months old. Seems to be working out alright, and I have to admit that I have learned a hell of a lot in 10 months about customer service, working with people from other cultures, keeping detailed books, etc. One thing you might consider is in your 3000 m parcel, setting stuff for sale as copies. That way if people wander through your garden and go "oooh I want that tree!" they can click on it and buy a copy. Things might be slow at first but it's sometimes good to take your time, to avoid potential costly mistakes later on.

Okiphia, that very same situation happened to me when I started in SL a while ago. I had an opportunity to be part of a team to build entire sims. I was also doubted and set aside solely because I had been in SL for a little over a month. You won't get any serious consideration for building projects unless you prove you've had the time to develop skills or you can show samples of your work. You could use some time to build samples of your ideas and save them in your inventory, that way you could rezz them on demand, or take photos of past projects.
My heart goes to you. Stand proud of your work and have faith. One lost opportunity is not the end of the world. You'll have other, better chances in the future.

There are a number of factors that go into such decisions. To cite an easy example, a recently born AV - by definition - doesn't have the track record for "likely to be here until the job is finished".

Discrimination between suppliers on task relevant factors isn't "bad" discrimination, it is natural. You may be the best creator at what you do, but most creative industries have a period of "paying your dues" and part of those dues in SL is sticking around long enough to give customers confidence. Selling services is perhaps the most sensitive to the "due of longevity"; the number of customers that have gotten burned for incomplete services is larger than it should be. This also has a lot to do with the absence of contract enforcement by LL and lack of performance bonds (with teeth) which only LL can do but won't.

I addition to the good examples listed above. Start selectively handing out freebies. I know of no better way to get recognition in SL than to give someone something that has no marginal cost to you.

Good luck (and I intend to check our your stuff).

This is great advice.

I have to admit - I'm having a little trouble with the term 'discrimination' being used here. Typically when I think of discrimination, I think of the sex or racial variety.... both of which are pretty universally regarded in our culture as immoral - and sometimes even illegal.

But "discrimination" based upon qualifications just aint discrimination, I'm afraid to say.

If I'm paying for a service, I have *every right* to be picky about who does work for me. While limiting candidates to those who have 6 months of experience might inadvertantly leave out some talented folks - overall - its safer, and just downright practical.

Its called 'paying your dues'. Its tough in the beginning, but it'll get easier, trust me



I respectfully disagree. Its neither wrong nor unfortunate.... its just reality

I know what you mean.. looking back should have used 'bias', but oh well... couldn't think of the word at the time I suppose

I have a rl friend I try to emulate who, when someone says something that he knows is untrue just laughs and laughs. He doesn't take it into himself at all, or even respond verbally or get defensive. I think it's a good way to respond.

I wouldn't worry. Just do what you are interested in doing.

I have noticed how people's SL join dates can mean almost nothing. Not always, but sometimes. There are people who joined, left after a week, then came back two years later. There are people who don't build much. There are people who hit the ground running.

This is no different than RL jobs that have time of experience requirements. The market determines this much of the time. If there weren't enough builders out there to select from then they would have to remove that requirement. Apparently they believe there are enough.

Having worked in recruiting, I tell people to ignore those requirements when they look for a job. Many times a company will list them but then be more flexible when you submit a resume. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. Unfortunately for you, this is one of those times that you didn't.

I'm impressed with how much you've done in such a short time. There will be plenty more opportunities out there.

Oh, totally okay. I was jes goofin' off.

Mari

Don't let it get to you. This happens in every game...small-minded people with little or nothing to offer ingame point to their veteran status as a form of self-validation. 'I've been here X years and am better than you.' I've met newbies that could outbuild veterans, as well as newbs that couldn't find the build button. You see the same things in forums too 'You've only made X posts to my X-thousand posts'.

Its the amount of effort and time you put in each day, not some arbitrary 'born on' date that matters...Don't let the impressed with their time ingame folks get you down.

I don't think this is what happened to Okiphia, unless I'm misunderstanding the situation.

She was rejected for a paid job within SL because of her account age. That doesn't make her potential customer small minded, nor self-important. Her potential customer was likely just trying to find the most qualified builder to do the work.

If we had two builders, and one was saying they were better than everyone else simply because of their age - I'd completely agree with you. Its a silly argument to make - and like others have said, length of time in-world doesn't gurantee competence.

I'd be careful not to confuse player-rivlary (which you're right - exists in many games) vs. contract for services - the latter of which is what's going on here.

Age Discrimination is actually a real world legal issue in the US of A. Most of the time, though, it involves people close to retirement (and sometimes just someone that is 40, and someone else that is 25, both up for a particular job).

I see age discrimination here. Except for one occasion, apparently, it wasn't "qualifcations" that disqualified the OP but age. And yes, qualifications and the like is something that is allowed to be used in making decisions. Age is also, but it is risky, legally, to base a decision on two equally qualified people by the applicants age.

I do think that this is an unjustified statement ... indeed, you could have learned much in a short calendar time, particularly if you have 3D artisan skills already.

But as others have pointed out, time-in-game is a perfectly reasonable criteria if hiring a builder, or for many other roles. You of course can counter by asking them to actually see your work. Personally, if I were hiring a builder for a big job (for RL money) I would be interested in how many happy customers they've had in the past, and ask for a couple of references. I say, sell some of your things yourself, maybe give some away for visibility, build a track record.

One thing you may wish to consider: as a hiring manager, I would raise my eyebrows at the emotional tone of your OP. I certainly wouldn't want someone who became extremely upset if I made an offhand comment that was offbase. Builders must not only be competent, but easy to work with.

It seems to me that two of the major status symbols in SL are length of service and how much one knows about SL.

I agree it's possible to become a proficient builder in a short time if one gets the hang of the system. - after all, I did (boast, boast LOL!).

But people do make assumptions, sometimes unfairly, about people in relation to length of service.

But this is not really age discrimination, so much as seniority discrimination, like happens in RL companies based on how lon you've worked there. I am not 1 year old, I'm 26 (permanently, I set that age when I came here and intend to stay that way) but I've been in SL 1 year. What I did for the previous 25 years I've forgotten.

The other day a guy in a club was saying how he had 47,000 items in his inventory and when I said I only had 3600 (now reduced to 2800 in clear-out), he said 'do I smell a noob?'. I looked at his profile and then pointed out I'd been in SL a year, quite a bit longet than him!