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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-15-2006 10:37
As i posted elswhere i went and had a look at the libsl website and i have posted a couple of links below which i believe shows the underlying current with libsl to use the programs they create to make them money on the side as well as getting a pat on the head from LL.

The first that came to my attention was the God mode hack which netted a cool $1000 dollars in sales:

http://www.libsecondlife.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15

Nice going guys ;) Which adds wieght to the claim that perhaps you were happy to release the copybot onto SLX whilst shouting loudly after the event we did not do it as it seems mighty suspect shortly after Baba placed this comment on your front page it was on sale:

http://www.libsecondlife.org/

"CopyBot is not a product that we sell or distribute. It’s a debugging tool and silly demo with a [now] obviously bad choice of name. Hopefully you won’t be seeing copy bot on SLex any time soon.."

Yeah right just like the God mode hack i suppose etc. etc. ;)

The second thread that got my attention was

http://www.libsecondlife.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36

and i take a point from the thread:

"* LL is glad to have us working on libsecondlife. They pointed out (and Cory later reiterated in http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2006/08/19/slcc-keynote-speech-part-2-cory-ondreika/) that we have more people subscribed to the libsecondlife-dev mailing list than Linden Lab has paid developers. They see more value in working with us and encouraging us to explore areas they don't have to than trying to impede our progress and get in an arms-war with encryption, etc -- this is of course constrained by their general business with the sims and official client, as well as a (hopefully dwindling) number of sensitive area WRT exploits, etc

* "Everything will change" within the next few months -- LL wishes we had maybe started 3 months later and feels we may be wasting our time (but isn't telling us to stop)"

which shows me LLs has rolled over like a puppy with a "please dont hurt us" attitude to these hackers instead of placing resources in house to protect their platform. Makes me wonder after reading the site who is holding whose lead.

I sincerly hope that LLs reins libSL in, as tho i think its needed in the long term to advance SL to the platform LLs wants, i believe there are to many inflated egos amongst them and there lies the inherent problem with lots of wannabes jostling for LLs attention as we have seen with the recent projects that they have worked on and the way that they treat others that dare question their intelligence or motives in the forums or blogs.

Peace
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Seola Sassoon
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Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
11-15-2006 10:41
Wow Lord, certainly even more eye opening info.
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-15-2006 10:46
From: Seola Sassoon
Wow Lord, certainly even more eye opening info.


Its me RL job it so spills over to here sometimes ;)
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Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
11-15-2006 10:47
Good post Lord. Thank you for that.
Joannah Cramer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,539
11-15-2006 10:59
From: someone
* LL (..) see more value in working with us and encouraging us to explore areas they don't have to (..)
* One of the Lindens gave an example of how they see us as helping them -- the scenario of building a stripped-down SL client for use on a phone was thrown out. Linden would be happy to see us get one of those working, because we would then be able to explore issues of usability -- how do you make a client usable with a small screen? If they later chose to write such a client themselves, they would benefit from the research we do

Heh well there you have it actually admitted openly. libsl is to stay because it saves LL few bucks on salaries for people they'd otherwise have to hire...
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-15-2006 11:09
From: Joannah Cramer
Heh well there you have it actually admitted openly. libsl is to stay because it saves LL few bucks on salaries for people they'd otherwise have to hire...


I only deal with honesty but with all the fervour thourght it was important to bring the info into play as some are missing it and motives to me play a big part in this mess we now have in SL ;)
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-15-2006 12:35
From: Dana Hickman
Good post Lord. Thank you for that.


Its better with more facts in the arena and then let people draw their own conclusions ;)
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Showdog Tiger
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Join date: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 404
Well Said Lord!
11-15-2006 12:38
Dearly Darlings,

I argee with Lord. Motive is always behind action.

Ever Yours,

Mrs Showdog Tiger
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Dogdom Doge
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
11-15-2006 13:14
Libsl can do what they like, and the rest of us can go take a hike.

coco
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-15-2006 13:36
From: Cocoanut Koala
Libsl can do what they like, and the rest of us can go take a hike.

coco


Yeah thats the impression ive been getting Coco but its not right whatever they think. I had to post this thread as i believe greed is a big factor here as they certainly dont seem to be the support i would like if i was in LLs shoes, they really do need reining in and made an example of but after reading their forums and related posts from there it seems they can do no wrong and have LLs blessing to create whatever they wish and damage the community as they see fit and then claim it wasnt me lol

LLs should put a team of Devs together and secure them with NDAs etc and then allow them to work on OS, which if handled correctly is the right thing to do as SL needs to grow, but as was shown, i personally believe LLs are scared of them and what they percieve they can do to them if they show them the door and thats the worse part of this whole cock up.

