Why is help often so half-hearted?

And for goodness sake don't expect other people to think.

Pep (Where would we be if everybody thought about what they were doing?)

But that's exactly my problem - it feels to me that the whole "hard work" think breaks that over its back. If I want to have control over what "I am" - or, if I want to be something that has recognition, like a performer etc. - I have to switch everything back to doing work; programming, graphic design, and similar. Now, doing even more programming (ie, something that's a big part of my day job) isn't exactly wish fulfillment for me

But the only other option is just to pay for everything.. which doesn't feel like wish fulfillment.. it, um, feels like paying for a gigolo. And, I'll never be able to claim any "special" role because anyone can pay for stuff. Now, that's fair enough, but being fair doesn't make it desirable!



Ah, but I wasn't talking about getting rich. If I wanted to make a magic wand I could RP with, it would be necessary for others to be using it too, otherwise it's unsupported and insisting that I use mine instead of the flavor of the day will just make me an awkward pest.. And to get others to use it, that requires marketing and competing on the market, otherwise it'll be eclipsed by a competing brand. But then, to stop that happening, I have to focus on making the item - not RPing. So either I can make the RP be closer to my imagination (but not actually take part in it), or take part on it (but have it based on someone else's designs).

So make one that's compatible. If the guy who made the flavor-of-the-day wand is being a pest and refuses to document it or at least explain it when you ask, do something else, because nothing messes up the magic like proprietary APIs.

It all depends on what you want to consider your "basic building blocks". If it has to be textures, prims, and scripts, then yes, you are in for a lot of hard work. If it can prefabs (clothes, buildings, whatever), then it's only as hard as tracking down really neat stuff.



You really are caught between a rock and a hard place then. Building is work, and buying makes you feel ugly inside, and makes you feel like every one else (and apparently that means not special).

It really sounds like SL isn't for you. But I have to wonder: how do you get buy in RL? You buy premade clothes, or do you make them yourself? If so, do you buy needle and thread, or do you sheer the sheep (or whatever the hell it is people do) and spin your own thread? And forge your own steel? That you smelted yourself, from minerals that you mined yourself? Using tools you make yourself... It goes on and on. Why do you have to start from scratch in SL to feel fulfilled?

You don't know what you want, do you?

That's why you are using hypothetical scenarios to dissect small parts of replies, while ignoring the other more-difficult parts. I think you want a debate, or a discussion maybe, but you don't want to face the harsh reality that the only one responsible for your fun is you, and that fun is the result of hard work.

I do hope you find whatever it is you are seeking Yumi.

-Atashi

p.s. Is it possible you are suffering from depression? "I want, but I don't know what I want" and "Nothing is fun any more" are two exact statements that come to me when I am experiencing a depressive episode. If this is affecting you in RL as well as SL you might want to talk to a health care professional.

Well... If I were concerned about being an awkward pest, I'd have been gone a long time ago. =^-^=

Heh... Being a pest is a form of RP all it's own. It's a careful balance of being bloody annoying and yet charming enough to prevent the majority of those I'm pestering from muting and/or reporting me. (^_^)y

Though... I can be troublesome when my reputation precedes me. (>_<

Well, of course being like everyone else means not being special, by definition!

I don't really mind too much buying prefabs per se, the problem is that a) it makes me dependent on someone else's imagination, and b) if I do, I've got no way to get other people involved, because it's just the same as the prefab everywhere else.

I mean, I saw somebody recently selling a prefab Halloween funhouse on Xstreet for L$30000. Now, that's a really good idea but the write-up for it casually talks about ".. your visitors" - what visitors are you going to get, when the original is rezzed in world already, and has all the advertising behind it? "Come to my.. uh, copy of that place.. it's.. uh, the same.. well, I mean, it's _mine_ though, I'm not the same person as the creator.. um, yea, I guess I could just teleport to the existing place.. no, it doesn't change or show any of my personality, it can't do, it's no modify.. and yea, if I was good enough to modify it, I could have just made one myself.. yea, I guess the original makers can show theirs though.. yea, I guess that does mean theirs is much more interesting.." Suffice to say that I don't think it's just "to sound creepy" that the killer clowns are laughing when they skip away with your US$112.

Plus, of course, I'd be happier buying prefabs if I was certain I couldn't create things myself, and I'm not certain.



Actually, I could deal with it much more easily if that were true. What actually appears to have happened is that not just the money market, but the "creative space" of SL has become so competitive that fun can no longer be the result of hard work, because as soon as you stop work to have fun, someone who kept working displaces you. This is sadly the result of the money market and the creative space being connected.