They have been given enough rope and they have imho Hung themselves, so time for a change methinks and i so hope LL takes their head out of the sand cos libsl are surely kicking LLs arse whilst its buried there selling these hacks as they are discovered on the open market sheesh kids eh ;)
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-16-2006 03:00
From: Joannah Cramer
Heh well there you have it actually admitted openly. libsl is to stay because it saves LL few bucks on salaries for people they'd otherwise have to hire...


Also i found this link in another thread so have posted it in this thread as well due to the volume of postings.

http://www.sluniverse.com/forums/Topic12867-1-1.aspx

Thanks to Cristiano for posting this link as it shows that a section of libSL wanted to release this onto SL and thourght it was fun to do so. Draw your own conclusions but for me it shows that LLs truely need to act on these members and resolve the issues around libSL immediately as these members should not be allowed to continue with the project and LLs needs to rethink its open source stratagies with libSL.

Please ensure that you read this post if you have time :)

Peace
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Ishtara Rothschild
Do not expose to sunlight
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 569
11-16-2006 03:11
Thanks so much for digging this up, Lord Sullivan. Most interesting reading. Especially parts like
From: someone
Nov 10 19:03:04 BabaYama the bot should just teleport around to every sim stealing attachments and apperaances and storing them in folders
Nov 10 19:03:17 BabaYama then we will have all kinds of great demo materials
Nov 10 19:04:15 BabaYama hah
Nov 10 19:04:46 BabaYama "why would you create something like that?" I think we have an obligation to do it ;0
Nov 10 19:04:59 BabaYama just so there are no misconceptions about it
No, Baba, there are no further misconceptions about it. The guys who crashed the grid not long ago sure thought they had "the obligation to do so" too.
Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
11-16-2006 03:21
Nah the worst to me was:

From: someone
Nov 10 18:50:16 BabaYama now we're gonna steal your shit
Nov 10 18:50:28 BabaYama haha
Nov 10 18:50:31 BabaYama and run away with it ;0

Nov 10 18:58:57 BabaYama we should send a press release to all the SL news agencies with humorous h4x0r talk about all the shiz we can do with libSL to steal and cheat
Nov 10 18:59:12 Cw this just in: pwnd
Nov 10 18:59:55 BabaYama hehe
Nov 10 18:59:57 BabaYama wait
Nov 10 18:59:59 Cw dear adam reuters: pwnd! sincerely, #libsl

Nov 10 19:08:34 Belaya Just because you've had assurances from LL at one point doesn't mean they'll be there the next day. You should know that one by now.
Nov 10 19:08:48 BabaYama Belaya, i could care less at this point what assurances LL gave us ;0
ed44 Gupte
Explorer (Retired)
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 638
11-16-2006 03:26
All the more reason to keep libsl open and encourage them to continue. I believe that if these folks were working under cover in closed groups much more damage would be done to SL.

The greatest threat to SL is a hidden closed process involving unprincipled hackers finding and exploiting holes in SL. The faster libsl progresses and gets these holes fixed, the less likely unprincipled hackers can damage SL.

What I see the OP quoting is immature adolescent behaviour. I hesitate to say this, but maybe very American? Dumb and dumber ring a bell? You cannot afford for these people to work in hidden ways. You must encourage them to work in the open.

In some ways this is like the preview grid. I often go there but seldom see anyone else. So the preview grid is never stressed like the main grid. Then folks complain that the update sucked! Similarly, you need to visit these folks more, look over their shoulder, encourage them where appropriate! Make them feel you're interested in what they are doing! You need for these guys to stay ahead of the black hatters.

That way you will not be surprised or panicked when stuff happens.

Ed
Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
11-16-2006 03:32
From: ed44 Gupte
All the more reason to keep libsl open and encourage them to continue. I believe that if these folks were working under cover in closed groups much more damage would be done to SL.

The greatest threat to SL is a hidden closed process involving unprincipled hackers finding and exploiting holes in SL. The faster libsl progresses and gets these holes fixed, the less likely unprincipled hackers can damage SL.


Okay, so let's all post how to break into your home, go do it so you can see the holes, then let you make the statement that you won't try to stay ahead of thieves because no matter what they'll find ways into your house.

From: someone
What I see the OP quoting is immature adolescent behaviour. I hesitate to say this, but maybe very American? Dumb and dumber ring a bell? You cannot afford for these people to work in hidden ways. You must encourage them to work in the open.


Wow. Just wow. I thought stereotyping people off a satire movie was immature and adolescent... silly me!

From: someone
In some ways this is like the preview grid. I often go there but seldom see anyone else. So the preview grid is never stressed like the main grid. Then folks complain that the update sucked! Similarly, you need to visit these folks more, look over their shoulder, encourage them where appropriate! Make them feel you're interested in what they are doing! You need for these guys to stay ahead of the black hatters.

That way you will not be surprised or panicked when stuff happens.

Ed


So it's our fault for not logging in for the 20 or so hours the preview grid has the next update on it? It's our fault for the Lindens adding in features that weren't on the preview grid?

Sure, staying ahead is one thing. But openly refusing to do anything about security because you don't want to... then this group is just publishing ways to do things you aren't supposed to. It's not exactly beneficial if this group finds exploits, laughs about them and you plan on doing nothing about thier codes.
Ishtara Rothschild
Do not expose to sunlight
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 569
11-16-2006 03:44
From: ed44 Gupte
All the more reason to keep libsl open and encourage them to continue. I believe that if these folks were working under cover in closed groups much more damage would be done to SL.

The greatest threat to SL is a hidden closed process involving unprincipled hackers finding and exploiting holes in SL. The faster libsl progresses and gets these holes fixed, the less likely unprincipled hackers can damage SL.

What I see the OP quoting is immature adolescent behaviour. I hesitate to say this, but maybe very American? Dumb and dumber ring a bell? You cannot afford for these people to work in hidden ways. You must encourage them to work in the open.

In some ways this is like the preview grid. I often go there but seldom see anyone else. So the preview grid is never stressed like the main grid. Then folks complain that the update sucked! Similarly, you need to visit these folks more, look over their shoulder, encourage them where appropriate! Make them feel you're interested in what they are doing! You need for these guys to stay ahead of the black hatters.

That way you will not be surprised or panicked when stuff happens.

Ed


So, they're white hatters? Just to make sure. I already read an open threat by another LibSL affiliate, about their option to turn into black hatters if we yell at them too much. Pointing this out is immature behaviour?

LL has the account data of these guys on file. They can be sued when they come back for more after a ban. Hacking is no minor offense, as far as I know. But for that to work we may have to put the glorious metaverse dream aside and verify all accounts again... not gonna happen. Let's rather bend over. Has paying protection money ever been a solution?
CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
11-16-2006 04:05
From: ed44 Gupte
All the more reason to keep libsl open and encourage them to continue.
Ed


As your landlord ed, I'm going to start giving away keys to your appartment.

Then I'm going to announce that a select few criminals may come and attempt to break in with impunity. During the daytime. So I can watch. If they want to distribute more copies of the keys they may of course.

Oh, and I'm not going to change the locks because nothing can be made 100% secure.
ed44 Gupte
Explorer (Retired)
Join date: 7 Oct 2005
Posts: 638
11-16-2006 04:19
From: Ishtara Rothschild
So, they're white hatters? Just to make sure. I already read an open threat by another LibSL affiliate, about their option to turn into black hatters if we yell at them too much. Pointing this out is immature behaviour?

LL has the account data of these guys on file. They can be sued when they come back for more after a ban. Hacking is no minor offense, as far as I know. But for that to work we may have to put the glorious metaverse dream aside and verify all accounts again... not gonna happen. Let's rather bend over. Has paying protection money ever been a solution?

I never said that " Pointing this out is immature behaviour?". I am just surprised that you guys are surprised by the actions of libsl. What I am saying is that the libsl community contains some very clever but immature people. Am I stereotyping when I say that Americans are very legalistic, moralistic and impractical? Is that why Australia's aids incidence is much lower than in North America? (We do run an extensive needle exchange program). I only point this out because you seem to saying that by saying a thing will be so that it actually will be so. Pass a law that people will not use drugs and they won't use drugs? Pass a law that they will not develop the libsl client and they will stop? I don't think so!