Yea, but we can't all get away with that. (Thank goodness )

Well, you can buy a house, for example, and furnish it to your taste. Buy one that is mod, so you can re-texture the ugly ceiling. Thereby personalizing it. It doesn't have to be from scratch to be "you". Your funhouse example is only that: an example. And not a very good one. There are plenty of more customizable and personalizable builds for a lot less money out there. You can't throw the whole thing out simply because you can point to a pre-fab which doesn't suit you at all.

And just because you in theory "can" make something doesn't mean that you should. The cost of the time, or of doing work you don't enjoy are factors to consider as well. Really, $20 for a well built house to start from is dirt cheap to me compared to the pain of building one myself. Because, though I would enjoy the sense of accomplishment when I was done, I'd rather spend my time in-world doing other things. Because you know... fun.

Yumi, you seem determined to be glum. I'm sorry about that, but I have to tell you that you're looking at the wrong side of the coin.

Fun *IS* still the result of hard work. For example, I spent much of the last two weeks building a custom skybox for a friend and client. It was fun to do, and she was delighted with the result, which was also fun. I liked the house so much (and got lots of compliments on it from others), that I decided to put it on XStreet for general sale. I haven't sold any yet, but if I do, that will be just one more bit of "fun" from this project.

Am I a big, successful prefab builder? Not hardly. Did I have fun? You bet I did.

Or take another example. Mari loved her blimp so much that it inspired me to announce a Lighter than Air Festival on our sim (Nov 8, noon - 2 SL time, if anyone's interested). I built a plaza for launching balloons from, added an advertising sign for the event, and contacted the two SL ballooning groups. One group owner came over to scope out the place, and gave me a nice ride in his balloon. Hired a DJ for the event. I've put in quite a bit of work on it so far, and much more to come. All of it's been fun...and the event itself will be (I hope!) even more fun.

Will this put Lebettu on the map? Get us a lot of new tenants? I hope so, but probably not. But it's fun in its own right.

In my opinion, this is where you are mistaken. I create because I like to create. And I enjoy my creations because I created them for my own enjoyment. That they may be enjoyed by other people, that other people might pay to enjoy them, is a nice reward, but not the reward I was seeking. I don't care that other people might outdo me in design, style, function, marketing, scripting, or sales.

I'm not in competition with anyone -- although other people might be in competition with me. That's up to them, though.

Be creative because you want to create.

-Atashi

Well, by my definition that means it wasn't "hard" work (I know others may disagree with that). It may have been work, but it wasn't "hard", as that's a perceptual thing. I'm not insulting your productivity there, it's just that "hard" means either difficult or laborious, and if you were having fun it wasn't laborious (it may have been difficult of course)



I'm sure it is, if you can get that kind of attention!

Ok. This is going to sound nasty and aggressive and challenging, but I don't really mean it that way, 'k? It just seems like a problem with this argument.

If this was really true, why would you use SL, as opposed to any number of other packages that let you create more attractive things, with less frustration, and without spending monthly fees for land?

Looking back, it wasn't hard. But at the time, there were parts that were both difficult and laborious. There were times I swore at the prims. Or at myself. Times when I sweated, wondering if I had missed a prim in creating a linkset, or forgot to set the permissions right somewhere. Times I had to go back and start over.

But if it stopped being "fun"...and it did, a couple of times...I went and did something else instead. Mentoring, or talking with friends, or shopping.

Hard work CAN be fun, and often is. It's drudgery that's not. Even so, the end result of even drudgery (going through your store and checking all the vendors, updating them with new products and prices, let's say) can be very satisfying.

Because I like using SL? Because I've learned how to use SL and don't care to learn how to use something else at the moment? Because I like pie? The question is like my dad asking me how I can possibly like eating broccoli - he doesn't like it, so in his world nobody could like it.

You can't quantify personal preference.

And just as an aside, prefacing your question with "If this was really true" comes across as a little insulting, as though you are insinuating that either my opinions are wrong, or I'm trying to deceive you.

-Atashi

I don't think your opinion is wrong or that you're trying to deceive me. But when I've put this argument to them in-world, a lot of people have finally admitted that, yea, ok, the fact that other people will look at their creations _is_ a plus-point of using SL. I don't think they were trying to lie about that, it was just subconscious and that example has brought it to the fore.

It's the same as, way back when I was a newbie, someone said to me "you don't need land to have fun" and so I asked, "well, then why are you paying US$125/month?" It wasn't meant as a challenge, I was genuinely confused (I was trying to decide if I should buy land myself at the time), and she admitted that, yea, actually, everyone's idea of fun is different and for some of them you do need land.

Perhaps without land you can have fun, but with land, you can have more fun?

Perhaps making something for the joy of making it is rewarding. And having others appreciate it is even more rewarding?

Why does it have to be black or white?

Well, um, _they're_ the ones who said "you don't need land to have fun", instead of something along the lines of your first sentence.