Putting your heads in the sand and hiding from reality will not fix this situation. Opening the can and monitoring it may!


LL have stated that half of the increased SL population is from outside the USA. SL wil change!

I have made my point. Our philosophies differ so I will not post anymore. I shut up now!

Have fun!

Ed
Fluffy Apocalypse
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 3
11-16-2006 05:13
From: someone
This is a chat log from the #libsl channel - several of the people in the chat log are prominent members of the group. There have been public statements by members that they had no intention of upsetting people and are doing this all for the good of SL - yet several days before this entire thing exploded, they are gleefully discussing causing people to freak out. I bolded relevant parts - it begins about halfway down, but I left the rest in for context. I will caveat this by saying this does not represent all libsl members - but it does not speak very well of the principal people involved with the project who seem to find this all quite hilarious.

Nov 10 18:42:51 BabaYama ;0
Nov 10 18:42:58 BabaYama hamlet is already on my case for being a griefer
Nov 10 18:43:10 jhurliman can anyone find a quaternion calculator online? i'm trying to generate some test cases for nunit
Nov 10 18:43:11 bushing who's hamlet
Nov 10 18:43:12 maxine hamlet is already on BabaYama's case for being a griefer
Nov 10 18:43:14 frob maxine: forget hamlet
Nov 10 18:43:14 bushing ugh
Nov 10 18:43:15 maxine frob: I forgot hamlet
Nov 10 18:43:30 jhurliman bushing, http://nwn.blogs.com/
Nov 10 18:43:50 * bushing has had trauma w/ quaternions
Nov 10 18:44:37 jhurliman short story: he used to be a linden, as their official reporter but he's an independent guy now (with ties to LL). considered one of the more notable SL blogs
Nov 10 18:44:55 jhurliman i made a video with him this afternoon so libsecondlife should be on that page sometime this weekend
Nov 10 18:45:21 Cw "In 2006, the effects of first-time immersion in virtual worlds were documented by many technologists and sociologists, none quite as sadistic as Hurliaman, who took Milgram's approach in reinforcing that, regardless of their attempts to hit various keys or move the mouse in any direction, they could not depart (or even climb) orientation island
Nov 10 18:45:26 jhurliman anecdotes: anshe chung doesn't like him, and he thinks baba is a griefer.
Nov 10 18:45:41 bushing jhurliman, probably before we get on metaverse sessions, eh?
Nov 10 18:45:47 Cw fuck mark
Nov 10 18:45:52 bushing lol
Nov 10 18:46:02 jhurliman Cw: ??
Nov 10 18:46:25 Cw not a big deal jh
Nov 10 18:46:39 BabaYama jhurliman, he knows who I am ;0 he just wants to know why i left that plane (parts) in the art gallery ;0
Nov 10 18:46:46 BabaYama haha honestly i forgot about it
Nov 10 18:46:47 jhurliman one question mark for "In 2006..." and one for "fuck mark"
Nov 10 18:47:07 Cw bush is a little shy when it comes to things like these so i had to egg him on a little bit to get you two on metaverse sessions
Nov 10 18:47:17 jhurliman BabaYama, i think one of the owners IMed me this morning and was like "nooooooo!!! why does baba hate us?"
Nov 10 18:47:21 Cw who knows where johnny ming is
Nov 10 18:47:28 BabaYama haha
Nov 10 18:47:42 BabaYama what did they say? ;0
Nov 10 18:47:43 Cw Milgam was learned helplessness
Nov 10 18:48:02 jhurliman Cw: our interview got cut! :-\
Nov 10 18:48:08 Belaya Many people don't like Hamlet, heh.
Nov 10 18:48:12 Cw not in my book
Nov 10 18:48:27 jhurliman bushing, you might recognize hamlet from SLCC too
Nov 10 18:48:28 Cw come on are yous erious?
Nov 10 18:48:34 Cw let's talk about in world fashion
Nov 10 18:48:37 Cw oh shit
Nov 10 18:48:41 Cw someone is stealing my textures
Nov 10 18:48:43 Cw dmca report!
Nov 10 18:48:49 Cw lindens must be on top of those
Nov 10 18:48:52 * Belaya laughs.
Nov 10 18:48:53 BabaYama jhurliman, i dont think he was paying attention to anything
Nov 10 18:49:00 bushing suck it
Nov 10 18:49:00 BabaYama he spent all of SLCC in the dark with his computer
Nov 10 18:49:18 Cw libSL is the most important thing happening in this space
Nov 10 18:49:22 jhurliman i'm going to walk away for 5 minutes to cook a pizza, and when i return hopefully this conversation makes sense
Nov 10 18:49:23 bushing ugh
Nov 10 18:49:25 BabaYama but he dates a linden now ;0 so he will learn ;0
Nov 10 18:49:27 Cw not whatever ming "cut" it for
Nov 10 18:49:38 bushing azureus is like totally shitting all over my viewer
Nov 10 18:50:05 BabaYama Cw, they did the interview like months ago
Nov 10 18:50:10 BabaYama when shit was boring
Nov 10 18:50:16 BabaYama now we're gonna steal your shit
Nov 10 18:50:28 BabaYama haha
Nov 10 18:50:31 BabaYama and run away with it ;0
Nov 10 18:50:34 BabaYama like that griever
Nov 10 18:50:39 BabaYama with the tv ;0
Nov 10 18:50:42 BabaYama "Your Tv"
Nov 10 18:51:03 Cw do what now?
Nov 10 18:51:12 Cw alright
Nov 10 18:51:30 Cw admittedly, yes, the highlight at that point was injecting packets to give people god mode
Nov 10 18:51:39 BabaYama haha
Nov 10 18:51:55 BabaYama now the highlight is "OH SHIT"
Nov 10 18:52:09 Cw the mutha fuckin' spotlight
Nov 10 18:52:31 BabaYama MUTHA FUCKIN' HALOGEN
Nov 10 18:52:41 bushing so is the object stealer in SVN yet or not?
Nov 10 18:52:50 bushing Cw, did ou see this?
Nov 10 18:53:00 BabaYama oh yeah our object stealer
Nov 10 18:53:05 Cw i just don't know where on the spectrum of LL ridiculousness their "open source client" in "dec" will fall
Nov 10 18:53:08 Cw no
Nov 10 18:53:17 BabaYama and there is supposedly an exploit still functional to steal scripts
Nov 10 18:53:28 bushing BabaYama, do you have that image?
Nov 10 18:53:32 Cw so combined with rob hubbard, you've got a complete cloner?
Nov 10 18:53:35 BabaYama heh
Nov 10 18:53:42 Cw ahem
Nov 10 18:53:43 Cw ron
Nov 10 18:53:51 * Cw not a big scientologist
Nov 10 18:53:56 BabaYama bushing, yeah let me upload it to libSL ;0
Nov 10 18:54:03 BabaYama cause i put it on my website and that fucker is down
Nov 10 18:54:44 IceBrodie hrm, need to initiate teleport start and end...
Nov 10 18:55:10 IceBrodie at least teleport home works.
Nov 10 18:55:30 Cw bush you did meet hamlet
Nov 10 18:56:19 BabaYama http://www.libsecondlife.org/images/libsl/stealing.jpg
Nov 10 18:56:24 bushing oh shit someone jsut tired to talk to me in SL
Nov 10 18:56:26 bushing gotta sign off
Nov 10 18:56:50 Cw heh'
Nov 10 18:57:25 bushing that was a close one
Nov 10 18:58:02 Cw so this is something that observes an object, recording it prim by prim + texture, then reconstructs identical new object?
Nov 10 18:58:57 BabaYama we should send a press release to all the SL news agencies with humorous h4x0r talk about all the shiz we can do with libSL to steal and cheat