I never said I didn't enjoy it when people use or buy my creations - only that this did not drive me.

Maybe some people don't *need* land to enjoy SL. You don't *need* chocolate sauce and a cherry, to enjoy ice cream. But some people might enjoy their icecream more if it has chocolate sauce and a cherry on top.

Honestly, this is all just circular reasoning or pointless debating. Nobody can prove their point because when it comes to fun and feelings, it's all subjective.

My fun is more than yours.

Nyah.



-Atashi

So say something else. If the same thing that happens to you, was happening to me, and I was arguing that it wasn't fun for me (while it is for you), then I'd understand your complaint here. But what I'm saying is that, it _isn't_ happening to me..

My first sentence does not contradict, "you don't need land to have fun." It's rather complementary in fact.

I'm not trying to put words in this person's mouth. But you seem to have a rather predetermined view of things (and it's rather negative), so I'm offering you an alternative to consider.

SL doesn't require you to spend monthly fees for land to create things, so if someone owns land in SL that's for other reasons than creating things. So that can be set aside.

Personally, I haven't found any package that would have allowed me to create half the things I've created in Second Life, even if I expended many times the effort. For example, my Mehve... in SL I was able to create something that looked more like my vision of Mehve than any other versions in SL, including the one I had paid for but which had been abandoned by the creator. I have attempted to create a sculpted version that is "better", using the "better tools" that I have access to, and I've failed. The free tools are either too limited or have too frustrating a user interface (it's my opinion that the person who designed Blender's user interface actively hates anyone else actually using it, it's so bad).

And having sculpted it, programming it to behave like Nausicaa's Mehve, and creating an environment as interesting as SL to play with it, is beyond my capabilities without my spending years more or less duplicating SL.

There is literally nothing available that is anywhere near SL as a place to play with reality the way SL lets me. I've looked for it, hard.

AFTER I created the first version of my Mehve, I got people asking for copies, so I spent a relatively small amount of time cleaning it up and making sure the permissions were right, so I could sell it, but everything I've done since then to improve it have been things that I did to make it look and act more like my vision of the craft. I've completely rewritten the main script from scratch, twice, because I had a cool idea and wanted to see how it works.

And it's cool. It's acrobatic, and aerobatic, and quirky, and takes practice, but at the same time it can do impossible Anime things like dive for the ground and pull out at an angle that would simply send any real glider (powered or not) skidding and tumbling out of control and go skimming across the desert the way Nausicaa does in the beginning of "Valley of the Wind". Which is what I wanted it to do.

In SL I've got tools, I've got stuff other people have done that I can build from, I've got personal expectations and a look and feel that's within reach of my skills, and I don't have to spend thousands of dollars on professional graphics software to get there.

So, really, for me at least, "any number of other packages that let you create more attractive things, with less frustration" simply don't exist.

Really.

What kinds of packages are you thinking of?

... and adding this as an edit, to avoid spamming you out with a zillion responses ...

You didn't ask ME that, when we met in world, because I'd have said "I'm not really paying anything for my land, and I was having fun without land for six months before I bought any... and the play-money that pays for the land is a happy side effect of having fun".

When SL stopped being fun for me, I buggered off for a month or two. As I said in an earlier post, when something stops being fun, go find your fun somewhere else.

When I lost my patience with Linden Lab over a number of issues and logging in just made me depressed, I buggered off for a few more months and picked up 3 new hobbies in RL. Then I came back yet again after I'd cooled off. In the mean time I also have 3 new options to turn to for fun & creativity.

If something isn't happening for you, then go make it happen. Own your destiny, own your feelings, take responsibility for your fun, your happiness, your life.

I can't tell you what the answer will be for you. I can tell you what the answers were for me, and hope you will be able to use my experience to help you in your own quest.

-Atashi

Yes, and I did consider it - I'm sorry, if I didn't make that clear. But you also asked "why does it have to be black and white?", and my answer was, of course it doesn't, but I was giving an example of what someone else said, and what they said _was_ black and white.

And I understand it, but I'm reluctant to follow it, because - as I said - I haven't had the experiences you've had, and had them stop being fun. I'm missing those experiences entirely and it probably would be more fun if I had them. It's not clear how leaving or breaking from SL would enable me to have them when I got back. It isn't as if people would stop ignoring me because I was gone for a while.



But I can't own other people.

OK, fair enough. But what does that amount to? You can't prove by example. If I choose to stop here because it's clear I'm getting nowhere, was it a halfhearted attempt?

Final thought: I remember your claim that the SL economy is ruining creativity in another thread, and you touched on it again here. Could it be that you have a fundamental philosophical issue with SL, and consequently no amount of discussion will help you enjoy it on a personal level?