Nov 10 18:59:12 Cw this just in: pwnd
Nov 10 18:59:55 BabaYama hehe
Nov 10 18:59:57 BabaYama wait
Nov 10 18:59:59 Cw dear adam reuters: pwnd! sincerely, #libsl
Nov 10 19:00:14 BabaYama first we need to get a bot that can duplicate all the attachments on a furry and wear them
Nov 10 19:00:46 Cw shouldn't some furry have to code that?
Nov 10 19:00:53 BabaYama ;0
Nov 10 19:01:03 BabaYama no we will just pretend it's for stealing silly hats
Nov 10 19:01:08 BabaYama but it works for furries too
Nov 10 19:01:19 BabaYama oh and prim hair
Nov 10 19:01:23 BabaYama right off your head
Nov 10 19:01:26 Cw is it running right now?
Nov 10 19:01:29 BabaYama ;0
Nov 10 19:01:30 BabaYama soon
Nov 10 19:02:20 BabaYama ahah
Nov 10 19:02:57 Lancej I'm running the bot right now at the libsl HQ, trying to fix rotation.
Nov 10 19:03:04 BabaYama the bot should just teleport around to every sim stealing attachments and apperaances and storing them in folders
Nov 10 19:03:17 BabaYama then we will have all kinds of great demo materials
Nov 10 19:04:12 * IceBrodie files the DMCA paperwork now on her AV...
Nov 10 19:04:15 BabaYama hah
Nov 10 19:04:46 BabaYama "why would you create something like that?" I think we have an obligation to do it ;0
Nov 10 19:04:59 BabaYama just so there are no misconceptions about it
Nov 10 19:05:07 jhurliman i think it will promote uniqueness
Nov 10 19:05:30 BabaYama HAH
Nov 10 19:05:44 BabaYama it would be fun to compare the number of identical shapes
Nov 10 19:05:48 BabaYama ;0
Nov 10 19:05:51 BabaYama and hair
Nov 10 19:06:03 BabaYama and all that ;0
Nov 10 19:06:17 jhurliman if everyone is able to easily become anyone else with the press of a button, then it's not cool to be someone else. people will want to create their own avatars, or modify existing ones to tweak them to their preferences instead of buying the boxed version (no mod) and dealing with it
Nov 10 19:06:33 Belaya Y'know, as amusing as I find the clone bot -- rubbing that in everyone's face is seriously negative publicity, Baba. It's not wise.
Nov 10 19:06:48 jhurliman so someone is able to steal a furry outfit and learn how the creator built it. OH NOES LEARNING!
Nov 10 19:06:50 BabaYama Belaya, yes
Nov 10 19:06:50 Lancej I wonder how long it would take to have it travel to every sim and copy every object.
Nov 10 19:06:52 BabaYama yes it's very wise
Nov 10 19:06:59 Belaya Heh, your funeral.
Nov 10 19:07:10 BabaYama It's not supposed to be good publicity
Nov 10 19:07:17 Cw it's got to be done
Nov 10 19:07:27 BabaYama damn straight Cw
Nov 10 19:07:33 Cw someone's got to teach prokofy what's going on here
Nov 10 19:07:38 BabaYama hah
Nov 10 19:07:38 Cw er, the community, i meant
Nov 10 19:07:54 BabaYama they all have the same level of understanding ;0
Nov 10 19:08:22 BabaYama prokofy isnt some unique idiot.. she is just loud and proclaimes her ignorance to the world
Nov 10 19:08:34 Belaya Just because you've had assurances from LL at one point doesn't mean they'll be there the next day. You should know that one by now.
Nov 10 19:08:48 BabaYama Belaya, i could care less at this point what assurances LL gave us ;0
Nov 10 19:08:50 Belaya Still, I was amused when I saw Hubbard the other night.
Nov 10 19:08:51 Cw well said belaya
Nov 10 19:09:08 Cw still, expecting privacy in a virtual world, by now,
Nov 10 19:09:13 Cw ......


deserves to be reproduced in its full glory, I think.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Registered User
Join date: 13 May 2006
Posts: 448
11-16-2006 05:45
Absolutely NO point debating the issue.
The problem is that the managment of LL is unprofessional, out of touch and irresponsible.

At this point I believe that a change of managment is the only thing that will save Second Life - I can only hope the investors are of the same mind.

If not, then this self destructive spiral of irrational managment decisions will continue to its conclusion.

But I don't believe that any amount of internal debate will lead anywhere. The managment is so out of control that only swift action by the investors to remove them before they can cause further damage will allow SL to continue. Otherwise I give it six months max,
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-16-2006 05:51
From: ed44 Gupte
All the more reason to keep libsl open and encourage them to continue. I believe that if these folks were working under cover in closed groups much more damage would be done to SL.


Hi ed i agree to some extent with what you say here as i to feel that to push these imature idiots underground would perhaps cause more damage than good, however i feel that LL's has let us (the residents) down greatly by not enforceing a strict Non Disclosure Agreement with them and giving them the impression they have carte blanche to do as they will, which from my links within the thread seems to be the case. In this instance the perps should be punished, tho the pure fact u can at this moment in time create an account that in no way needs verifying, including the e.mail addy makes a mockery of any ban etc. as all they will lose is any lindens and inventory, which i would imagine they dont need as they all have several alts and would have transferred what they need to those alts by now.

From: someone

The greatest threat to SL is a hidden closed process involving unprincipled hackers finding and exploiting holes in SL. The faster libsl progresses and gets these holes fixed, the less likely unprincipled hackers can damage SL.


On this i to totally agree however i think these people need to be better controlled and firm guidelines laid down for them with real consequences to their actions. For example, my real life job requires me signing the Official Secrets Act and if i then go and discuss certain aspects of my job outside my workplace or even inside my workplace at any time now or in the future, i am under no illusion what will happen to me, i will end up in a small cell in jail for quite some time and then when im let out i will have lost everything. I know thats an extreme example but libSL have to learn that for every action there is going to be a reaction and at the moment they have been allowed to blatently break the TOS with impunity and that MUST STOP.

From: someone
What I see the OP quoting is immature adolescent behaviour. I hesitate to say this, but maybe very American? Dumb and dumber ring a bell? You cannot afford for these people to work in hidden ways. You must encourage them to work in the open.


It was very dumb immature adolescent behaviour imho by certain members of libSL, a bit like me giving my grandson a loaded gun with the safety catch off and then being suprised when someone gets injured when it goes off. I think LLs have given the tools to the wrong people and left the safety catch off and yet again libSL have proven they cant be trusted to help develop SL in the current form its taking.

I agree that to survive SL has to and will go open source but LLs needs to look at its proceedures around such a group of Devs and as some members of libSL have stated they will be bad if they get punished, to me that truely shows the maturity of some members, LLs should bite the bullet and let them go as they are structured atm and make it as difficult as possible for them to play their childish games and not to be scared of them. The pure nature of SL will always encourage hackers and idiots unfortunately and also the ridiculous way you can create an account needs to addressed forthwith as this imho is a big part of the problem we now face in SL.

From: someone

In some ways this is like the preview grid. I often go there but seldom see anyone else. So the preview grid is never stressed like the main grid. Then folks complain that the update sucked! Similarly, you need to visit these folks more, look over their shoulder, encourage them where appropriate! Make them feel you're interested in what they are doing! You need for these guys to stay ahead of the black hatters.

That way you will not be surprised or panicked when stuff happens.

Ed


I agree with your comments and i agree we should be looking over the shoulders of any resident groups allowed to do things when they are allowed to do so without fear of breaking the TOS as libSL have proven they perhaps are not the people to be doing this, the only other solution is to have complete transparency in these matters and with LLs doing what it is doing, transparency is not at the top of the list imho or perhaps LLs can invest more for an in-house team of Devs to deal with these matters and have better control as libSL have no control over themselves :)

Peace
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-16-2006 05:53
From: Fluffy Apocalypse
deserves to be reproduced in its full glory, I think.


Awww thanks i didnt have time to do it earlier this morning :)
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Joannah Cramer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,539
11-16-2006 07:30
From: ed44 Gupte
The greatest threat to SL is a hidden closed process involving unprincipled hackers finding and exploiting holes in SL. The faster libsl progresses and gets these holes fixed, the less likely unprincipled hackers can damage SL.

Ed, LL is very well aware of the holes libsl manages to find. They built the communication model in the first place, they know very well how much of the stuff sent from the client to server isn't verified. They just apparenly can't be arsed to fix any of this, relying on the flim security provided by their closed-source client to keep whole ship afloat.

With tools to poke under the hood of it (like libsl suite) widely available for everyone who isn't even associated with the project, for LL to still sit on their thumbs and only patch these holes handful of libsl programmers manage to discover... it's serious case of neglect, because at the same time you can expect quite a number of people out there is secretly utilizing the holes that weren't yet patched even though LL is aware of them, but libsl didn't stumble upon them yet...

"unprincipled hackers" aren't the greatest threat, unconcerned developers are.
Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
11-16-2006 07:52
From: Inigo Chamerberlin
Absolutely NO point debating the issue.
The problem is that the managment of LL is unprofessional, out of touch and irresponsible.

At this point I believe that a change of managment is the only thing that will save Second Life - I can only hope the investors are of the same mind.

If not, then this self destructive spiral of irrational managment decisions will continue to its conclusion.

But I don't believe that any amount of internal debate will lead anywhere. The managment is so out of control that only swift action by the investors to remove them before they can cause further damage will allow SL to continue. Otherwise I give it six months max,


http://www.libsecondlife.org/compon...tpage/Itemid,1/

and i quote from the page:

From: someone

libsecondlife Reorganization
Written by John Hurliman ( Thursday, 16 November 2006 )

The libsecondlife team was disappointed this morning to learn that several days ago, Baba Yamamoto and Nimrod Yaffle were both aware of and flaunting the misuse potential of the CopyBot test-suite. Mindless of the consequences of their actions, they persisted in demonstrating and distributing the application. In light of this betrayal of our trust and reckless attitude toward intellectual property concerns, we will not permit them to stand alongside us. Nimrod Yaffle was not, and has never been, a part of libsecondlife. Baba Yamamoto has now been told formally that he is no longer a part of the team and all his access has been withdrawn.

We will now restrict developer access to those who are capable of demonstrating maturity and self restraint, and who are respectful of the trust placed in us by Linden Lab and the greater SL community. Any new applications will uphold an ethical code that encourages new creativity in Second Life without harming others. We call upon the Second Life community to assist us in guiding the activities of our group and make sure that the new libsecondlife group is as open and transparent as possible, while not needlessly endangering the safety of our community. We will post a list of active projects on our website, available for public comment, and bring in the wider community for input on ways to use new technology to protect content instead of destroying it.

The libsecondlife team includes a number of people who are themselves content producers and the breach of trust is as damaging to our businesses as it is to others'. We, the libsecondlife developers, recognize that we must be more vigilant about controlling our creations -- we are deeply sorry for any part in the damage which may have been caused. We would like to begin today on a positive note, and will start by developing tools to aid the SL content creator in safeguarding their intellectual proprerty rights against attacks, both known and yet-to-be discovered.


Hmmm this post is from the man that sold the God Mode from one of his other 2 alt accounts http://www.libsecondlife.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15

I think we are seeing some back pedaling now that they have been rumbled, the fact is imho that this same guy was actively participating in the previous conversation posted in this thread and chose not to alert LLs and the community at large that copybot was to be unleashed onto the grid. Again have a read of the posted comversation in this thread and draw your own conclusions, as all members that were participants in this conversation and that didnt stop this on 10th Nov when it took place, are as bad, imho as the others that then went on to sell the copybot.

The poster was aware and did nothing so was as involved as the others, i know that this is a strong analogy to draw but if you were involved with a RL group that committed acts of terrorism (OK so this is Cyber Terrorism of sorts) you would not expect the authorities to say thats OK as you only knew and didnt take part as far as we can see we and if you just say sorry to those you hurt we will let you go unpunished and give you your continued pat on the head.

Personally after their recent forays into SL i still believe that they should be brought to book for their actions, in recent months we have seen whole groups banned for the actions of some of their members libSL is no different except that LLs gives them their blessing to continue to break the TOS.

Thanks for the apology but for me it holds no weight and im sure that will be reflected around the community as a whole, you have lost any trust and respect you had from me for a start and i am sure others will feel the same.

Its no good shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, you should have forseen this earlier (you were involved in the conversation on the 10th Nov and did nothing!) and taken strong steps to stop it dead, after this episode, one of several in the history of libSL i still call for LLs to take better and lasting action against your group to ensure this does not happen again and to totally rethink Open Source programming being left to renegade sections of the community.

If you truely cared this would not have happened in light of your 10th Nov conversation as if i can see it could have been prevented, then so should have you at that time.

Peace
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CJ Carnot
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 433
11-16-2006 09:13
From: Lord Sullivan
http://www.libsecondlife.org/compon...tpage/Itemid,1/
The poster was aware and did nothing so was as involved as the others


He was not only aware, he endorsed content theft during the same IRC conversation if the posted logs are true:

19:06:48 **** so someone is able to steal a furry outfit and learn how the creator built it. OH NOES LEARNING

The apology and action taken was insincere and insulting if this is the case.
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